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01/23/2003 06:00:30 PM · #101
I didn't miss the point Karen, you just don't agree with what I said. How many threads have you seen That image got 20 10's, how can that be???
My point is, if you are going to argue that altruistic nature of blind voting both sides must be commented on, not just the negative. To only comment on the negative votes is to take a one sided approach to an argument or to complain NOT analyze.

I did read the thread and understand it fully. It is just another thread here that doesn't address photography and only address why images don't get higher scores NOT what needs to be done to get the scores higher. I think threads like this do a dis-service to people because it gives them the mantra "well my images didn't do well because people score badly" and not "I need to do better". It is an out, an excuse.

How about the ones that get voted real high that don't deserve it??? Any discussions about them? I haven't seen one in my short tenure here. And why not? Because that would be construed as bad sportsmanship or in other words... complaining and whining. No difference on the converse side.

Hey and let's not also lose sight of the fact that this is a little online contest that has no rewards accept the acknowledgement of your peers here. Most here tell you what a great image you have anyhow, so what do a few low scores matter any how?

Dave
01/23/2003 06:03:35 PM · #102
Hokie -- that's what's meant by the term "chilling effect." I think folks can be easily harrassed within site guilelines, and it would certainly detract from the flow of photographic information in the forums.
Besides, I think the place for that argument should be within the photos comment thread. Let someone who voted a popular photo a 1 enter a post-vote comment and carry on from there.
01/23/2003 06:06:34 PM · #103
Originally posted by Davenit:

How about the ones that get voted real high that don't deserve it??? Any discussions about them? I haven't seen one in my short tenure here. And why not? Because that would be construed as bad sportsmanship or in other words... complaining and whining. No difference on the converse side.
Dave

I would be interested in reading some critical reviews of high-scoring photos. Want to suggest a couple and we'll each try one?

Message edited by author 2003-01-23 18:06:53.
01/23/2003 06:07:18 PM · #104
Originally posted by Davenit:



Hey and let's not also lose sight of the fact that this is a little online contest that has no rewards accept the acknowledgement of your peers here. Most here tell you what a great image you have anyhow, so what do a few low scores matter any how?

Dave


I have been here as long as Karen and have read most of her forum posts. I think she has one of the best perspectives on this site about photography and what it means to her.

If her comments seem to come from frustration...I can relate to that myself...but I fear not much will change in regards to this threads topic. This kind of thread has been dicussed a lot.
01/23/2003 06:10:49 PM · #105
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Hokie -- that's what's meant by the term "chilling effect." I think folks can be easily harrassed within site guilelines, and it would certainly detract from the flow of photographic information in the forums.
Besides, I think the place for that argument should be within the photos comment thread. Let someone who voted a popular photo a 1 enter a post-vote comment and carry on from there.


General...I often agree (probably 90% of the time) with you but I have felt this way long enough now to have to disagree with you this time.

But then again...I cannot relate to this "chilling effect". I know what you are referring to but don't really care cater to those folks who might be chilled. But thats just me...not to say this is a majority opinion by any stretch. :-)
01/23/2003 06:13:27 PM · #106
Hey, maybe whenever we give out a 1, a big scarlet "1" is added to our profiles for that week. :?P
01/23/2003 06:19:03 PM · #107
Hokie,
Well you have a good point about whether to cater to their idiosyncracies, but think that this is one of those cases where we have to let go the occasional "guilty" party for the greater good (convenience) of the innocent. It's not important enough (to me) to be worth the enormous distraction.

Maybe we could try a special "Open Vote" challenge. Parse the comment field and reject all votes where the comment field doesn't start with an integer matching the recorded vote (e.g. if you vote an 8 the comment would read "8 -- This photo would have been a 9 if..." or even "8").

Message edited by author 2003-01-23 18:20:20.
01/23/2003 06:29:17 PM · #108
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Hokie,
Well you have a good point about whether to cater to their idiosyncracies, but think that this is one of those cases where we have to let go the occasional "guilty" party for the greater good (convenience) of the innocent. It's not important enough (to me) to be worth the enormous distraction.

Maybe we could try a special "Open Vote" challenge. Parse the comment field and reject all votes where the comment field doesn't start with an integer matching the recorded vote (e.g. if you vote an 8 the comment would read "8 -- This photo would have been a 9 if..." or even "8").


I would love to see a "test run" of an open vote.

And when I say I don't care to cater to the sensitivities of other voters I don't expect for a second for most people to understand or agree. I fully expect people to consider me "inconsiderate" I don't agree with them but then that will probalby have to be one of those times we have to "agree to disagree".

