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04/15/2013 01:31:34 AM · #151 |
Originally posted by yanko:
You'll never get Goliath off his feet by using the same biblically old fallacies. Religion as an alternative isn't strengthen by pointing out science's flaws. Even if Goliath were to fall he would land on top of David. That's because religion has all of the same flaws and then some. |
I think we're quite getting away from my original point which was to ask whether discussing morality was more like discussing math or more like discussing art? Is it objective in nature or subjective in nature? We took a little detour to discuss the context of the word objective and to understand the self-defeating nature of Scientism, but I think we got through that. I hadn't pointed out any "flaw" of Science, but expressed its limit. Religion (or philosophy) may have its own limits, but they are unlikely to be the same. |
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04/15/2013 03:40:34 AM · #152 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
There is no band of organized atheists doing things and blaming it on a lack of God. They're just people, doing things for their own motivations.
I simply don't understand the premise that somehow atheism is some kind of group thing. It's not. It simply means that a person believes there is no God. It's not a movement, an active group of like-minded people assembled for a purpose......
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Reality seems to suggest otherwise. Apparently there is an organization called American Atheists that groups together to sue people and promote an atheist agenda.
Edit to add:
Upon further research it appears that you are indeed gravely uninformed about the degree to which atheists are "organized." Check out the website for American Atheists. They identify themselves as an organization with very explicit political, cultural, and philosophical goals. It took me two minutes to find this. How many more atheist organizations are there out there?
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I simply don't understand the premise that somehow atheism is some kind of group thing. It's not. It simply means that a person believes there is no God. It's not a movement, an active group of like-minded people assembled for a purpose......
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This statement is about as wrong as wrong can be. There are atheist movements and groups of like-minded atheists assembled for a purpose... and I'm not making that up. They actually exist as non-profit organizations with clearly stated purposes exactly like many religious non-profit organizations.
Message edited by author 2013-04-15 03:50:18. |
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04/15/2013 07:51:10 AM · #153 |
Wow, I didn't know they existed. I think I'll join! BTW - their stated purpose doesn't match what you wrote.
American Atheists, Inc. is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated to the complete and absolute separation of state and church, accepting the explanation of Thomas Jefferson that the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was meant to create a "wall of separation" between state and church. |
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04/15/2013 11:13:47 AM · #154 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
There is no band of organized atheists doing things and blaming it on a lack of God. They're just people, doing things for their own motivations.
I simply don't understand the premise that somehow atheism is some kind of group thing. It's not. It simply means that a person believes there is no God. It's not a movement, an active group of like-minded people assembled for a purpose......
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Reality seems to suggest otherwise. Apparently there is an organization called American Atheists that groups together to sue people and promote an atheist agenda.
Edit to add:
Upon further research it appears that you are indeed gravely uninformed about the degree to which atheists are "organized." Check out the website for American Atheists. They identify themselves as an organization with very explicit political, cultural, and philosophical goals. It took me two minutes to find this. How many more atheist organizations are there out there?
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I simply don't understand the premise that somehow atheism is some kind of group thing. It's not. It simply means that a person believes there is no God. It's not a movement, an active group of like-minded people assembled for a purpose......
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This statement is about as wrong as wrong can be. There are atheist movements and groups of like-minded atheists assembled for a purpose... and I'm not making that up. They actually exist as non-profit organizations with clearly stated purposes exactly like many religious non-profit organizations. |
Oh I assure you, these organizations exist only to attempt to level a playing field that has been terribly slanted for all of history.
Like it or not, they are nothing more than an answer to the call of the religious - you guys are always pushing for more - it's important that you aren't allowed to think that you own the world.
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04/15/2013 11:49:48 AM · #155 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
That's logical from a humanistic standpoint, but not from a scientific standpoint. |
I'm not sure why this would be anything but a "Yeah, so? What's your point?" kind of moment. It basically is a precursor to another saying......"You reap what you sow." which in most cases is provable and logical.
