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01/24/2003 08:05:27 AM · #126
BUT

I think the original question was

an attempt to understand why

some truly photographically flawless (even if you think it's mite boring) pictures get 1's ...

my opinion is that it's either immaturity/ignorance or trying to skew scores.

immaturity/ignorance falls under 'different esthetics' and as annoying as it is, must be allowed to exist, but skewing scores is just plain wrong, under any system of fairness.
01/24/2003 08:33:18 AM · #127
Ok you all have to take this into account when getting upset your photos don't do very well (and thats what this is really.)
and i appologise for repeating others

1. everyones opinions differ
2. if you gave a high mark for every technically good photo you would be giving a huge amount of high marks. It has to be if YOU like it or not when voting on 200+ pics over half of which are great.
3. more voting rimorols would stop many people getting round to voting.
4. this is part of a community, and communitys always have bad with good it makes a balance.
5. Just because someone one a challenge once or you lie their photos doesn't mean everyon is destined to give them 10's
6. Quit winging and get on with it .. i don't know bloody students
7. whatever
8. I am not surprised people spend time trying to sway votes look at the time you all have on your hands to argue about it in the forums.
9. blah blah blah dribble
10. go and take some cool photos for me to give crap marks to would ya.
01/24/2003 08:45:51 AM · #128
Originally posted by digitallywet:


10. go and take some cool photos for me to give crap marks to would ya.


You're not kidding either...with an average score given of 4.2 you sure aren't giving out too many high votes. Are the photos on this site really that bad??
01/24/2003 08:49:57 AM · #129
Originally posted by zadore:

Originally posted by digitallywet:


10. go and take some cool photos for me to give crap marks to would ya.


You're not kidding either...with an average score given of 4.2 you sure aren't giving out too many high votes. Are the photos on this site really that bad??


If you're not going to take someone to task for having a 6.8 voting average, it's not fair take someone to task for having a 4.2 voting average.

-Terry
01/24/2003 09:24:05 AM · #130
Hello, it's me: The git that started this topic. How're we all doing then?

Did Bamaster bring the coffee round like he said he would? I've been sleeping and working...and sleeping some more so I've missed out on a lot of the banter but speed reading over the last couple of pages it seems we're going round and round in circles.

Let's agree to disagree before someone says something to blow everything outa proportion and cause a lot more probs than we started with.

As someone said a few pages ago, it's not really affecting the scores as such, the bestest images are still winning, and as someone else said most of the comments we get during voting are great (well mine are anyway, thanks) so I vote we drop it, whaddya say?

And next time I'll just keep my hands OFF the keyboard when I get a bee in my bonnet about something.

Message edited by author 2003-01-24 09:25:22.
01/24/2003 10:19:02 AM · #131
*ahem!*

Her name was Lola, she was a showgirl. With yellow feathers in her hair, and a dress cut down to there. She would merengue and do the cha-cha...
01/24/2003 10:19:32 AM · #132
Just to throw this in at the end, probably pushing this thread to its seventh page - you do realise how much of a huge impact these '1' votes have ?

Suppose I was scoring 6.6 after 200 votes, and some troll/ different viewed free thinker/ person trying to make themselves win/ someone entirely entitled to dislike my picture/ felt I didn't meet the challenge/etc/etc/etc person came along and decided to vote a '1' on my entry. My score would dive by a whopping 0.027

Now suppose, more realisticly my score was bumping along at an average of 4 for those 200 votes, the 1 vote would skew my score by 0.014 points.

Is this really worth getting so worked up about ? Especially if the next voter was Lisae and she (lovely that she is) voted my picture a 10, and then skewed my score the other way by another whole 0.014

I'm kinda confused what all the fuss is about, but then I don't play the lottery for much the same sorts of reasons.
01/24/2003 11:58:54 AM · #133
See, this is where you lose thicko's like me. Math was never my favourite subject. Music on the other hand was: Bamaster, I'm gonna make you a star!
01/24/2003 01:46:28 PM · #134
Originally posted by hokie:

Once again, I bet this all would be a moot point if everyone knew how everyone else voted.

I haven't really seen anyone address this point yet other than maybe Karen and John.


What would happen if we all new what everyone else voted is that people are going to copy that behaviour to not drop out of the group they think they belong to.
Hmm, I think this is a five, but Setzler and Gordon gave it an eight. I'll give an eight too, else I look stupid.

