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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> "Let's stomp on Constitutional Amendments" thread
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06/08/2013 05:53:33 PM · #226
Originally posted by blindjustice:


Well stated, but conservatives love to "fix the system" especially financially...


Would be nice if that were true. Fact is that the "fixing" aspect of things is usually done on the backs of the little people.

Ray
06/08/2013 06:54:15 PM · #227
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by blindjustice:


Well stated, but conservatives love to "fix the system" especially financially...


Would be nice if that were true. Fact is that the "fixing" aspect of things is usually done on the backs of the little people.

Ray


I actually meant "fix the system" as in "game" the system, as in "the fix is in." And you are correct, on the backs of the little people.
06/08/2013 10:55:16 PM · #228
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Don, I think that is dangerously simplistic thinking. I don't agree with it at all.


I bet you often feel that way when people are arguing about politics. You get frustrated, because you can't accept that people who define the problem differently will never agree on solutions. The world really is polarized, or rather, fractured.

Yes it is dangerous and simplistic to try to figure out why people are disagreeing. But I get bored with the constant circling of the electromagnet.
06/08/2013 11:05:48 PM · #229
Originally posted by posthumous:

people who define the problem differently will never agree on solutions. The world really is polarized, or rather, fractured.


In the bad old days of cigar filled rooms and backroom deals, a conservative and a liberal would sneak back there and make a deal. Now we live in a world where the lights are always on and the performers never leave the stage. People who disagree can find common ground, if they are more worried about fixing the problem than defending their turf. It may begin to happen more when there is more anger at the entropy than with those who compromise.
06/08/2013 11:31:27 PM · #230
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by posthumous:

people who define the problem differently will never agree on solutions. The world really is polarized, or rather, fractured.


In the bad old days of cigar filled rooms and backroom deals, a conservative and a liberal would sneak back there and make a deal. Now we live in a world where the lights are always on and the performers never leave the stage. People who disagree can find common ground, if they are more worried about fixing the problem than defending their turf. It may begin to happen more when there is more anger at the entropy than with those who compromise.


You're talking about legislators. They're quite used to abandoning ideals. I'm talking about people who actually believe in something.

How will I come to an agreement with someone who thinks a fetus has an eternal soul?

How will I come to an agreement with someone who thinks America is God's chosen country?

How will I come to an agreement with someone who thinks homosexuality is a mortal sin... someone who even believes in mortal sins?

How will I come to an agreement with someone who believes something must be true because he feels it so strongly?
06/09/2013 01:10:56 AM · #231
Civil discussion and finding common ground. Putting yourself in their shoes and compromise. Like any argument between two people, you can only control what YOU do.
06/09/2013 03:21:01 AM · #232
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Civil discussion and finding common ground. Putting yourself in their shoes and compromise. Like any argument between two people, you can only control what YOU do.


And as you are doing your doings, watch out for the big boot that will be stomping you. Since the beginning of time man could not agree about anything. There is only common ground when so allowed by the one in power. All of a sudden, power makes sense. And knowledge is power. Not wrong, not right. It just is as we are simply humans. Small wonder our lives on earth are limited.
06/09/2013 07:37:33 AM · #233
Often times, when thinking of the wisdom is phrases, proverbs, and sayings, its important to know the whole phrase-
(for instance "curiosity killed the cat"- yes, but the complete line is "satisfaction brought it back"- enlightens the whole matter)

The relevance is, the old phrase "two heads are better than one" is not complete.
The important part is "only if they reach the same conclusion."
If two heads do not reach the same conclusion, they are decidedly worse than one.

06/09/2013 10:16:22 AM · #234
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Civil discussion and finding common ground. Putting yourself in their shoes and compromise. Like any argument between two people, you can only control what YOU do.
i can only control what i do, like, for example, how many times i will bang my head against a brick wall. So, i look for walls.
06/09/2013 12:35:51 PM · #235
Democracy is a messy, imperfect business, but so far it's probably the best thing we've come up with.
06/09/2013 12:50:34 PM · #236
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Democracy is a messy, imperfect business, but so far it's probably the best thing we've come up with.

Yeah, except what we have here in the USA isn't Democracy. It's much closer to a Plutocracy. Scarily so, actually...
06/09/2013 02:56:34 PM · #237
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by blindjustice:

In reality, they would get more from monitoring facebook accounts.

I'm sure they are ...

Told ya so ...

There is a name for the type of government which spies indiscriminately on its citizens and then lies to them about it, but it is not "democracy" ...