But then again I teach graphic design at the high school level, work in a regional ad department and I am surrounded by a continuos flow of open criticism, debate and group review on photography all day long...I probably am a bit desensitized :-D

Message edited by author 2003-01-23 18:30:47.
01/23/2003 06:30:59 PM · #109
Sorry if this was discussed, I did fast forward a bit, but an idea came to me.
We are able to see every voter's average score given (still thinking this idea out a bit). How about....nope it just doesn't work. (Something along the line of a note to low average ppl, asking them to be more considerate, but that's dumb...)
O.K. how about this: Vote a 1 or 2 and no comment and the system puts in a No Comment comment for you. This would post the low voter's name at the very least. No, this leaves open the e-mail storm that so many complain about.
See, Drew and Lang seem to have done their homework. Changing the voting system as currently laid out just changes to scale, not the perspectives of the viewers.
I have a new twist on photographer's comments to be included on the voting page. Oh, that's too complicated to work and depends too much on other's time. (Basically, you tell another member your photo concept and have them write a short preamble for it.)

Sorry, I think as I write, but in this case, I thought the process might be as important as the words.

Good luck!
01/23/2003 06:32:33 PM · #110
General and Hokie, I have only been here a few weeks and don't have nearly the history you all have. In my time here I have seen comments on borders, voting, what is a landscape shot, voting lower for buildings in landscape shots, DQ'ing for a 1 pixel border, etc. I have tried starting a couple posts on topics of interest like Dodging and Buring (8 comments) and Golden thirds vs. Golden mean (2 comments) which are basic photographic concepts and techniques and there is no interest. Those things are fun to talk about in my mind and will make better photographers out of all of us. But topics about DQ'ing images will get 5 pages of stuff writen but anything photography get's nothing. That is frustrating, not that some lunies go around giving good images 1's, 2's or 3's!!!

To sit around and wonder why people are scoring images so low is moot. To try and figure out what their criteria is is moot. They do it, that's all. Make the image killer through discussion and understanding so if you get 10 low votes who cares, you got 150 high ones.

I think we can all make a difference by starting to add more about photography and less about this crap, it has zero to do with imagery...

Dave
01/23/2003 06:43:40 PM · #111
Davenit...

I agree in general that to talk about this is not nearly as productive as photographic questions. But I think there is room for all of it.

Most of the technical questions can be answered on your own by visiting the endless sites, goofing around on your own with your camera and software, searching the incredible wealth of books on the subject in most bookstores or best of all getting inolvedwith local photographers.

The only way you can address DP Challenge site stuff is here in the forums.
01/23/2003 06:45:22 PM · #112
davenit, I agree with you .. wanted to post it but then thought .. whatever ...
But it's true that we have more threads about how the site is working, Rules, DQed and every thing than about pictures.
Lionel
"Better one big nose than two small"

Message edited by author 2003-01-23 18:46:38.
01/23/2003 06:59:00 PM · #113
Originally posted by Davenit:

I think we can all make a difference by starting to add more about photography and less about this crap, it has zero to do with imagery...

Dave


Dave,

Strong words but I have to agree. I've been trying to comment on ever submission this challenge (~100 comments thus far) since I figure this is the best contribution I can make. It's a shame I've only received 6 comments on my picture - perhaps you are right that people need to refocus their energies.

Now I have to try and finishing commenting on all submissions today before taking a week off.
01/23/2003 07:03:41 PM · #114
Hokie, I agree. People should always air an opinion and try to get something changed that is wrong. Right on. I will fight right there with you. What is in such great need of change here and will it ever end??? What a few low scores? A one pixel border? A house in a landscape shot? DQ'ing someone? IMO it isn't nearly as important as learning how in the helll Jacko got that blueberry shot a bunch of weeks back!!! That is one of my all time favorite shots. I could read forever about John's water drop shots. That is important to me not that some vote my image low. I am secure enough in knowing when I have a good shot and when I don't. And once these "things" are solved some new and earth shaking issue will come along to cut this board to the quick. It is a never ending cycle. As long as there is voting, and ribbons there will be things to complain about.

This will be my last post on one of these type threads because I am only supporting the crap I am discouraging. LOL. Everyone stop clapping... LOL I view this thread as a crutch and detrimental to the learning process. I have entered 6 challenges. I have 3 top 10 finishes and 1 third. 4% of my votes in my top 10's have been 3 or below. Inconsequential. The percentage goes up dramatically in those that finished outside the top 10. As well it should. Shame on me for not doing better. I will learn from those images.

It all stems back to taking an image that is technically good, true to your vision, and has "wow" factor. The good votes will far outweigh the bad.

Thanks for talking, really enjoyed it...

Dave
01/23/2003 07:23:45 PM · #115
Why would any one give timj351 a 1,2 or 3 for last weeks photo? I think that some people are afraid to leave their little box and look at a picture as art when in fact their own pictures are 3's. And it could be that people get mad because they know that person will place high so they give them a low score to help their own score out. Yes it is sad. I sure hope no one does that.

