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01/06/2013 09:36:38 PM · #201
absolutely cory...Here are some statistics for everyone

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01/06/2013 09:41:30 PM · #202
Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Spork99:

The fact is that most stories of people using firearms for defense aren't reported in the news unless they are sensational. Comparing the number of incidents reported in papers is ridiculous beyond providing evidence that these kids of incidents do occur. The disparity in numbers is more likely due to the fact that someone using a gun to defend themselves is typically far less sensational than a horrific accident.


I guess things much be a tad different in the USA than here then. In Canada if you discharge a firearm (except when hunting of course) you can almost bet that it will be reported and that you can expect a visit from the authorities who will want answers to a bevy of questions.

Oh, I might add that shooting someone 5 times in the face and neck is, in my definition at least, something that is rather horrific.

Ray


Sure, the incidents where the firearm is discharged in the course of self defense are more likely to be reported in the news. The incidents where the aggressor backs off and retreats once they realize their victim is armed are far less newsworthy. In my case, the police simply reported that the perpetrators ran when they realized I was there. They made no mention of the fact that I was holding a 12ga shotgun. As far as I know, it never made the news.

Is having shot someone 5 times in the face and neck any less horrific than what would have happened had the mother not been armed. Would it have been better had it turned out like the Petit home invasion case in CT?


Best you read that again my friend... I made specific reference to the discharge of a firearm in Canada. With regards to your second point, if the incident is NOT reported, just how are future perpetrators dissuaded from targeting you if they do not know you have a gun.

With regards to your last comment, I have never been able to prove the impact of something that did not occur.

Ray
01/06/2013 09:43:17 PM · #203
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

absolutely cory...Here are some statistics for everyone

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Wonderful stats... and of all those you mention... how many were successfully used in the commission of mass murders.

Ray

01/06/2013 09:44:35 PM · #204
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

..
Oh, I might add that shooting someone 5 times in the face and neck is, in my definition at least, something that is rather horrific.

Ray


Damn right it is. Bet every robber who reads that cringes like hell. It's called "deterrent" and works better than our penal system where you are provided with company, free time, food, and cable tv.

One of the best reasons to not outlaw guns is exactly this - regardless of the real effectiveness, you can bet I'd be very scared of an armed home owner if I was a robber, it certainly would worry me FAR more than the police.


I can guarantee if someone breaks into my house...they will be hurting.


Only if you see them first and have your arsenal handy. The very best of luck to you.

Ray
01/06/2013 09:59:06 PM · #205
Ray I always have a rifle at the ready in my house...and a handgun at the ready in my truck
01/06/2013 10:01:53 PM · #206
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Spork99:

The fact is that most stories of people using firearms for defense aren't reported in the news unless they are sensational. Comparing the number of incidents reported in papers is ridiculous beyond providing evidence that these kids of incidents do occur. The disparity in numbers is more likely due to the fact that someone using a gun to defend themselves is typically far less sensational than a horrific accident.


I guess things much be a tad different in the USA than here then. In Canada if you discharge a firearm (except when hunting of course) you can almost bet that it will be reported and that you can expect a visit from the authorities who will want answers to a bevy of questions.

Oh, I might add that shooting someone 5 times in the face and neck is, in my definition at least, something that is rather horrific.

Ray


Sure, the incidents where the firearm is discharged in the course of self defense are more likely to be reported in the news. The incidents where the aggressor backs off and retreats once they realize their victim is armed are far less newsworthy. In my case, the police simply reported that the perpetrators ran when they realized I was there. They made no mention of the fact that I was holding a 12ga shotgun. As far as I know, it never made the news.

Is having shot someone 5 times in the face and neck any less horrific than what would have happened had the mother not been armed. Would it have been better had it turned out like the Petit home invasion case in CT?


Best you read that again my friend... I made specific reference to the discharge of a firearm in Canada. With regards to your second point, if the incident is NOT reported, just how are future perpetrators dissuaded from targeting you if they do not know you have a gun.

With regards to your last comment, I have never been able to prove the impact of something that did not occur.

Ray


I know what you referenced. My point is that if a firearm is not discharged, that doesn't mean it wasn't used in self defense. In my case, simply seeing me with the shotgun aimed at them seemed adequate to encourage a rapid departure.

It's easy to compare the two events, which of the two is preferred? A home intruder being shot by the homeowner in defense of herself and her children or an entire family being wiped out by an intruder in a most brutal way?
01/06/2013 10:04:55 PM · #207
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

..
Oh, I might add that shooting someone 5 times in the face and neck is, in my definition at least, something that is rather horrific.

Ray


Damn right it is. Bet every robber who reads that cringes like hell. It's called "deterrent" and works better than our penal system where you are provided with company, free time, food, and cable tv.