The problem is once the citizens feel they've been lied-to, the old "trust us -- there's oversight to protect you" line just stops cutting it. So the FISA court says it's OK -- but we don't know who they are either, or how they arrived at their conclusions.

"They" say these programs have stopped attacks, but they can't tell us when or how ... that they don't use the data to "fish" for patterns, but not that they "can't" ...

Fortunately or unfortunately, I grew up in an era when my generation just assumed (correctly) that the government was routinely spying on us and committing other "undemocratic" acts and lying about it,* so none of this is particularly surprising, just wearying and depressing ...

*Gulf of Tonkin, Watergate, Cambodia, Iran-Contra, etc.
06/09/2013 03:23:06 PM · #238
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Fortunately or unfortunately, I grew up in an era when my generation just assumed (correctly) that the government was routinely spying on us and committing other "undemocratic" acts and lying about it,* so none of this is particularly surprising, just wearying and depressing ...

*Gulf of Tonkin, Watergate, Cambodia, Iran-Contra, etc.

Yes, that's how I'm feeling. An immensely weary part of me wants to shout "So what's NEW? Don't you REALIZE this has been going on for the best part of 100 years at least?" And, sadly for an old war protester like me, all my outrage is muted and turned internally. It's like, I just want to be left alone to live out my days in peace, haven't I/we earned that at least? But that's just a whine. Whining doesn't change anything and it doesn't even make me feel better :-(
06/09/2013 03:46:52 PM · #239
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by blindjustice:

In reality, they would get more from monitoring facebook accounts.

I'm sure they are ...

Told ya so ...

There is a name for the type of government which spies indiscriminately on its citizens and then lies to them about it, but it is not "democracy" ...

The problem is once the citizens feel they've been lied-to, the old "trust us -- there's oversight to protect you" line just stops cutting it. So the FISA court says it's OK -- but we don't know who they are either, or how they arrived at their conclusions.

"They" say these programs have stopped attacks, but they can't tell us when or how ... that they don't use the data to "fish" for patterns, but not that they "can't" ...

Fortunately or unfortunately, I grew up in an era when my generation just assumed (correctly) that the government was routinely spying on us and committing other "undemocratic" acts and lying about it,* so none of this is particularly surprising, just wearying and depressing ...

*Gulf of Tonkin, Watergate, Cambodia, Iran-Contra, etc.


I came across an interesting comment associated with the New York Times editorial that Bear_Music posted earlier:

Originally posted by NYT Editorial Reader - UK:

I have spent many of my 20+ professional years advising clients on data analysis, and doing a fair amount of it myself. I have worked for mobile telcos as well, and know intimately the contents of Call Data Records (CDRs) and the like.
There is something called "pattern analysis" that does not need to see the contents or transcripts of any call. It just looks for PATTERNS, and from an intelligent analysis can detect when things look highly "interesting". In my day job, we use this for marketing analytics, to see who might want to buy more of certain products, and where (as the CDR contains location information).
I have no doubt that the NSA has similar, but far better techniques than we use, for marketing analytics, to detect potential terrorist activity.
However, the key to pattern analysis is the completeness of the data set input to it. You really need to scrape ALL of the available data to get worthwhile results - otherwise the patterns will miss key activities, and the results will be suspect.
If you wish to use these techniques against potential threats to your country, then "data scooping" such as ordered against Verizon is the only way to make it work - the algorithms just don't work reliably otherwise.


So apparently "they" ARE fishing for patterns; it seems that's the whole point of the exercise.

In any event, since the days of J. Edgar Hoover, anyone active in politics on the left side of the political spectrum has assumed that they are being spied on. As for the current programs, I've assumed since at least 2006 or thereabouts that anything I post online may become part of a dragnet spying effort. The Occupy movement was infiltrated by the FBI from the get-go, and everyone knew it was happening as it was happening. So, yes, feeling rather cynical these days about the whole thing. One must soldier on in spite of it, though.
06/09/2013 07:40:50 PM · #240
here he is
06/09/2013 07:57:08 PM · #241
Wow...
06/09/2013 08:02:40 PM · #242
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Democracy is a messy, imperfect business, but so far it's probably the best thing we've come up with.

Yeah, except what we have here in the USA isn't Democracy. It's much closer to a Plutocracy. Scarily so, actually...


