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01/22/2003 05:39:41 PM · #26
The issue of multi-level/multi-aspect voting has been raised countless times in the past. I'm not necessarily against the idea but the following concerns were raised:

- Not all voters use the same criteria
- Not all voters give each criterion the same weight.
- The amount of additional time necessary to vote would be substantial enough to prevent some users from completing voting.
- The amount of additional time necessary to vote would cut into comments.

It's also worth mentioning that a poll was conducted on this in Sept/Oct 2002. The most common response was "1-10 Generic voting (like now)" at 38%. 35% said "Multi-level voting (technical/artistic/challenge)," with the remainder saying "I'd like multi-level voting, but I can't imagine trying to vote." So, even though a majority of users liked the concept of multi-level voting, many were concerned that the benefit would be outweighed by the cost in such a system.

I just wanted to throw that out for discussion.

-Terry
01/22/2003 05:39:48 PM · #27
In my opinion, a 1 is a very offensive gesture. I have never given a one to any photo no matter how bad it was. The photographer has obviously given a little thought to his photo, whatever it is, and I find that deserves a little more credit, even if it does turn out bad.
01/22/2003 05:43:04 PM · #28
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by karmat:

The one solution or change I think I could live with, and not find a great deal of fault with, is if my pictures are tagged with a special "vote this a 9 or 10 (I will allow for you not to like it, thus the 9)" button, and the rest have a 7 or below. We don't need 8. :-)

Why are you picking on my favorite number? Can't I have 8, so I can at least get the red ribbon?



ok, general gets the 8's.
problem solved!
01/22/2003 05:46:20 PM · #29
Thank you! Maybe I'll qualify for a brown bag-head now...
01/22/2003 05:55:55 PM · #30
zzzzzzzzzz....uh? wha...? zzzzzzzzzzzz.
01/22/2003 06:03:17 PM · #31
Originally posted by kiwiness:

In my opinion, a 1 is a very offensive gesture. I have never given a one to any photo no matter how bad it was. The photographer has obviously given a little thought to his photo, whatever it is, and I find that deserves a little more credit, even if it does turn out bad.


Put well, kiwiness!

Message edited by author 2003-01-22 18:06:49.
01/22/2003 06:03:17 PM · #32
... coming through, coming through... hot coffee, hot coffee...
01/22/2003 06:04:11 PM · #33
I started to write a long letter talking about my voting strategy/ideology. In the end, I deleted it all -- I'm already enough of a wind bag.

What it comes down to is that I'm not trying to be mean, I just vote the scale and it tends to fall in a bell curve. A few 1s and a few 10s and the rest of the pack centered more or less around the 5 range.

More important, however: who cares? We may disagree with some of the votes here and there, and we may all have different voting scales and systems, but given the nature of the site, the current system, as it stands, is honest and fair and it works. Trollish behaviour is minimized and good photos rise to the top while poorer photos gravitate to the bottom. The actual ranking may not always be what we'd agree with, but then how many of you wanted Bush as President and how many of you were happy with Clinton. Differences happen -- learn to work with them. :-)
01/22/2003 06:04:41 PM · #34
Originally posted by Marklane:

zzzzzzzzzz....uh? wha...? zzzzzzzzzzzz.


<sotto voce> There, there Mark...it's just a bad dream...back to sleep now </sotto voce>

Message edited by author 2003-01-22 18:07:27.
01/22/2003 06:37:23 PM · #35
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Why is everyone so opposed to freedom of expression? ..............
First they came for the people who voted a 1, and I said nothing, for I never understood what they could possibly be seeing. Then they came for those who voted a 2, and I said nothing, because I usually disagreed with them anyway....and when they finally came for me, there was no one left to speak up at all...
--adapted from a "lefty" fable


I like to watch these conversations, and then recall that some of the same people who complain about 1 & 2 scores also say they are here primarily learn.
I will accept a 1 if the scorer then adds a critique as to why he/she thought is was poor (yet to happen). Then I learn something.
I then ignore the other 1's as I feel that they have more problems than I have (and I have my share). At the same time, I don't complain about the few 10's I get - even if I don't believe it myself.
I would rather get a lower score on a photo and a few pointers as how to improve it. This is what keeps me coming back.

So my advice - ignore the 1's that don't come with a good set of comments. Life's too short to worry about it.
01/22/2003 07:13:21 PM · #36
i also agree that having to vote on more than one aspect of a photo is time consuming.

personally what i'd like to see is required comments of a certain lenght. especially the 1's, 2's, etc. there are sites that have it setup as the only way the vote/review will go through when you click the submit button is if there are x number of words. yes, this might take a little more time, but if the vote is sincere i think people won't have a hard time expressing their view, whether it's a high or low score. and for the people that are coming and just clicking a 1 for the heck of it, they might not even bother, or their comment will probably show they're doing it just to lower the scores.

i just think it would be a bit hard for a person to evaluate his/her work with 20 comments saying "i don't like it", or even on the other end, "i like it".
01/22/2003 07:15:01 PM · #37
ha ha what if everyone was required to comment/critique if they scored lower than 3 or higher than 7 or the score wouldn't count!!; or better yet, if scoring lower than 4 or higher than 6

...bet the scores would change.

