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01/25/2013 09:04:01 PM · #901 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Statistics say a lot of things and if you choose to trust them, you'd be all to willing to stand outside in a lightning storm under a tree, because statistically, you're very unlikely to get struck by lightning. |
There are no guarantees in life. There are just plenty of us who would rather use our intelligence, wits, common sense, and experience to avoid bad situations rather than confront them with a gun and roll the dice. |
You pick the chances you take. You make it sound as if gun owners have their trusty sidearm and go charging about looking for trouble. Just more of your ridiculous bullshit. No one wants trouble, but sometimes it's not that you go looking for it, but that it finds you. Then all you've got to offer is a cup of tea.
You sound like the Chicken Littles who were running about waving their arms crying that the sky was falling when the legislation went through that made my home a "shall issue" Concealed carry permit state. There were all manner of dire predictions of daily shootouts in the streets, people blowing each other away over cutting in line or fender benders. 300k carry permits later and even the staunchest opponents are forced to admit that it's a non-issue. |
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01/25/2013 09:07:32 PM · #902 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
You can put your theory to the test, come visit Flint and take a walk. I doubt you'd get 3 blocks. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Maybe we're smarter and more cautious than that.....I know I don't go looking for trouble. That's the fly in the ointment for your tea, rainbows, and unicorns bullshit. You seem to equate not wanting an excess of firearms around with cluelessness. That is not the case.
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Originally posted by Spork99:
It's not that you would go looking for trouble, it's that you stumble into it, or it finds you. Of course maybe you're super skilled at avoiding it or you make magic rainbow unicorn tea that will keep you safe. |
But I use my head and limit my exposure to the possibility.......I don't base my decisions on "What ifs".
I don't think anyone in this discussion supposes that there are any guarantees of total safety. But most of us are smart enough and savvy enough not to put ourselves in harm's way under all but the most extreme circumstances.
Obfuscate all you want, but guns simply aren't the answer. It seems to me that the most expert with weaponry would be the most vocal for the advocacy of solid, sensible owners. And the only way to do that is to weed out the crazies. Regulation could make that happen.
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01/25/2013 09:08:33 PM · #903 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Does it matter if he was armed or not. He was carrying a pry bar. A short time later, another home in the area was broken into and the occupants beaten severely. Maybe it was the guy who I scared off, maybe not. You're free to believe what you want, live in whatever fantasy world you like with all the rainbows and unicorns your mind can muster. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
But you can not tell us definitively that it was the same person. That's the point.
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Originally posted by Spork99:
Nope, but you can't tell me it wasn't either. |
That's just it. I'm not the one trying to justify his actions.....you are.
Again......point is, you don't know, and never will. That doesn't justify your rationale for your gun.
I'd so much rather you just be honest and say you want your guns because you like them, rather than hang it on an unjustifiable rationale. |
You don't know either and you never will. I'd rather have my gun and never need it for that again than to not have it. If I knew for 100% certain that such a thing would never happen or that I could make a magic unicorn wish and they'd be in your house instead, I would. |
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01/25/2013 09:10:05 PM · #904 |
Originally posted by kawesttex:
I have stayed out of this for several reasons but I would like some you northern folks, including Canadians, to think about living in, on, or near the Mexican border. I don't think anyone adjacent to the Canadian border has the same problem that someone from Del Rio, Tx has.
Everyone lives in a different situation and just because you live in unicorn land doesn't mean everyone does. I think someone said that it's all situational, get over it and let them protect themselves if they feel the need.
I do! |
AMEN brother
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01/25/2013 09:14:45 PM · #905 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Statistics say a lot of things and if you choose to trust them, you'd be all to willing to stand outside in a lightning storm under a tree, because statistically, you're very unlikely to get struck by lightning. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
There are no guarantees in life. There are just plenty of us who would rather use our intelligence, wits, common sense, and experience to avoid bad situations rather than confront them with a gun and roll the dice. |
Originally posted by Spork99:
You pick the chances you take. You make it sound as if gun owners have their trusty sidearm and go charging about looking for trouble. Just more of your ridiculous bullshit. No one wants trouble, but sometimes it's not that you go looking for it, but that it finds you. Then all you've got to offer is a cup of tea.
Ah, yes......the cup of tea thing again. Can't you come up with something a little better than that? FYI, I never drink the stuff, so let that one go, okay? You know perfectly well that you can limit your exposure to situations where a gun is a viable solution to a point where it's a complete non-issue. If you live somewhere you feel that gun ownership is wise, then maybe that's not such a great place to live, n'est pas?
