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04/16/2013 01:30:52 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by JH:
It's so upsetting reading about this. Martin Richard, 8 years old. He was waiting for his father to finish the race...
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As a father that's still fairly new to the game, it's hard to process this. You take your family out on a massive family day in Boston, you get a big hug of congratulations from your son for finishing the race, and he then he's killed and your other family members severely injured from a bomb blast. I can't imagine ever smiling again. Or even functioning. |
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04/16/2013 01:42:55 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
Originally posted by JH:
It's so upsetting reading about this. Martin Richard, 8 years old. He was waiting for his father to finish the race... |
You take your family out on a massive family day in Boston, you get a big hug of congratulations from your son for finishing the race, and he then he's killed and your other family members severely injured from a bomb blast... |
Not that it makes the horror any better, but contrary to early speculation the father wasn't actually running in the race.
Message edited by author 2013-04-16 13:45:30. |
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04/16/2013 01:44:08 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Mike I agree....I am for public torture and execution if you do something like this |
On the one hand, we condemn societies that punish criminals this way as barbaric, backward and brutal. Yet here we are, "civilized" and calling for the same.
And I'm not calling you out specifically, I've heard this same sentiment echoed many times.
As a father, I can tell you that if that was my son, the perpetrator would be safer behind bars. |
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04/16/2013 02:07:43 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
As a father, I can tell you that if that was my son, the perpetrator would be safer behind bars. |
And far better for you that you could not get to him and do what any father would wish to do. Our rules against torture and "cruel and unusual punishments" were set down not to protect the criminals, but to protect us from the harm that such punishments do to us. |
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04/16/2013 02:07:45 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Mike I agree....I am for public torture and execution if you do something like this |
On the one hand, we condemn societies that punish criminals this way as barbaric, backward and brutal. Yet here we are, "civilized" and calling for the same.
And I'm not calling you out specifically, I've heard this same sentiment echoed many times.
As a father, I can tell you that if that was my son, the perpetrator would be safer behind bars. |
you will never hear me say that. i believe in due process but if you are convicted of the crime, you aren't rotting in jail, i do not believe in rehabilitation nor should you receive any, if you take someones life, you lose yours, fair is fair. You forgo any rights to live or function in a civilized society form that point forward.
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04/16/2013 02:15:05 PM · #56 |
Wow.
Impromptu interview with the guy who was in so many of the photos of the double amputee. |
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04/16/2013 02:16:11 PM · #57 |
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04/16/2013 02:20:18 PM · #58 |
Of course it has.
It's a clear pattern:
Step 1. Crisis
Step 2. Push new legislation disguised as a solution to future crises.
Step 3. Wait for new Crisis
..
The thing is, effectively, it's hard as hell to pass sweeping new legislation without an immediate and emotive "need" for the changes. Of course, the changes proposed have always been in the works for years, and it's just that they are presented as a solution, but never mind that - the point is, this is a predictable pattern, and one that I find most egregious.
Message edited by author 2013-04-16 14:20:44. |
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04/16/2013 02:44:11 PM · #59 |
Today police are trying to collect all the imagery taken by anyone. Store surveillance CC cameras, amateur video, anything that might lead to a hint of who left that bomb there. Cameras in the hands of the population are ubiquitous as we have seen from all the footage of the explosion. Locally CC cameras have led to a few killers being caught and are being used by a local town to catch burglars. The notion that law enforcement should not use the same tools that businesses use to keep track of their stock or ATMs use to watch transactions or people use for enjoyment seems odd.
It has been debated ad nauseum here that anyone out in public has no expectation that they should have the right to stop one of us from taking their picture. Why is it more frightening to some of us when that picture is taken in hopes of catching criminals? We used to be able to afford cops walking a beat. Now they are all in cruisers. Eyes on the street are a good thing. Hopefully someone caught the bomber on tape. Hopefully this will lead to his arrest.