One of the best reasons to not outlaw guns is exactly this - regardless of the real effectiveness, you can bet I'd be very scared of an armed home owner if I was a robber, it certainly would worry me FAR more than the police.


I can guarantee if someone breaks into my house...they will be hurting.


Only if you see them first and have your arsenal handy. The very best of luck to you.

Ray


Of course if there's no arsenal to be ready, it doesn't matter. The only thing to do in that case is hope that they have mercy on you.
01/06/2013 10:05:23 PM · #208
Originally posted by Spork99:

It's easy to compare the two events, which of the two is preferred? A home intruder being shot by the homeowner in defense of herself and her children or an entire family being wiped out by an intruder in a most brutal way?
Or maybe they were just looking for something to sell, but hey, hyperbole sounds so much better doesn't it?
01/06/2013 10:05:53 PM · #209
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Way to go MOM!!!! Georgia mom


What this really tells me is that the .38 might be underpowered.
01/06/2013 10:09:31 PM · #210
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Spork99:

It's easy to compare the two events, which of the two is preferred? A home intruder being shot by the homeowner in defense of herself and her children or an entire family being wiped out by an intruder in a most brutal way?
Or maybe they were just looking for something to sell, but hey, hyperbole sounds so much better doesn't it?


Maybe...

The perps in the Petit case originally planned to just rob the family and leave them bound...didn't work out that way though.
01/06/2013 10:16:58 PM · #211
Originally posted by HarveyG:

Originally posted by Ann:

"A gun in the home is twelve times more likely to result in the death of a household member or visitor than an intruder."


That's an erroneous stat. Naturally there are more friendly visitors to a persons home than there are intruders and thus the odds are stacked in the visitors favour. Poor education and/or lack of safety training seems to be the root cause IMO.

All I am saying is the person responsible/owner of the firearm should carry the burden if the weapon is "obtained" and used by someone else to commit a crime/murder etc. notwithstanding an evaluation of fitness to own and carry.

(PS: I can see all the counter arguments to my statement above, none of which are lost on me, but safety precautions (LAW) (locked in a safe rather than in the studio desk top drawer or a cupboard shoebox) seem lacking in the States?)


It's not an erroneous stat. It's a stat. It's based on actual evidence, not conjecture by people who wish it was different, or think that they're better than average in some way and that it can't happen to them.

We can argue about why it's so dangerous to have a gun in your home and what to do about it, but study after study shows that it *is* a lot more dangerous to have a gun in your home than not, and it's even more dangerous to try to use the gun when an intruder comes calling.

I live in a middle class world, full of responsible people. My experience with people owning guns follows the statistical patterns. Over the years I've personally known 12 people, 5 of them children, who were killed with guns the family owned, either in their own home or a friend's home. None of those killings involved an intruder. In every case except one, someone in the home was either active duty military or former military, so they weren't lacking in training.

On the other hand, I don't know anyone who has successfully used a gun against an intruder.

01/06/2013 10:50:55 PM · #212
Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Way to go MOM!!!! Georgia mom


What this really tells me is that the .38 might be underpowered.


I completely agree....there is no sidearm other than a .45......some people use a 9mm I would want a VERY large clip with a 9 mm. A .45 will knock the target down...
01/06/2013 10:55:15 PM · #213
Originally posted by Ann:

I don't know anyone who has successfully used a gun against an intruder.


Hi. I'm Spork.

You do now.

I know others who have as well.

Message edited by author 2013-01-06 22:56:41.
01/07/2013 01:31:24 AM · #214
I just found a new use for guns.

Arguable a large capacity clip and assault rifle would be excellent for larger trees.
01/07/2013 10:18:51 AM · #215
Originally posted by Cory:

I just found a new use for guns.

Arguable a large capacity clip and assault rifle would be excellent for larger trees.


Are we supposed to be impressed? A 10-year-old could have taken that tree down with her bare hands.
01/07/2013 11:24:03 AM · #216
Originally posted by Spork99:

Do people only purchase high performance automobiles because they feel sexually inadequate?

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Are you SERIOUS????

I've been a high-performance car freak my whole life......buying, building, restoring, and driving them, and for the most part, the high performance car buyers I've seen are filling a gap in their self-confidence in one form or another.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Geeze, Jeb, I love you like a brother but what qualifies you to pass that sort of judgment?

It's more of an observation than a judgement. I can't tell you the amount of grief I had over the years working on muscle & sports cars for the "Average Joe", quite a few who weren't qualified to own a hammer, much less a machine capable of triple digit speeds and serious cornering.

F'rinstance.....one day I fixed the secondaries on a 1970 GTO Judge for a guy. Three days later, he bent *13* pushrods. In a hydraulic lifter engine.... Tell me, how do you do that?

If you've been around these cars for very long, you know how little serious knowledge, talent, safety, and common sense is involved with their ownership, and all too many of the people selling and servicing them as well.