On a more serious note, sometimes I have a difficult time thinking of something positive or negative to say about a photo, or think that maybe my thoughts might be "wrong". Usually I make a comment anyway, and risk it; but I know sometimes I am hesitant just so I don't look "stupid" or make a criticism when one wasn't deserved.
01/22/2003 07:33:39 PM · #38
How about eliminating the scores of ones, twos and threes. So if someone is going to vote they have to start with four or above. Of course that will last until someone complains about getting a couple of fours and then we will have to eliminate the fours and five will have to be the lowest number. Of course someone will complain about fives............................


//www.pbase.com/wheeler1992/wheeler1992
01/22/2003 07:37:16 PM · #39
THAT is exactly the problem, as illustrated by the General's fable.

On PhotoBlink one is allowed a range in which to vote without comment, generally 6 through 8. If you want to vote 1 - 5 or 9 and 10 then you MUST comment. However, the problem has simply moved upward, because the senior members of PB are now appalled when they receive scores of 6!
01/22/2003 07:37:28 PM · #40
Given some of the strong remarks here, I took the opportunity to review the voting for a couple dozen images at the top, middle and bottom of the pack for the landscape challenge. As a statistician, I see absolutely no evidence that anyone is intentionally "buggering up" the results. the distributions of votes are as smooth as can be expected, and there are no large "tails" on the distibutions. At most, a few show a hint of bimodality, probably evidence of a shot that strongly divides it's viewers between "love" and hate".
Overall, I am *very* impressed with the restraint that the voters show here, neither slathering on praise nor panning in the extreme without strong justification.
01/22/2003 08:53:09 PM · #41
Originally posted by kirbic:

Given some of the strong remarks here, I took the opportunity to review the voting for a couple dozen images at the top, middle and bottom of the pack for the landscape challenge. As a statistician, I see absolutely no evidence that anyone is intentionally "buggering up" the results. the distributions of votes are as smooth as can be expected, and there are no large "tails" on the distibutions. At most, a few show a hint of bimodality, probably evidence of a shot that strongly divides it's viewers between "love" and hate".
Overall, I am *very* impressed with the restraint that the voters show here, neither slathering on praise nor panning in the extreme without strong justification.


Thanks for taking the time to do that; I'm sure it was quite time consuming. It is reassuring to know (if I am understanding you correctly) that vote tampering is such a minor problem as to be not statistically significant here.

-Terry
01/22/2003 10:08:16 PM · #42
I don't think vote-tampering was the primary motivator of (this version of) this thread...more a complaint that certain low votes SEEM more like an insult than a critical evaluation, and being resentful of what might be considered unacceptable rudeness.

Message edited by author 2003-01-22 22:08:28.
01/22/2003 11:30:44 PM · #43
I basically agree with the General. While it is possible for a low-life to give a 1 to a very good photo in order to game the votes, the top photo should still come out on top. That is unless a lot of people are gaming the system. A score of 1 will hurt a photo that is barely averaging 6 more than it will a top contender. The six isn't going to win anyway, so the outcome hasn't changed. I'd say leave the system alone and profile the slammer.
01/23/2003 12:53:21 AM · #44
There are algorithms for this that will throw away "nonsense" votes by looking at the bell curve, overall voting pattern for each photo (in this case). Then the algorithm disregards the upper and lower x% of the votes. This site should incorporate that. I think it already might, not sure.

Example, if the "bell curve" leans toward the low end of the curve (3's, 4's, etc) then it would remove less of the WAY low scores and remove more of the HIGH end scores, and vise versa... A higher rated pic (say 6's and 7's) would tend to remove more of the very low end scores but not as many very high scores. Really simple. :)
01/23/2003 01:34:18 AM · #45
This thread happens every week. Make a forum for "voting discussion" or something! Maybe then people will see that they're just rehashing a very old argument.

I'm glad, though, that a statistician has brought some sanity to it this time. I guess a lot of people don't understand the idea that in most areas of life people's tendencies form a fairly smooth bell curve. When most people vote on a photo that scores really well here, they go into the fat bit in the middle of the distribution. There usually isn't much of a tail at the high end for really popuplar voters, so a lot of people are giving it 9s and 10s as well. But there is ALWAYS going to be a tail of people at the low end who just don't "fit in" and have a non-mainstream opinion of the photo. They'll give it low scores, not because they're malicious, just because they're different. They're "outlyers".

In all areas of life, the people in the fat bit in the middle want the people on the ends to conform, and this site is no different.
01/23/2003 06:22:32 AM · #46
A friend told me yesterday that my Bu The Lake got 4 10s.
Whe don't we let the admin handle the Troll vote.
This is endless discussion. Now we might be done with the borders, we're back with the 1.

Why don't we just 'hide' the results below 3 ? The voters will be happy, and photograph would be happy, and the we will save 2 lines on the photograph results page, allowing us to allow 2 additional borders but at the bottom of the picture only, where we saved the 2 lines. Even if we do not count anymore, 2 additional borders below the picture cannot hurt, they would help to support the picture and give it more stability.
01/23/2003 06:47:29 AM · #47
Why dont we restrict the scoring to 9 or 10, that will please most people!
01/23/2003 06:59:49 AM · #48
Oh Happy days!



Message edited by author 2003-01-23 07:09:46.
01/23/2003 07:18:00 AM · #49
If a photo shows obvious political bias, is it ok to vote accordingly?
01/23/2003 07:36:58 AM · #50
Originally posted by David Ey:

If a photo shows obvious political bias, is it ok to vote accordingly?


I try to be as objective as possible, but I think we all have limits and it's almost inevitable that some degree of bias will affect our voting.

What does intrigue me, however, is how you determine political bias? What photo are you seeing this bias in?
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