Message edited by author 2013-04-16 14:45:04. |
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04/16/2013 02:48:14 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Spork99:
As a father, I can tell you that if that was my son, the perpetrator would be safer behind bars. |
And far better for you that you could not get to him and do what any father would wish to do. Our rules against torture and "cruel and unusual punishments" were set down not to protect the criminals, but to protect us from the harm that such punishments do to us. |
Exactly. |
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04/16/2013 02:49:51 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Today police are trying to collect all the imagery taken by anyone. Store surveillance CC cameras, amateur video, anything that might lead to a hint of who left that bomb there. Cameras in the hands of the population are ubiquitous as we have seen from all the footage of the explosion. Locally CC cameras have led to a few killers being caught and are being used by a local town to catch burglars. The notion that law enforcement should not use the same tools that businesses use to keep track of their stock or ATMs use to watch transactions or people use for enjoyment seems odd.
It has been debated ad nauseum here that anyone out in public has no expectation that they should have the right to stop one of us from taking their picture. Why is it more frightening to some of us when that picture is taken in hopes of catching criminals? We used to be able to afford cops walking a beat. Now they are all in cruisers. Eyes on the street are a good thing. Hopefully someone caught the bomber on tape. Hopefully this will lead to his arrest. |
I've already seen plenty of speculation on that point.
ETA: I would mostly support the REPLACEMENT of police with more cameras - to increase enforcement costs, and just continue to add to the budget isn't really good - but logically, adding a well designed surveillance system should allow for a staff reduction of cost that is equal to, or preferably, greater than, the original cost of the camera system.
What I would not, and could not, support, is simply piling on more layers, and more costs, and increasing an already over inflated budget - we need more positive forces in our communities, and less enforcement and other 'punishment oriented' services. Preventing criminals is way better than catching and punishing them - I say let's do try to make some decisions that could lower enforcement costs, increase enforcement effectiveness, and subsequently free up some budget allotments that could then be used to fund more important programs that would actually lead to a better quality of life for everyone, and eventually, if continued, could possibly even begin to have some measurable effect on the sort of events like this bombing and the recent shootings.
Message edited by author 2013-04-16 14:55:22. |
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04/16/2013 02:52:17 PM · #62 |
| Hopefully they catch him quick........ |
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04/16/2013 03:01:57 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Hopefully they catch him quick........ |
Quickly, but not too quickly. The Centennial Olympic Park bombing is on the mind of many of the searchers. Finding a suspect early led to not catching the real culprit for 5 years and several more bombings in that case. |
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04/16/2013 03:06:46 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Spork99:
As a father, I can tell you that if that was my son, the perpetrator would be safer behind bars. |
And far better for you that you could not get to him and do what any father would wish to do. Our rules against torture and "cruel and unusual punishments" were set down not to protect the criminals, but to protect us from the harm that such punishments do to us. |
thank you, Brennan. |
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04/16/2013 03:13:51 PM · #65 |
| Here's another very interesting video - timelapse of the finish line. |
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04/16/2013 03:51:37 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Spork99:
As a father, I can tell you that if that was my son, the perpetrator would be safer behind bars. |
And far better for you that you could not get to him and do what any father would wish to do. Our rules against torture and "cruel and unusual punishments" were set down not to protect the criminals, but to protect us from the harm that such punishments do to us. |
let me ask you.
i preface by saying that most people would not be able to follow through with revenge and its best left to authority to punish, but do you find our current system of "civilized" punishment to lenient?
so long as punishment isn't dealt in anger, what is so wrong with an "eye for an eye" for the more heinous crimes? surely allowing you to live the rest of your life in a cell isn't fair to the society that no longer wants you yet still has to care for you.
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04/16/2013 04:06:14 PM · #67 |
You guys want to talk about strange?
I watched Family Guy last night, in a bit of a marathon viewing session (I had six episodes I hadn't watched.)
In viewing one of the episodes, "Turban Cowboy", I was kinda surprised that Peter was supposedly the winner of the Boston Marathon, and it cuts to a clip of him driving through the runners in his car - then later in the episode, he's met a terrorist, and ignorantly joins the group - he has a cell phone, and sets off two bombs with it in succession of just about exactly the same interval as the bombing.
