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01/20/2003 03:27:24 PM · #26 |
At least on the Doors/Windows Challenge we can spot-edit those pixels back to the correct color? Nope...it's get re-artifacted...
How about you guys (the coders) write an algorith to convert a TIFF file into a DPC-optimized JPEG.
Member uploads the TIFF, which is converted and archived; the JPEG is subsequently displayed. You have a once/week increase in incoming bandwidth usage, and more storage space needed, but you will have automatic validation available to see if the border is JPEG-induced or not.
Or you can have a rule like:
You may add a border to your photo, so long as the total image size (including border) stays within the stated size guidelines. No text, clip-art, or composited images may be applied to any part of your image and/or border. All editing rules regarding use of selection/editing tools and filters apply to borders as well as images. |
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01/20/2003 03:32:44 PM · #27 |
I think we should go back to not allowing a border. It's a _photo_ contest and the idea is to discuss the actual photos. Borders are an add-on and part of the "finishing" like choosing the right paper to print it on or the frame to put it in. That's something that we can discuss in the forums but during the challenge I would like to concentrate on the actual photo.
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01/20/2003 03:37:16 PM · #28 |
Okay, I admit, I am one of the nit-picky ones that recommended a dq for an illegal border. BUT the one I recommended was not a post-processing "accident." I didn't just hit dq for the fun of it, and I looked at it carefully to see if what I was seeing was what I was seeing. Should I be judging the picture and not the border, yes, and I do that. But there is a rule that clearly (at least to me) defines what is acceptable. If we aren't supposed to recommend dq for what we think is a rule violation, then perhaps we shouldn't have the option to recommend dq.
About borders, I for one have enjoyed learning how to use them (sometimes effectively, sometimes not), and I have enjoyed seeing what other people do. Though I may comment on the border, I do not mark a picture up or down because of it.
I am not sure there is an easy solution to this other than to say "allow all borders (no text, added graphics, etc)" or "no borders allowed." Or maybe similar to what someone mentioned earlier, have a standard border for all, varying only the color (white, black, gray, etc). Or, simply say, "the photographer may choose the following options: a) 5 pixel black border b) 5 pixel white border c) 5 pixel gray border or d) no border." Obviously, the number could be adjusted. Don't know, it's just a thought.
There are some nice pictures, and granted, they didn't win/do well because of the border. BUT, it is not fair to allow a picture to stay in the challenge if a rule was violated either intentionally or not. Just because the majority of voters/users think a picture is good/effective/well taken doesn't make it immune from following the rules.
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01/20/2003 03:51:28 PM · #29 |
I hesitate to recommend the elegant, simple solution - No Borders.
It worked for many months, why complicate life now. |
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01/20/2003 03:53:08 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by JEM:
I hesitate to recommend the elegant, simple solution - No Borders.
It worked for many months, why complicate life now. |
It was changed because it was causing lots of pointless DQs.
The fact that the change hasn't worked, doesn't mean we should go back
to the previously not working rule either. We didn't just add this 'some borders' rule allowed for fun - the intention was to try to reduce the number of silly DQs. Instead we seem to have made it worse with the current wording.
Message edited by author 2003-01-20 15:54:35. |
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01/20/2003 03:58:46 PM · #31 |
Well the photo's are in a table cell right now, right?
I propose a software solution. On the submit page for the photo you get a drop down for inner border width then a drop down for inner border color. You then get one for the outer border too. The code then puts your cell in two other table/cells of varying widths and colors.
If you have a post processing error with an extra pixel width, then you can DQ, but for those of us who like borders we still get a clean border that can't be disputed.
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01/20/2003 04:01:52 PM · #32 |
Gordon, serious question, if the rule is "No Borders", what was causing pointless DQs?
If one submits a photograph without an added border, does a border materialize by itself in some after-submission process? |
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01/20/2003 04:03:50 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by JEM:
Gordon, serious question, if the rule is "No Borders", what was causing pointless DQs?
If one submits a photograph without an added border, does a border materialize by itself in some after-submission process? |
People were being DQ'd for accidental cropping problems, like a one pixel edge on one side of the photo.