And I already said that I am not prepared to tell you why I voted something. I don't have time for that and I will never be prepared to make time for that. If you wan't to know for sure if your image has major flaws, ask a Critique Club critique.

And if I will be flooded with mails like "why did you give me a one/two/three/four/five/six?" I will point my Private Message link to a hotmail account that I never read and vote like I always do.

What also could happen is that people are going to lobby for higher votes: "Hey ......, that's my picture you gave a five, I thought we were friends, can't you make it a 7?"

And people might not vote fair when their vote becomes public in the end. They don't wan't their name associated with low votes, what will other people think of them? Let's give that image I think is a three a five.

It is my opinion that the anonymous entry and anonymous vore are the strong points of this site. The image I entered is judged for what it is worth.
It is not biased by what people think of me when they read my forum posts, my old usenet posts, my site, the chatbox, other work or even how I look on my profile picture.
It is not biased by fear (if any) for me not liking someone when I see they give me a low vote. It is not biased by fear for a shitload of "why why why" mails.
I would even go as far as to say that non-anonymous voting is an invasion of my privacy.

I also think that giving the names of the commenters during the challenge was a mistake. Many times I am tempted to sent a PM with "you saw that wrong!", with in the back of my mind the only reason to sent that PM would be to boost my score. I am sure it happens a lot.

Like others have said before me; When you take a good picture, it will come out on top anyway. When you take a crappy picture it will end up at the bottom.


01/24/2003 02:03:48 PM · #135
I think 1 is there for a very good reason. I rarely give a 1 but some pics do deserve it. To me, when a picture truly doesn't meet the challenge (ex: a yellow flower on a red background in a "blue" challenge), to me that's a 1. Hey, it might be an ok photo, maybe even a great one, but DPC is not only about taking great shots. It's about FINDING, through the theme and your imagination, the great shot. Submitting a photo just for the sake of submitting..... 1 form me. I could give you a clear example in the current Road Sign challenge but then some one might get offended. :o) Woof woof.

woops.... still not used to these forums.... I was replying to the last message on the 1st page of the thread. :oP Silly me.

Message edited by author 2003-01-24 14:10:32.
01/24/2003 03:40:35 PM · #136
Originally posted by kosmikkreeper:

I think 1 is there for a very good reason. I rarely give a 1 but some pics do deserve it. To me, when a picture truly doesn't meet the challenge (ex: a yellow flower on a red background in a "blue" challenge), to me that's a 1. Hey, it might be an ok photo,

What if it were titled Negative Flora? I don't ever see myself giving an "OK photo" anything less than a 2 or three. As a practical matter, I hardly ever see anything here which is even a 3 in my evaluation, much less a 1.

I'm not suggesting you change your scoring criteria, but that since "meets the challenge" is so subjective, I don't give it as much weight on the negative side.
01/24/2003 03:58:14 PM · #137
What an intense waste of bandwidth this all is.

My suggestion: I will vote in any way I want, and you vote any way you want. OK?
01/24/2003 05:00:11 PM · #138
Here we go again but I gotta just mention this....I was looking at KOSMICKEEPER's profile. That "Love in BW" image is absolutely superb but some mug gave it a 2.

See, this is a prime example of what annoys me: How can anyone rate that photo a 2 for crying out loud? Even if you don't consider it a superb photograph, you HAVE to admit that a 2 score is an INSULT!

I defy anyone to defend a 2 vote for that picture, and I'd like to know what you think.

Why anyone would subscribe to this site simply to insult the pictures that photographers have obviously put their heart and soul into is beyond me.

No, this discussion is not a waste of bandwidth as JAK suggested, and sure you can vote how you want, it's a free world after all, but please take a little time out to consider how you vote. Back up a 1 or 2 vote with an explanation as to WHY you scored so low. That would make interesting reading.

Yes, I'm passionate about photography. I'd like to think that we all were....

Message edited by author 2003-01-24 17:06:54.
01/24/2003 05:17:26 PM · #139
Originally posted by Marklane:


I defy anyone to defend a 2 vote for that picture, and I'd like to know what you think.