Funny, it seems more like an idocracy to me.
06/09/2013 08:03:56 PM · #243
Originally posted by jmritz:

here he is


Good, I love his courage.
06/09/2013 08:48:19 PM · #244
Originally posted by Cory:

Funny, it seems more like an idocracy to me.

Cory, your sound bites can be amusing, but they tend to confuse the issue. I know you know WHAT a "plutocracy" is; why not respond to that and further the dialogue rather than deliver a throwaway line? This is serious stuff happening out there...
06/09/2013 09:10:10 PM · #245
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Cory:

Funny, it seems more like an idocracy to me.

Cory, your sound bites can be amusing, but they tend to confuse the issue. I know you know WHAT a "plutocracy" is; why not respond to that and further the dialogue rather than deliver a throwaway line? This is serious stuff happening out there...


Bear, while you're somewhat right, the truth is that I do think too large of a proportion of the population (read massive majority) are fucking melon-headed idiots.

Yes, this IS serious, but the fact that we understand that doesn't make any meaningful difference. I was being sadly at least partially serious with my sound bite as well - there should be mass outrage - but we as a nation are far more concerned with the cost of gas, the latest sensational murder trial, our favorite sports team rivalry, and a dozen other inconsequential things we're trained to care deeply about as being essential to our status as patriotic Americans.

I understand why you think it was only an amusing soundbite - and in truth that was a fair bit of the reason I posted it - but in reality I just don't have any faith in the soft and squishy average American to even understand, let alone act - hell they're so fully tenderized that the soft and squishy bits extend all the way to the core, being especially soft and squishy in the region located directly between their ears.

Care to disagree? I'd love a good debate on the merits and abilities of the average American when it comes to understanding the larger implications of actions like this that have consequences that won't even become fully apparent for tens of years.

--ETA: As far as it being a plutocracy. Duh! That's even less surprising than this program is.

Message edited by author 2013-06-09 21:22:09.
06/09/2013 09:11:03 PM · #246
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Cory:

Funny, it seems more like an idocracy to me.

Cory, your sound bites can be amusing, but they tend to confuse the issue. I know you know WHAT a "plutocracy" is; why not respond to that and further the dialogue rather than deliver a throwaway line? This is serious stuff happening out there...


Maybe he's smart and the NSA mole in this thread will focus on you and not him? Jokes aside, I don't know what else there is to say about this. I think I liked it better when Bush was doing this stuff. It's a lot scarier when the president campaigns for transparency, ending the wars and putting a stop to civil rights abuses and does the exact opposite.

Message edited by author 2013-06-09 21:12:37.
06/09/2013 09:45:15 PM · #247
Originally posted by yanko:

It's a lot scarier when the president campaigns for transparency, ending the wars and putting a stop to civil rights abuses and does the exact opposite.

Of course, it can get scary for the "other side" when they think they elect a conservative like Nixon and get price controls, the Clean Air Act/EPA, and trade with "Red" China ...

Also, let's remember that Congress is admittedly complicit in this deluge of deceit ...

Message edited by author 2013-06-09 21:48:06.
06/09/2013 09:53:47 PM · #248
Originally posted by Cory:



Bear, while you're somewhat right, the truth is that I do think too large of a proportion of the population (read massive majority) are fucking melon-headed idiots.


Well, I've never.... I have never f'ed a melon-headed idiot. (Don't you love when grammar can be miscontructed?)

Carry on! (Just inserting a sound bite...)
06/09/2013 09:57:17 PM · #249
Originally posted by Melethia:

Originally posted by Cory:



Bear, while you're somewhat right, the truth is that I do think too large of a proportion of the population (read massive majority) are fucking melon-headed idiots.


Well, I've never.... I have never f'ed a melon-headed idiot. (Don't you love when grammar can be miscontructed?)

Carry on! (Just inserting a sound bite...)


Are you sure? If you're not a virgin there's AT LEAST a 60% probability that you have. I know I have - several in fact.
06/09/2013 10:14:05 PM · #250
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Democracy is a messy, imperfect business, but so far it's probably the best thing we've come up with.
Yeah, except what we have here in the USA isn't Democracy. It's much closer to a Plutocracy. Scarily so, actually...

51_225x225_Front.png?region=name:FrontCenter,w:5.5,h:3.5,t:id=58165595;t1=Pluto;
WE ARE NOT AMUSED. OK. MAYBE WE ARE A TEENCY BIT AMUSED. BUT ONLY BECAUSE CORY DIDN'T POST THIS. So. Carry on with the burning urgencies.
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