And these new cars......the Challengers, Mustangs, Camaros......who do you see behind the wheel of them now? Have you ever looked at the mileages of the ultra-high performance cars like Ferraris, Lambos, Bugattis, and the like? They're always for sale with stupid low mileages on them......'cause virtually nobody uses them as the extraordinarily capable supercars that they are.......they're rich man's status symbols for the most part. You can't tell me if you've had any serious exposure to Americans behind the wheel of special-interest cars that you don't know this.....

Look at BMWs, for example.......back when we were young, the *only* people that had those cars were people who knew *exactly* what they were, and what they were capable of........how many positive answers do you think you'd get if you asked 100 average BMW owners today if they knew what a Bavaria looks like? I'd even handicap that one and say you could exclusively ask men.

There is a reason for many stereotypes.......'cause some are just true.

Message edited by author 2013-01-07 11:26:09.
01/07/2013 11:37:52 AM · #217
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I've been a high-performance car freak my whole life......buying, building, restoring, and driving them, and for the most part, the high performance car buyers I've seen are filling a gap in their self-confidence in one form or another.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Geeze, Jeb, I love you like a brother but what qualifies you to pass that sort of judgment?

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

It's more of an observation than a judgement. I can't tell you the amount of grief I had over the years working on muscle & sports cars for the "Average Joe", quite a few who weren't qualified to own a hammer, much less a machine capable of triple digit speeds and serious cornering...

I don't dispute any of what you said in your latest post. I was taking exception to your characterization of all this as "a gap in their self-confidence".

Although I suppose in a very general sense this might well be true; and then I'd add to it that men who buy $100,000 wristwatches, women who have a closet full of hundreds of pairs of shoes, couples who build 25,000 square-foot houses, etc etc are all shoring up their self confidence, or self-image, by hiding behind their ability to outpurchase the likes of you and me.

Of course, I tend to think that motivations can be a little more narrowly categorized than that, but in the end what difference does it make? If I have a hundred grand to spare and my eye's lingering on a vintage Patek Phillipe, motivation's the least of my concerns :-)

Message edited by author 2013-01-07 11:38:48.
01/07/2013 11:45:32 AM · #218
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Do people only purchase high performance automobiles because they feel sexually inadequate?

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Are you SERIOUS????

I've been a high-performance car freak my whole life......buying, building, restoring, and driving them, and for the most part, the high performance car buyers I've seen are filling a gap in their self-confidence in one form or another.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Geeze, Jeb, I love you like a brother but what qualifies you to pass that sort of judgment?

It's more of an observation than a judgement. I can't tell you the amount of grief I had over the years working on muscle & sports cars for the "Average Joe", quite a few who weren't qualified to own a hammer, much less a machine capable of triple digit speeds and serious cornering.

F'rinstance.....one day I fixed the secondaries on a 1970 GTO Judge for a guy. Three days later, he bent *13* pushrods. In a hydraulic lifter engine.... Tell me, how do you do that?

If you've been around these cars for very long, you know how little serious knowledge, talent, safety, and common sense is involved with their ownership, and all too many of the people selling and servicing them as well.

And these new cars......the Challengers, Mustangs, Camaros......who do you see behind the wheel of them now? Have you ever looked at the mileages of the ultra-high performance cars like Ferraris, Lambos, Bugattis, and the like? They're always for sale with stupid low mileages on them......'cause virtually nobody uses them as the extraordinarily capable supercars that they are.......they're rich man's status symbols for the most part. You can't tell me if you've had any serious exposure to Americans behind the wheel of special-interest cars that you don't know this.....

Look at BMWs, for example.......back when we were young, the *only* people that had those cars were people who knew *exactly* what they were, and what they were capable of........how many positive answers do you think you'd get if you asked 100 average BMW owners today if they knew what a Bavaria looks like? I'd even handicap that one and say you could exclusively ask men.

There is a reason for many stereotypes.......'cause some are just true.


I see you've decided to take on the role of DPC's resident psychiatrist and car expert...

I see plenty of little old ladies driving around in Lexus sedans with ~300+HP on tap, luxury cars that will out maneuver and out accelerate many sports cars from 10 or 15 years ago. Or soccer moms driving 3ton 4WD SUV's that have never been off pavement. Do they "need" that much power or capability? Or are they compensating for something? What sayeth the good doctor Jeb?
01/07/2013 11:46:40 AM · #219
along the same lines, even though there is a nasty rumor about guns being a replacement for otherwise lacking sexual equipment,
here's a dude who has a gun and "confidence" about his parts to spare.

warning NSFW. and seriously, aside from the social Darwinism argument, watch this and then tell me there shouldn't be an intelligence test for gun ownership?

Message edited by author 2013-01-07 11:47:10.
01/07/2013 11:46:59 AM · #220
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I don't dispute any of what you said in your latest post. I was taking exception to your characterization of all this as "a gap in their self-confidence".