Personally, I'm kind of at a loss to understand why you all of a sudden have decided that the hordes of atheists have become organized and militant, but you're kind of out on a limb here....
Yes, just like any other charismatic people, Dawkins and others have followers, but do you really suppose that people who are inclined to seriously make up their own minds and make their own choices are going to be taken in by the flavor du jour in philosophical thinking?
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04/15/2013 12:01:06 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Upon further research it appears that you are indeed gravely uninformed about the degree to which atheists are "organized." Check out the website for American Atheists. They identify themselves as an organization with very explicit political, cultural, and philosophical goals. It took me two minutes to find this. How many more atheist organizations are there out there? |
Originally posted by American Atheists Aims and Principles:
American Atheists, Inc. is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated to the complete and absolute separation of state and church, accepting the explanation of Thomas Jefferson that the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was meant to create a "wall of separation" between state and church.
Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds. |
Wow.......what a bunch of radical whack-jobs!!!!!!
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04/15/2013 12:08:54 PM · #157 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by American Atheists Aims and Principles:
American Atheists, Inc. is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated to the complete and absolute separation of state and church, accepting the explanation of Thomas Jefferson that the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was meant to create a "wall of separation" between state and church.
Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds. |
Wow.......what a bunch of radical whack-jobs!!!!!! |
Yep.. That's pretty much the whole thing in a nutshell.
Message edited by author 2013-04-15 12:09:29. |
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04/15/2013 12:10:30 PM · #158 |
Santa Clause exists and i strive in my life to please him. He only asks that i be good and believe in him, no church, no tithes, no books, nothings. just be good.
and if i screw up i get coal in my stocking on Christmas and i get to make amends year year. non of this going through life and figuring out you're wrong at the end stuff.
Message edited by author 2013-04-15 12:20:03. |
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04/15/2013 12:15:19 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Reality seems to suggest otherwise. Apparently there is an organization called American Atheists that groups together to sue people and promote an atheist agenda.
Edit to add:
Upon further research it appears that you are indeed gravely uninformed about the degree to which atheists are "organized." Check out the website for American Atheists. They identify themselves as an organization with very explicit political, cultural, and philosophical goals. It took me two minutes to find this. How many more atheist organizations are there out there? |
Gravely uninformed? Seems to be catching. A bit of research found that American Atheist has 2,200 members. Of 5,022,624 Americans who identify as Atheists (1.6% of the total population of the USA)
So about 0.1% of atheists belong to the American Atheist. Compared to the 77,700,000 Americans who belong to the Catholic church, the 2,200 members of American Atheist just do not seem like a force likely to topple even a minority church like the Catholics. |
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04/15/2013 12:18:37 PM · #160 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Reality seems to suggest otherwise. Apparently there is an organization called American Atheists that groups together to sue people and promote an atheist agenda.
Edit to add:
Upon further research it appears that you are indeed gravely uninformed about the degree to which atheists are "organized." Check out the website for American Atheists. They identify themselves as an organization with very explicit political, cultural, and philosophical goals. It took me two minutes to find this. How many more atheist organizations are there out there? |
Gravely uninformed? Seems to be catching. A bit of research found that American Atheist has 2,200 members. Of 5,022,624 Americans who identify as Atheists (1.6% of the total population of the USA)
So about 0.1% of atheists belong to the American Atheist. Compared to the 77,700,000 Americans who belong to the Catholic church, the 2,200 members of American Atheist just do not seem like a force likely to topple even a minority church like the Catholics. |
Yeah, but those 2200 people do seem to scare the hell outta the 77 million Catholics. :D
I wonder why..... |
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04/15/2013 12:21:36 PM · #161 |
| they don't scare all the 77M Catholics, only the fanatical ones. |
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04/15/2013 12:35:41 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
they don't scare all the 77M Catholics, only the fanatical ones. |
Ok fair enough.
So we can agree that the do scare the hell out of no less than 50M Catholics then? ;) |
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04/15/2013 02:20:44 PM · #163 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by American Atheists Aims and Principles:
American Atheists, Inc. is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated to the complete and absolute separation of state and church, accepting the explanation of Thomas Jefferson that the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was meant to create a "wall of separation" between state and church.
Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds. |
Wow.......what a bunch of radical whack-jobs!!!!!! |
Yep.. That's pretty much the whole thing in a nutshell. |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Gravely uninformed? Seems to be catching. A bit of research found that American Atheist has 2,200 members. Of 5,022,624 Americans who identify as Atheists (1.6% of the total population of the USA)
So about 0.1% of atheists belong to the American Atheist. Compared to the 77,700,000 Americans who belong to the Catholic church, the 2,200 members of American Atheist just do not seem like a force likely to topple even a minority church like the Catholics. |
Originally posted by mike_311:
they don't scare all the 77M Catholics, only the fanatical ones. |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by mike_311:
they don't scare all the 77M Catholics, only the fanatical ones. |
Ok fair enough.
So we can agree that the do scare the hell out of no less than 50M Catholics then? ;) |
Fascinating. You atheists have done exactly the same thing that you ridicule the religious folks for doing. You have dodged and disassociated yourselves when a radical/fanatical wing of your worldview has been brought to the table. When the religious people around here call groups like Westboro Baptist Church "whack-jobs" or quote statistics to show how that group is not a fair representation of Christianity, you poo poo them and continue attacking the religious people here as if they were all radicals like the Westboro clan. You say things like, "Yea, but you think homosexuality is an abomination like Westboro," or "you think abortion is murder like Westboro," or "you think God controls natural disasters like Westboro," etc... Straw Man, perhaps? How would you like it if I were to poo poo your name calling and statistic babbling and attack all of you as if you were fanatics like the American Atheists?
Message edited by author 2013-04-15 14:21:01. |
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04/15/2013 02:23:58 PM · #164 |
what exactly is fanatical about American Atheists? They simply want a clear separation of church and state? Feel free to lump me in with that crowd.
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04/15/2013 02:49:41 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Fascinating. You atheists have done exactly the same thing that you ridicule the religious folks for doing. You have dodged and disassociated yourselves when a radical/fanatical wing of your worldview has been brought to the table. When the religious people around here call groups like Westboro Baptist Church "whack-jobs" or quote statistics to show how that group is not a fair representation of Christianity, you poo poo them and continue attacking the religious people here as if they were all radicals like the Westboro clan. You say things like, "Yea, but you think homosexuality is an abomination like Westboro," or "you think abortion is murder like Westboro," or "you think God controls natural disasters like Westboro," etc... Straw Man, perhaps? How would you like it if I were to poo poo your name calling and statistic babbling and attack all of you as if you were fanatics like the American Atheists? |
A couple of points.
-You have no idea who here is an atheist, a theist, or an agnostic. Argue the points, not the person who brings up a point; otherwise you degrade an arguemnet into pure name calling.
-You contended that atheists are an organized group, and put forward a group called American Atheist as an example of that central organization. When it was pointed out that less than a tenth of a percent of all self identified atheist, who compromise less than a tenth of all non-religious people in the US are members of that group, you dismiss that fact as "statistical babbling". How would you suggest people counter the argument of an organised atheist movement if not with facts related to the numbers within the organization that you brought into the discussion as an example?
-Though your mentioning American Atheist was the first I had ever heard of that group, from what little I have learned it has no comparative behavior to a group like Westboro. A comparison to a group like the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights is a far better comparator, because simply put, the anti-religion crowd has no extremists anything like Westboro for the radicalism of their views or actions. |
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04/15/2013 03:06:05 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by American Atheists Aims and Principles:
American Atheists, Inc. is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated to the complete and absolute separation of state and church, accepting the explanation of Thomas Jefferson that the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was meant to create a "wall of separation" between state and church.
Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds. |
Wow.......what a bunch of radical whack-jobs!!!!!! |
Yep.. That's pretty much the whole thing in a nutshell. |
Fascinating. You atheists have done exactly the same thing that you ridicule the religious folks for doing. You have dodged and disassociated yourselves when a radical/fanatical wing of your worldview has been brought to the table. When the religious people around here call groups like Westboro Baptist Church "whack-jobs" or quote statistics to show how that group is not a fair representation of Christianity, you poo poo them and continue attacking the religious people here as if they were all radicals like the Westboro clan. .... How would you like it if I were to poo poo your name calling and statistic babbling and attack all of you as if you were fanatics like the American Atheists? |
Umm... I am an American Atheist - (actually, it's a different group, FLASH, and now I'm not in Florida)....
The joke that you didn't get was that we're not at all radical whack-jobs - he was making fun of you for considering "the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds." as being extremist and whacko.
You sir, are disconnected from reality - and I blame god. ;) |
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04/15/2013 05:33:13 PM · #167 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Upon further research it appears that you are indeed gravely uninformed about the degree to which atheists are "organized." Check out the website for American Atheists. They identify themselves as an organization with very explicit political, cultural, and philosophical goals. It took me two minutes to find this. How many more atheist organizations are there out there? |
Originally posted by American Atheists Aims and Principles:
American Atheists, Inc. is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated to the complete and absolute separation of state and church, accepting the explanation of Thomas Jefferson that the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was meant to create a "wall of separation" between state and church.
Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds. |
Wow.......what a bunch of radical whack-jobs!!!!!! |
That's that sarcasm thing right Jeb? :O)
Ray |
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04/15/2013 06:42:58 PM · #168 |
Frankly the "complete and absolute" separation of church and state is a rather radical interpretation of the concept. By radical I mean that if you polled the appropriate legal experts on the subject, I think only a small minority would believe a "complete and absolute" separation was what was intended.
It makes sense though that an atheist group would be advocating for an atheist government. |
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04/15/2013 07:00:01 PM · #169 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Frankly the "complete and absolute" separation of church and state is a rather radical interpretation of the concept. By radical I mean that if you polled the appropriate legal experts on the subject, I think only a small minority would believe a "complete and absolute" separation was what was intended.
It makes sense though that an atheist group would be advocating for an atheist government. |
is there is nothing wrong with taking such a hard stance? that way they can pick any battle they choose.
Message edited by author 2013-04-15 19:00:11. |
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04/15/2013 07:03:07 PM · #170 |
| Sure. They can do anything they want. I was just pointing out that maybe they are somewhat radical after all. Maybe it's a stance akin to some group declaring their goal is to set up "an American theocracy". That would be radical as well. |
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04/15/2013 07:24:09 PM · #171 |
| I don't see anything radical in it either. Why should religion play any part in governing people who don't believe in religion? |
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04/15/2013 07:33:43 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
I don't see anything radical in it either. Why should religion play any part in governing people who don't believe in religion? |
I dunno Kelli. Why shouldn't religion play any part in governing people who overwhelmingly believe in religion?
(Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm saying more than I am. I'm just saying the complete and absolute expunging of religious thought from government is a radical idea.) |
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04/15/2013 07:39:41 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Kelli:
I don't see anything radical in it either. Why should religion play any part in governing people who don't believe in religion? |
I dunno Kelli. Why shouldn't religion play any part in governing people who overwhelmingly believe in religion?
(Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm saying more than I am. I'm just saying the complete and absolute expunging of religious thought from government is a radical idea.) |
My short answer is because they don't all believe in the same religion. ;D |
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04/15/2013 07:41:07 PM · #174 |
| And I'm not advocating that the same religion always be the one "playing any part"... |
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04/15/2013 07:41:43 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Why shouldn't religion play any part in governing people who overwhelmingly believe in religion? |
Given that we have no state religion, which religion should inform governance? Do we pick the most popular religion and behave according to it's restrictions, or do we encode into law all the restrictions of all religions? When religion is injected into politics, it is equally offensive to those who have no religion and those who worship in a way different than that which laws attempt to bolster.
Message edited by author 2013-04-15 19:42:21. |
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