Not that I think this really has ANYTHING to do with anything, but DAMN it's a strange coincidence. |
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04/16/2013 04:11:46 PM · #68 |
| if the terror is homegrown, who knows what the influences are... |
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04/16/2013 04:18:09 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Mike:
if the terror is homegrown, who knows what the influences are... |
I'm pretty confident Family Guy wasn't one of them.
Then again, I suppose I wouldn't have bet on the Beatles influencing Manson either. |
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04/16/2013 04:25:19 PM · #70 |
dont worry everyone, we are removing all the trash cans from our nations capital. who knew the fix was that simple?
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04/16/2013 04:30:00 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Mike:
so long as punishment isn't dealt in anger, what is so wrong with an "eye for an eye" for the more heinous crimes? surely allowing you to live the rest of your life in a cell isn't fair to the society that no longer wants you yet still has to care for you. |
The biblical quote "an eye for an eye" is a limitation, not a recipe for justice. It describes the greatest limit.
When killers plan to kill, then isolate and immobilize their victims, we call it murder with special circumstances. When the government does it we call it the death penalty. It is 10 times more expensive to kill them than keep them for life. and we get it wrong sometimes, look at the Innocence Project or watch Ken Burn's show on the central park 5 tonight and you will see that certainty is not always so certain.
As for the truly guilty, rotting in prison forever does not seem so merciful to me, many wish to die. Let them rot and think on their crimes as long as they live. If they see the error of their ways, that is good, it changes noting but remorse is better. If they don't, so what. A quick death is too good for them. Like the old joke goes;
Masochist says to the sadist "Beat me! hurt me!"
Sadist says "No." |
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04/16/2013 05:02:45 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Mike:
so long as punishment isn't dealt in anger, what is so wrong with an "eye for an eye" for the more heinous crimes? surely allowing you to live the rest of your life in a cell isn't fair to the society that no longer wants you yet still has to care for you. |
The biblical quote "an eye for an eye" is a limitation, not a recipe for justice. It describes the greatest limit.
When killers plan to kill, then isolate and immobilize their victims, we call it murder with special circumstances. When the government does it we call it the death penalty. It is 10 times more expensive to kill them than keep them for life. and we get it wrong sometimes, look at the Innocence Project or watch Ken Burn's show on the central park 5 tonight and you will see that certainty is not always so certain.
As for the truly guilty, rotting in prison forever does not seem so merciful to me, many wish to die. Let them rot and think on their crimes as long as they live. If they see the error of their ways, that is good, it changes noting but remorse is better. If they don't, so what. A quick death is too good for them. Like the old joke goes;
Masochist says to the sadist "Beat me! hurt me!"
Sadist says "No." |
If they were locked away and truly, left to stew in their own thoughts for the rest of their days, maybe. But prisoners get books, love letters, human contact etc. They shouldn't. Heck, John Gacy made painting and sold them to admirers... They should get 3 meals, basic hygiene and air to breathe. nothing more. |
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04/16/2013 05:14:19 PM · #73 |
China has this down - the costs are shockingly low, other than the costs in terms of human rights.
Although, in the end, one really has to ask - is 10, 20 or even more years of your life in prison not perhaps worse than death? It seems that the continued existance is the real horror that is to be faced, death is, at that point, the only thing a convict would have to look forward to.
In China's case, it's way cheaper to execute than to imprison, but for us, perhaps imprisonment really does just make more sense, since we can't seem to keep any sort of costs in check, and it has the added bonus of being perceived as more humane - although I'm not convinced entirely on that point. |
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04/16/2013 05:35:40 PM · #74 |
| Looks like a pressure cooker bomb. If you have bought a pressure cooker lately, don't throw it out. |
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04/16/2013 05:39:41 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by Mike:
dont worry everyone, we are removing all the trash cans from our nations capital. who knew the fix was that simple? |
During the IRA bombing campaigns of the 80s and 90s one of the things they did was remove all the trash cans and seal shut manhole covers in busy streets like Oxford Street. |
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