I know I feel more cool when I'm driving my MGB......8~)

01/07/2013 11:53:37 AM · #221
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by Cory:

I just found a new use for guns.

Arguable a large capacity clip and assault rifle would be excellent for larger trees.


Are we supposed to be impressed? A 10-year-old could have taken that tree down with her bare hands.


Nope... You were supposed to laugh. Sorry about your impaired sense of humor! ;)
01/07/2013 11:54:47 AM · #222
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

It's more of an observation than a judgement.

Originally posted by Spork99:

I see you've decided to take on the role of DPC's resident psychiatrist and car expert...

And I see you take whatever you want to out of context.......as usual. See emboldened.

PLEASE show me anywhere and/or any time where I have claimed to be *a* car expert, psychiatrist, or the resident one on DPC.

You won't find it.......unlike you, I don't think I know everything. I know better.
Originally posted by Spork99:

I see plenty of little old ladies driving around in Lexus sedans with ~300+HP on tap, luxury cars that will out maneuver and out accelerate many sports cars from 10 or 15 years ago. Or soccer moms driving 3ton 4WD SUV's that have never been off pavement. Do they "need" that much power or capability? Or are they compensating for something?

Hey, I was responding to a general question, with a generalization of my own, based on my own experience and observation.

That okay with you?

If not, oh well.....too bad about your luck.
01/07/2013 12:15:07 PM · #223
Originally posted by Spork99:

Or soccer moms driving 3ton 4WD SUV's that have never been off pavement. Do they "need" that much power or capability? Or are they compensating for something?

In this case, they seem to be counting on the vehicle's mass to help protect them and their kids when they're hit by the car going 100MPH ... so they are "compensating" on their side of the mass x acceleration equation ...

2 Dead, 1 Injured ...
Originally posted by Linked Article:


SAN FRANCISCO (KGO) -- San Francisco police are investigating a tragic series of incidents that started with a report of gunfire and a high speed getaway that ended with the deaths of two innocent people.

Police responded to the gunfire report in the Mission District Tuesday morning. The deadly car crash happened a few blocks away on South Van Ness at 21st Street, shortly after 8 a.m. Police had stopped the driver of one of the cars and when officers got out they say the driver bolted and within a few seconds two people were dead.
...
Police Chief Greg Suhr told reporters officers had stopped the driver several blocks away because they suspected he had fired some shots earlier inside a public housing complex near 15th and Valencia.

"As officers approached the vehicle, the vehicle took off at a high rate speed and ran through the next two intersections," said Suhr.

That's when the black Chevy hit the white Toyota at the intersection of 21st and South Van Ness. The passenger was identified by her brother-in-law as 29-year-old Sylvia Tuncun.

Jose Lopez says Tuncun and the driver were coming back from a party. The driver, her nephew, was sent to the hospital. He's in critical condition.
...
A third victim, a pedestrian was also hit by the white car and killed. The San Francisco Medical Examiner has identified the pedestrian killed as Francisco Gutierrez, 26, of San Francisco.

"As the vehicle was thrown against the store, there was also a mid 20-year-old male pedestrian walking into the store, he was also pronounced dead at the scene," said Suhr.

Police found a gun inside the suspect's car and the gang task force was called in. The suspect is recovering at San Francisco General and will be charged for the death of the two victims and passion of a firearm.
(Copyright ©2013 KGO-TV/DT. All Rights Reserved.)

Bay Area Car Chase Timeline
01/07/2013 12:21:31 PM · #224
So many accidents... link. If a cop can't figure out how to not have an accident with a gun, what hope is there for everyone else?
01/07/2013 12:49:56 PM · #225
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

It's more of an observation than a judgement.

Originally posted by Spork99:

I see you've decided to take on the role of DPC's resident psychiatrist and car expert...

And I see you take whatever you want to out of context.......as usual. See emboldened.

PLEASE show me anywhere and/or any time where I have claimed to be *a* car expert, psychiatrist, or the resident one on DPC.

You won't find it.......unlike you, I don't think I know everything. I know better.
Originally posted by Spork99:

I see plenty of little old ladies driving around in Lexus sedans with ~300+HP on tap, luxury cars that will out maneuver and out accelerate many sports cars from 10 or 15 years ago. Or soccer moms driving 3ton 4WD SUV's that have never been off pavement. Do they "need" that much power or capability? Or are they compensating for something?

Hey, I was responding to a general question, with a generalization of my own, based on my own experience and observation.

That okay with you?

If not, oh well.....too bad about your luck.


That wasn't part of your response, was it? You only came up with that after you were called out.

You may not claim it, but you sure do act like the resident expert and you seem to get awfully irate in your posts when you're contradicted.

I don't have to approve of your response, but I'll continue to call out BS when I see it.

So, are those little old ladies making up for something missing in their lives or what?
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