Message edited by author 2003-01-20 16:04:40.
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01/20/2003 04:06:56 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by JEM:
Gordon, serious question, if the rule is "No Borders", what was causing pointless DQs?
If one submits a photograph without an added border, does a border materialize by itself in some after-submission process? |
The reason the 'no border' rule was causing DQ requests in the past is because we had a image size restriction of 640x480 or 640x427 only. If the image wasn't cropped to these exact dimensions, you had a 'border' on your image and it was illegal.
We could go back to the no border rule with the new size rules and have no DQ requests for bordering.
I would personally rather see unlimited border.
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01/20/2003 04:08:27 PM · #35 |
yup, people were accidentally introducing single pixel edges on their pictures due to cropping mistakes. These are pretty obvious as they don't tend to be even all around the picture or only exist on one or two sides.
We changed the rules to try and be more lenient on these mistakes, which it was felt was meaning we were disqualifying several pictures per week for unintentional mistakes that didn't enhance the photograph and didn't really encourage people to learn or improve. |
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01/20/2003 04:10:32 PM · #36 |
I repeat. Allow all borders!!! Who cares??? God this is a stupid thing to quobble over. Allow any border people can come up with. It is that simple.
I can't believe anyone would hit the DQ button for ANY reason. I fear no image. I feel mine can hold up against any. Let them spot edit all they want, my images will still hold up.
People screaming foul, it is embarrasing...
All my opinion...
Dave |
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01/20/2003 04:11:06 PM · #37 |
I did not read all massages so I don't know if someone suggest to issue a survey with some alternatives,
a. no borders.
b. allow unlimited border.
c. allow limited border.
and lets vote.
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01/20/2003 04:11:09 PM · #38 |
| John, re: your second paragraph, it would seem to be a no-brainer to return to "No Borders", now that the size rules are revised. |
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01/20/2003 04:12:50 PM · #39 |
| I mean it would eliminate a lot of conflict and hair splitting about borders. |
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01/20/2003 04:13:02 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by JEM:
John, re: your second paragraph, it would seem to be a no-brainer to return to "No Borders", now that the size rules are revised. |
I agree, but at the same time, I prefer being able to separate my image from the gray background on the site. I prefer using borders but I'm tired of reviewing all the DQ requests we get every week.
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01/20/2003 04:16:06 PM · #41 |
wow, i feel like i am re-reading the same threads we used to have when we went thru the hubaloo about people getting disqualified for accidentally (or otherwise) adding a border to their pic. perhaps because of those threads, now borders are allowed, but restrictions have been placed on them---and history is repeating itself!
on the winning landscape pic for example, maybe my eyes arent up to snuff, because even tho i do see the lighter band of blue at the top of the page--i cant follow it around the image, which to me implies that it is not an intentional border, or even a border at all, just artifacts like many others have already said. another pic i saw in the current challenge is wonderful but has border issues--i would hate to see it disqualified because of these--just like i hated to see great pics get disqualified before, when we didn't allow borders.
i seriously think it might be better to put no restrictions on borders at all--if people are going to go crazy with it, then they will do so at their own peril--the voters will let them know how they feel about it. honestly, i think that even tho a few out there might experiment with it, most will not want to mess with the integrity of their photos. and again, if they do, im sure the commenters will let them know! :) |
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01/20/2003 04:20:59 PM · #42 |
I say we allow any number of SOLID colored borders to be added. Have the rules state that and these restrictions: no shadowing, gradients, or text (or even no restrictions at all). This would eliminate DQs for mistakes, and, IMO, anyone who overdoes the borders would be penalized in score. If someone wants to add a rainbow-colored border to their photo that's fine with me, but I would tend to give a low score.
Oh, and I agree with Alecia's last paragraph.
Message edited by author 2003-01-20 16:24:01.
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01/20/2003 04:33:33 PM · #43 |
Black and white photography would once again go into the crapper hear with a no border rule. A B+W image on a neutral grey background turns the image way too dark and morose looking. My image in the landscape comp would never have placed 6th if I didn't have that thin little white border around it with the bigger black border. B+W has been represented here in finals now that borders are allowed.