[quote=Spork99]You sound like the Chicken Littles who were running about waving their arms crying that the sky was falling when the legislation went through that made my home a "shall issue" Concealed carry permit state. There were all manner of dire predictions of daily shootouts in the streets, people blowing each other away over cutting in line or fender benders. 300k carry permits later and even the staunchest opponents are forced to admit that it's a non-issue. |
All you've succeeded in having me understand is that it must suck to live where you do. Gun deaths aren't so common here where I live. Yet I live in a rural area where lots of redneck hunters live, that own guns.
Maybe you ought to take a good hard look at why you'd want to live where you do.
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01/25/2013 09:18:18 PM · #906 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
that I could make a magic unicorn wish and they'd be in your house instead, I would. |
I certainly hope that everyone reads this......
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01/25/2013 09:45:32 PM · #907 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by kawesttex:
I have stayed out of this for several reasons but I would like some you northern folks, including Canadians, to think about living in, on, or near the Mexican border. I don't think anyone adjacent to the Canadian border has the same problem that someone from Del Rio, Tx has.
Everyone lives in a different situation and just because you live in unicorn land doesn't mean everyone does. I think someone said that it's all situational, get over it and let them protect themselves if they feel the need.
I do! |
...and that would explain why guns are so prevalent in all of the States listed Here right?
Rather sad that Pogo of comic strip fame said it best: ""We have met the enemy and he is us".
Ray |
That is exactly why I stay out of STUPID discussions that some of you folks are involved in. They don't really care about the reality, just their twisted and argumentative position.
Numbers lie and liars use numbers. Any statistic can be manipulated to fit the argument.
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01/25/2013 10:05:18 PM · #908 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Look, I don't own a gun. I've never been in a position where I wished I did own a gun, so I could use it for defensive reasons. As far as I'm aware, nobody I know or have known personally has ever had a reason, outside of warfare, to wish they were armed so they could defend themselves or others. If they HAVE been in such a position, they never told me about it. And, as Ann pointed out statistical evidence shows OVERWHELMINGLY that your personal safety decreases, rather than increases, when you keep guns in the home.
Now, y'all can go on and ON about how you are exceptions to the rule, for whatever reason: training, psychology, whatever. But none of this changes the fact that HERE, in AMERICA, it's clearly the case that you're less likely to be hurt by a gun if you don't keep guns in the home. Meanwhile, evidence from OTHER, first-world countries shows that you're MUCH less likely to die as the result of a crime being committed where MUCH more stringent gun control than ours is in place.
These are FACTS, guys. You're operating under the influence of some macho-jingoistic worldview that you're unwilling to modify. I've read the "Thinking Fast and Slow" book that Ann mentions also, and I recommend it to every reader of this thread. It's an incredibly revealing, penetrating analysis, backed up with real science, of what actually goes on in our brains. |
^ This bears repeating. Society is no different. Growing up in Brooklyn I've seen how having a high concentration of gun owners reduces the safety of everyone in the community. I've seen too many suffer as a result.. It doesn't have to be this way. |
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01/25/2013 10:17:56 PM · #909 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Spork99:
that I could make a magic unicorn wish and they'd be in your house instead, I would. |
I certainly hope that everyone reads this...... |
You seem to be confident that you would be able to deal with armed intruders without a gun using some other means. I lack that ability. |
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01/25/2013 10:58:47 PM · #910 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Look, I don't own a gun. I've never been in a position where I wished I did own a gun, so I could use it for defensive reasons. As far as I'm aware, nobody I know or have known personally has ever had a reason, outside of warfare, to wish they were armed so they could defend themselves or others. If they HAVE been in such a position, they never told me about it. And, as Ann pointed out statistical evidence shows OVERWHELMINGLY that your personal safety decreases, rather than increases, when you keep guns in the home.
Now, y'all can go on and ON about how you are exceptions to the rule, for whatever reason: training, psychology, whatever. But none of this changes the fact that HERE, in AMERICA, it's clearly the case that you're less likely to be hurt by a gun if you don't keep guns in the home. Meanwhile, evidence from OTHER, first-world countries shows that you're MUCH less likely to die as the result of a crime being committed where MUCH more stringent gun control than ours is in place.