Tim shot an excellent photo. I can't see anyone giving him a 1-4. Hmmmm.....just don't see it. Maybe because they don't care for b/w. Well then they shouldn't be voting on photos, because it is part of the art of photography.
01/23/2003 07:41:08 PM · #116
dpc needs to get its members together for a huge party to settle this crap once and for all, in the boxing ring. then all these petty squables will cease forever
01/23/2003 09:08:15 PM · #117
O, my head hurts. I cannot however abstain from burdening you all with my own personal method of vote categorization..
1) This is SO BAD it was obviously a malicious submission.
2) Reserved for suspeced maliciousness and/or very bad taste or humor
3) Worse than the average snapshot, and/or VERY CLICHE
4) Snapshot quality
5) Average. Has nice attributes, along with some obvious shortcomings
6) Above average technically and artistically
7) Way above average, only minor digs
8) WOW! Wish I'd taken that.
9) I can't find much of anything wrong; only aesthetic quibbles
10) You are God.

Note that I do vote 1 & 2 now & then, and I think we all have seen some photos that are just obnoxoius bad, and intended to be that way.
Since I am an agnostic, I have NO idea if i will ever give a 10. LOL
01/23/2003 10:25:45 PM · #118
My opinion of all this is simple :)

Stupid people shouldn't breed !
01/23/2003 11:42:38 PM · #119
I agree that "growing" threads like this seems like a waste of time, adn we should be expending our energies on taking pictures, or at the very least voting and commenting. I suspect, though, the truth of the matter is, the ones responding to these threads ARE the ones at least voting and commenting. It is a public forum, but used by only a small percentage of hte membership/users of DPC. I also suspect, but have absolutely NO proof, that the people that consistently vote 1's and 2's on the majority of the pictures (whether because they are maliciously trying to pump their own position, they just don't like pictures, or they have no monitor on their computer, whatever) probably will never see all of these well thought out, valid points.

Again, and I can't remember if it was here, or another thread, but solution is so simple its pathetic. Let there be a button or something that indicates it is MY picture and thus gives me a 9 or 10 (9 if you just hate the thing.) And since General asked, he gets the 8's. The rest of you fine folks can have all of the 7s and below. Yea, it makes for a boring homepage, but oh well, that is the price to pay! :-)

<karmat has her tongue surgically removed from her cheek,now>
01/24/2003 12:26:14 AM · #120
Originally posted by GeneralE:


LisaE & the Trolls might work as a band name though...


YES!

Davenit - if you've only been here a few weeks, I can understand that you would have the impression that all the discussion here is whining about the site mechanics. That's part of the culture of this place, and it always will be. How do you create a contest site around art and expect it to make sense? People all have their own ways of rationalising such an odd situation. It brings out all kinds of interesting facets of human nature. And they all conflict in the forums :P.

But there are other types of discussion from time to time. I used to post Art Appreciation threads regularly, and I'm really proud of the discussions they generated. All the old ones are linked in that latest one if you want to read them. JMSetzler used to post a lot of photos in the forums and ask for critiques, often without giving away who took them. Some of the photography discussion in the forums has probably died down because he's so busy with the Critique Club now, but then, I think that has increased the quality of the photography discussions going on elsewhere, it's just not in the forums.
01/24/2003 01:39:30 AM · #121
So there you have it. For all our discussions and disagreements, for all our low and high scoring variances, and our mighty soap-box discussion thread soliloquies, we're just one big hairy freaking picture snapping happy family. We'll always bitch about the system, and yet always come back for more.

And so Now, Back to the challenge. Hmmmm.... think square...
01/24/2003 01:49:31 AM · #122
Originally posted by Moondoggie:

For all our discussions and disagreements, for all our low and high scoring variances, and our mighty soap-box discussion thread soliloquies, we're just one big hairy freaking picture snapping happy family.


This deserves to go under the heading on the front page :).
01/24/2003 04:46:39 AM · #123
Right can I just check I'm still allowed to give a score of 1 to a picture of a dog in a challenge about road signs?
01/24/2003 06:47:47 AM · #124
Originally posted by paynekj:

Originally posted by David Ey:

If a photo shows obvious political bias, is it ok to vote accordingly?


I try to be as objective as possible, but I think we all have limits and it's almost inevitable that some degree of bias will affect our voting.

What does intrigue me, however, is how you determine political bias? What photo are you seeing this bias in?


An example might be a comment that I once got, "I didn't think twice about rating this photo a 1."

That and the other 78 ones that I got along with 2 tens pretty much shows you how people are affected by their emotions more than their eyes. No matter how much I like or dislike the subject, I always try to consider the photographic qualities of the picture in my vote.



01/24/2003 07:49:31 AM · #125
I find it worrying that people here actually proposed punishing anyone who's opions clashed with the majority. When we vote, we have no idea how well the photo is actually doing, I'm really happy when it turns out my vote was off from what most people thought. Remember, there are many aesthetics, not just one, and many factors to take into consideration.
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