Check out the number of finalists pre and post border that were purely B+W...
What are you all so afraid of? The simple answer is let all borders enter!!!! Who cares how someone frames an image. If my image get's beat because of a frame it deserved to get beat!!!
Dave |
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01/20/2003 04:56:13 PM · #44 |
Whew, that was a lot to read. I wouldn't mind just having some choices of borders to select from when we submit our photos. You can choose 'no border' if you wish. These borders could range in thickness from 2 or 3 pixels to 20 or 30 pixels. They would automatically be applied within the original image size so anyone using the larger sizes would have to take that into consideration. I'm sure we could come up with 5 to 10 borders that would compliment any photo. And if this is not accepted than just allow any reasonable borders.
T
P.S. Dave, a black and white borderless photo just got 4th : - ) Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Message edited by author 2003-01-20 16:59:03.
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01/20/2003 05:11:23 PM · #45 |
A site-applied border does nothing to eliminate the problem of "illegal pixels" added by accident, artifice, or artifact.
Since even solid-colored borders seem to turn multicolored through uncontrolable software action, I'd vote for any borders allowed and let the submitted suffer the consequences of overdoing it.
Presentation of your photo is as much a part of learning photography as any other editing. To allow tone/contrast adjustments and sharpening but prohibit borders because it's not part of a photograph is illogical. If you want a "pure" photography challenge, make folks submit their original frame right from the camera. (This would make a good occasional challenge.)
If people think borders make such a difference, they should learn how to use them. Those who don't like them are free to submit borderless images and vote on all other photos as they see fit (as always). |
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01/20/2003 05:13:30 PM · #46 |
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01/20/2003 05:24:29 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
A site-applied border does nothing to eliminate the problem of "illegal pixels" added by accident, artifice, or artifact.
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If it is a site-applied border how could there be a problem of "illegal pixels". Whatever 'look' that it had would be accepted.
The borders that I am suggesting would go 'inside' the original image size so this could help clean up any bad edges that may be on some photos.
I just thought it might be simple for people to choose a pre-cut mat for their image. The choice of whether it looks good still remains with the photographer so they could still screw that up but at least the border would be clean and legal.
Maybe we could allow both options. We could either put our own borders on or chosse one from the site.
T
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01/20/2003 05:54:28 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by timj351:
The borders that I am suggesting would go 'inside' the original image size so this could help clean up any bad edges that may be on some photos.
T |
You are the cropping the person's photo by N pixels. If the border goes outside, you still have the problem of the 1-2 pizel "padding" error from cropping (note almost all "accidental" DQs were for PADDING, not BORDERS).
I'm now seeing two choices:
1) allow borders constrained by all other editing rules
2) do not allow borders, but do allow the admins/site council carte blanche to override any DQ request for an image where they consider the violation irrelevant, accidental, or not advantageous (isn't the point of a DQ to prevent someone from gaining an unfair advantage?). |
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01/20/2003 06:38:56 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Karen, I disagree. The winning photo is not an illegal border. The border must have become artifacted by the jpg compression. If this photo is disqualified, I will be severely disappointed. It was NOT applied as an illegal border.
I can't believe we are down to looking at individual pixels on a border to determine if it is illegal or not. This is completely rediculous. |
John, this is why I think we should go with choice (a) in my initial response. There were other photos, I think, that were at least questioned if not DQ'd because of the same "let's enlarge it and see the compression/color variance" crapola. I personally would like to get back to photos, and get off of borders too. ;) |
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01/20/2003 06:45:10 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Well the photo's are in a table cell right now, right?
I propose a software solution. On the submit page for the photo you get a drop down for inner border width then a drop down for inner border color. You then get one for the outer border too. The code then puts your cell in two other table/cells of varying widths and colors.
If you have a post processing error with an extra pixel width, then you can DQ, but for those of us who like borders we still get a clean border that can't be disputed. |
I like this idea, too. Someone else, or maybe you, have suggested it before. Without knowing the mechanics of how to make this happen, if the decision went that way, how would it be coded for the variation now that everyone can post a different sized photo? |
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