These are FACTS, guys. You're operating under the influence of some macho-jingoistic worldview that you're unwilling to modify. I've read the "Thinking Fast and Slow" book that Ann mentions also, and I recommend it to every reader of this thread. It's an incredibly revealing, penetrating analysis, backed up with real science, of what actually goes on in our brains. |
^ This bears repeating. Society is no different. Growing up in Brooklyn I've seen how having a high concentration of gun owners reduces the safety of everyone in the community. I've seen too many suffer as a result.. It doesn't have to be this way. |
Growing up in Western North Carolina (which is obviously an entirely different planet than Brooklyn), I have also lived among a high concentration of gun owners. And while we have the occasional shooting here and there, fists and knives seem to be the weapons of choice.
As I said earlier in this thread (or perhaps another one), I'm not sure it is the *volume* of guns or gun owners in an area, but more the culture surrounding said owners. Guns are VERY common here, most every one owns them (and as a result, young kids are taught proper safety rules when handling them), and many are used regularly (I know several families that hunt for their meat rather than buy it). Yet, shooting sprees and assault with guns are rare. |
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01/25/2013 11:36:26 PM · #911 |
Originally posted by kawesttex:
I have stayed out of this for several reasons but I would like some you northern folks, including Canadians, to think about living in, on, or near the Mexican border. |
There are plenty of good reasons to own and use weapons. I was once upbraiding a guy I knew for owning a fully automatic assult weapon and he shut me down with simple story. He has a boat that he sails out of St. Thomas. People have tried to board his boat in the open ocean. "Pirates of the Caribbean is not just a ride at Disneyland". He needs to outgun the bad guys where the police are not an option.
I do not doubt that Ken has similar concerns. The situation in Mexico is getting worse every year the Narco Cartels outgun the police and they are exporting their gang chapters north of the border. If you live near corridors where they run their drugs or other businesses over the border, you do not want to get in their way. So we need guns to protect ourselves from their guns.
Of course we would have less need for guns if the criminals had a tougher time getting guns. A few years ago there was a rare joint session of congress to hear Mexican President Felipe Calderón. He told them "I understand that the purpose of the Second Amendment is to guarantee good American citizens the ability to defend themselves and their nation," he said. "But believe me, many of these guns are not going to honest American hands."
Calderón said his government had seized 75,000 guns in Mexico in a three-year period and found that 80 percent of those whose origin could be traced were bought in the United States.The Mexican leader also asked lawmakers to "consider reinstating" the assault weapons ban, a 10-year measure passed in 1994.
Of course the only action congress has taken on controlling the guns flowing to Mexico is the investigation into the the ATF's botched "Fast and Furious" sting, which was supposed to see how American guns were getting to the Narco Gangs.
Is it hypocrisy when the only action congress has taken in response to a request from the head of state of an ally nation, is to investigate a failed investigation, yet refuses to take any action to limit sales to the Narco Traffickers. Those same Narco trafficers who threaten the stability of Mexico and who make our border state citizens feel they have to arm themselves to feel like they have a chance.
Message edited by author 2013-01-26 05:37:58. |
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01/26/2013 10:06:59 AM · #912 |
Originally posted by kawesttex:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by kawesttex:
I have stayed out of this for several reasons but I would like some you northern folks, including Canadians, to think about living in, on, or near the Mexican border. I don't think anyone adjacent to the Canadian border has the same problem that someone from Del Rio, Tx has.
Everyone lives in a different situation and just because you live in unicorn land doesn't mean everyone does. I think someone said that it's all situational, get over it and let them protect themselves if they feel the need.
I do! |
...and that would explain why guns are so prevalent in all of the States listed Here right?
Rather sad that Pogo of comic strip fame said it best: ""We have met the enemy and he is us".
Ray |
That is exactly why I stay out of STUPID discussions that some of you folks are involved in. They don't really care about the reality, just their twisted and argumentative position.
Numbers lie and liars use numbers. Any statistic can be manipulated to fit the argument. |
I shall therefore work on the premise that you have not yet been able to find numbers that would LIE for you then... right?
If you can't find them ask others who support your views, I am certain they would be more than happy to help. :O)
Ray |
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01/26/2013 11:12:00 AM · #913 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
You seem to be confident that you would be able to deal with armed intruders without a gun using some other means. I lack that ability. |
PLEASE specify where I EVER said this.
You're the one who seems to think the answer is armed confrontation and who will do whatever he feels like.
It would be helpful if you would at least not make things up.