I'll bite
<devilís_advocate>

A portrait should be of one person, this has two subjects.
It is bad form to cut off the subject's head.
A good portrait must have good eye contact between the camera and subject. In particular a good catch-light is key to a good picture.
Is that a third person's hand there ? It is detached and hanging into the frame.
</devilís_advocate>

Just some points from the several 'guides to good pictures' books that I've read, that this picture does differently. People are entitled to their own views on things. I'd be more freaked out if we didn't have people voting at (both of) the ends of the bell curve.
01/24/2003 05:20:14 PM · #140
So you think that a 2 score is justified?
01/24/2003 05:25:54 PM · #141
Originally posted by Marklane:

So you think that a 2 score is justified?


I think it is justifiable, which is a different thing. I wouldn't vote it a 2, but there are plenty of scales of 'very good to very bad' where it could merit a 2.

Take the scale as being 'does it conform to the Kodak Guide to good Portraits' guidelines - on that scale it would be very bad. Mind you, the main subject doesn't have 70's pornstarlette hair either, which also seems to be high on their 'good' list.

I'm just saying that because people happen to disagree with you or me, or vote with an entirely different idea of what good and bad is, doesn't mean that they shouldn't. There isn't any more guidance than 'very bad' and 'very good' given. Anything else is up to interpretation and in general the good pictures win and the bad pictures don't, based on the publically held notions of good and bad. This doesn't mean we should force everyone to agree - otherwise a picture that scored say 5, would only have votes of perhaps 4, 5 or 6 - after all, anyone who voted it a 3 or a 7, or god forbid a 10, would obviously be voting entirely bizzarely and should be ostracised immediately. This is just about one step removed from the debate in this thread. I like the fact that people have different ideas about what makes a good or enjoyable photo. Life would be really dull otherwise.
01/24/2003 05:27:55 PM · #142
I also think there is an underlying assumption that the people who vote 1 or 2 on these 'good' pictures, do it across the board. I don't know that that is true or not - they might be voting 10s on all the pictures the general voting population think are terrible - there are certainly some vocal people in the forum who obviously vote differently from how I do, so I could quite believe that people with an entirely inverted idea of what a good picture is exist. People do buy Anne Geddes' pictures after all.
01/24/2003 05:37:05 PM · #143
I've had it.

I've said all I've got to say and that's my lot, nothing else to add.



01/24/2003 07:27:09 PM · #144
Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by Marklane:


I defy anyone to defend a 2 vote for that picture, and I'd like to know what you think.


I'll bite
<devilís_advocate>

"A portrait should be of one person, this has two subjects.
......."</devilís_advocate>


Actually, a portrait does not need to contain just one person. I realize you are playing devil's advocate, and mentioning maybe how someone else would look at it, but thought I'd toss in my 2 cents. :0)
01/24/2003 07:32:57 PM · #145
Originally posted by Marklane:

I've had it.

I've said all I've got to say and that's my lot, nothing else to add.


Sorry Marklane. I understood. Chin up! :0)
01/24/2003 08:16:30 PM · #146
Originally posted by Karen Bryan:

Sorry Marklane. I understood. Chin up! :0)


I think a lot of us understood the point very well (not just Karen); many of us just didn't agree. Chin up to all of us!
01/25/2003 12:00:26 PM · #147
I'll tell you what I think would be a neat to know... my average vote received by the day. Seems pretty consistent that my scores start off really low, then continually, gradually improve.

Maybe many voters are like me, and revisit the scores and almost always bump them up after a second look. :shrug:
01/25/2003 02:21:17 PM · #148
I think it would be interesting to see the standard deviation for each voter as an average on their profile page. We already see their average vote given and received. The standard deviation, if high enough, would indicate that a person is a) a visionary or b) visually impaired.
01/25/2003 02:33:58 PM · #149
Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by Marklane:


I defy anyone to defend a 2 vote for that picture, and I'd like to know what you think.


I'll bite
<devilís_advocate>

A portrait should be of one person, this has two subjects.
It is bad form to cut off the subject's head.
A good portrait must have good eye contact between the camera and subject. In particular a good catch-light is key to a good picture.
Is that a third person's hand there ? It is detached and hanging into the frame.
</devilís_advocate>

Just some points from the several 'guides to good pictures' books that I've read, that this picture does differently. People are entitled to their own views on things. I'd be more freaked out if we didn't have people voting at (both of) the ends of the bell curve.


Dear Gordon.... thanx for being the devil's advocate on my photo. ;o)

I just have one thing to say.... all rules are made to be broken. :o)

Peace!
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