Not everyone feels that threats and violence are the answer.
It's so sad that you do. How awful your life must be.
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01/26/2013 11:17:47 AM · #914 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by kawesttex:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by kawesttex:
I have stayed out of this for several reasons but I would like some you northern folks, including Canadians, to think about living in, on, or near the Mexican border. I don't think anyone adjacent to the Canadian border has the same problem that someone from Del Rio, Tx has.
Everyone lives in a different situation and just because you live in unicorn land doesn't mean everyone does. I think someone said that it's all situational, get over it and let them protect themselves if they feel the need.
I do! |
...and that would explain why guns are so prevalent in all of the States listed Here right?
Rather sad that Pogo of comic strip fame said it best: ""We have met the enemy and he is us".
Ray |
That is exactly why I stay out of STUPID discussions that some of you folks are involved in. They don't really care about the reality, just their twisted and argumentative position.
Numbers lie and liars use numbers. Any statistic can be manipulated to fit the argument. |
I shall therefore work on the premise that you have not yet been able to find numbers that would LIE for you then... right?
If you can't find them ask others who support your views, I am certain they would be more than happy to help. :O)
Ray |
I don't have to scour the web to find some obscure statistic to support my beliefs. You go look since you are the all knowledgeable searcher for trivia. |
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01/26/2013 11:18:14 AM · #915 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Look, I don't own a gun. I've never been in a position where I wished I did own a gun, so I could use it for defensive reasons. As far as I'm aware, nobody I know or have known personally has ever had a reason, outside of warfare, to wish they were armed so they could defend themselves or others. If they HAVE been in such a position, they never told me about it. |
You've also lived, traveled and visited a great many places here in the US, and have many, many friends, moreso than the average bear (yuk, yuk!), so your statistic covers some more ground.
I too have moved around, less so than Bear, but I agree with this assessment, and it has been my observation as well.
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01/26/2013 11:34:31 AM · #916 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Spork99:
that I could make a magic unicorn wish and they'd be in your house instead, I would. |
I certainly hope that everyone reads this...... |
You seem to be confident that you would be able to deal with armed intruders without a gun using some other means. I lack that ability. |
You've already invested in an alarm system ... you could build yourself a panic room and keep everyone alive ... |
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01/26/2013 12:38:03 PM · #917 |
Originally posted by kawesttex:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by kawesttex:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by kawesttex:
I have stayed out of this for several reasons but I would like some you northern folks, including Canadians, to think about living in, on, or near the Mexican border. I don't think anyone adjacent to the Canadian border has the same problem that someone from Del Rio, Tx has.
Everyone lives in a different situation and just because you live in unicorn land doesn't mean everyone does. I think someone said that it's all situational, get over it and let them protect themselves if they feel the need.
I do! |
...and that would explain why guns are so prevalent in all of the States listed Here right?
Rather sad that Pogo of comic strip fame said it best: ""We have met the enemy and he is us".
Ray |
That is exactly why I stay out of STUPID discussions that some of you folks are involved in. They don't really care about the reality, just their twisted and argumentative position.
Numbers lie and liars use numbers. Any statistic can be manipulated to fit the argument. |
I shall therefore work on the premise that you have not yet been able to find numbers that would LIE for you then... right?
If you can't find them ask others who support your views, I am certain they would be more than happy to help. :O)
Ray |
I don't have to scour the web to find some obscure statistic to support my beliefs. You go look since you are the all knowledgeable searcher for trivia. |
... and you base you comments on what, speculation, anecdotal evidence, mere suppositions, what?. No offence, but you do sound like someone who would argue "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts".
Tell me that you have had to investigate crimes, accidents and the occasional suicide where guns were involved and I might lend more credence to what you are advancing, but in the interim I will stick to demonstrable statistics.
Ray |
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01/26/2013 12:40:03 PM · #918 |
To be fair, if I lived in some parts of Miami or in narcotraficante corridors, two name a couple troublesome spots, I'd be looking seriously at arming myself as well. In my own experience, over my youth to adulthood, I have watched the California/Mexico border disintegrate into a very dangerous place. I used to spend as much time as possible in Baja California, camping and fishing and traveling the wilderness, but began to feel unsafe there. And, of course, no American is allowed to go armed in Mexico; instant jail if they catch you.
So I'm not oblivious to the issues here. At my age, I'd rather move than confront them, but I realize that's not always, or even often, a viable option. |
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01/26/2013 02:34:27 PM · #919 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by kawesttex:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by kawesttex:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by kawesttex:
I have stayed out of this for several reasons but I would like some you northern folks, including Canadians, to think about living in, on, or near the Mexican border. I don't think anyone adjacent to the Canadian border has the same problem that someone from Del Rio, Tx has.
Everyone lives in a different situation and just because you live in unicorn land doesn't mean everyone does. I think someone said that it's all situational, get over it and let them protect themselves if they feel the need.
I do! |
...and that would explain why guns are so prevalent in all of the States listed Here right?
Rather sad that Pogo of comic strip fame said it best: ""We have met the enemy and he is us".
Ray |
That is exactly why I stay out of STUPID discussions that some of you folks are involved in. They don't really care about the reality, just their twisted and argumentative position.
Numbers lie and liars use numbers. Any statistic can be manipulated to fit the argument. |
I shall therefore work on the premise that you have not yet been able to find numbers that would LIE for you then... right?
If you can't find them ask others who support your views, I am certain they would be more than happy to help. :O)
Ray |
I don't have to scour the web to find some obscure statistic to support my beliefs. You go look since you are the all knowledgeable searcher for trivia. |
... and you base you comments on what, speculation, anecdotal evidence, mere suppositions, what?. No offence, but you do sound like someone who would argue "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts".
Tell me that you have had to investigate crimes, accidents and the occasional suicide where guns were involved and I might lend more credence to what you are advancing, but in the interim I will stick to demonstrable statistics.
Ray |
You just don't get it Ray, I do what I think I need to do and I could give a damn what you think. If you have to go through life justifying every little thing you do with web statistics and 'facts', then waste your time and go with the internet flow. You have no idea what my life experiences have been and I refuse to divulge them. That is between my family, friends, and me.
I am impressed that you believe that you have singularly had all life experiences thus you are the expert in letting all others know how they should live their lives. Oh, that's right you haven't done everything but have experienced most through the WWW!
This is why I usually don't post in bullshit opinionated threads. Too many people think they know too much. Last post and I'll continue to be entertained with the dribble.
Good day! |
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01/26/2013 02:59:21 PM · #920 |
Originally posted by kawesttex:
Too many people think they know too much. |
Ah yes the keep it dumb strategy. Guard your brain like you guard your home. That always works. |
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01/26/2013 04:26:43 PM · #921 |
Originally posted by kawesttex:
... You have no idea what my life experiences have been and I refuse to divulge them. That is between my family, friends, and me. |
... and I don't recall anyone asking you to divulge anything about your life experience.
Originally posted by kawesttex:
I am impressed that you believe that you have singularly had all life experiences thus you are the expert in letting all others know how they should live their lives. Oh, that's right you haven't done everything but have experienced most through the WWW! |
... and you would base your analysis of my life's experience on what exactly, you don't know jack about me.
Originally posted by kawesttex:
This is why I usually don't post in bullshit opinionated threads. Too many people think they know too much. Last post and I'll continue to be entertained with the dribble.
Good day! |
... but you see, what you offered was just that... merely an opinion that you still have not even tried to support with any form of data.
I am glad that you are entertained... at least that is a plus, right?
Ray
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01/26/2013 06:45:26 PM · #922 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Spork99:
You seem to be confident that you would be able to deal with armed intruders without a gun using some other means. I lack that ability. |
PLEASE specify where I EVER said this.
You're the one who seems to think the answer is armed confrontation and who will do whatever he feels like.
It would be helpful if you would at least not make things up.
Not everyone feels that threats and violence are the answer.
It's so sad that you do. How awful your life must be. |
Then enlighten us Oh Great One. What is your plan for dealing with that kind of situation? You wake up and hear someone in your house...You call 911. You have 20-30 minutes before the cops arrive. You hear steps coming towards the bedroom |
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01/26/2013 07:12:37 PM · #923 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
You have 20-30 minutes before the cops arrive. |
While your basic point is sound, in most metropolitain areas average 911 response time is around 10 minuets, it is closer to 5 minuets in my town. Granted that is a long time when your home is stormed by heavily armed psychotic killers bent on rape and murder. Luckily that is not a common occurrence in my neighborhood.
In stressed urban areas where police forces are being cut back in tight budgetary times, these response times will go up, and Flint seems to be the poster child on that one. Even in poverty ravaged, gun flooded, gang infested Oakland the average is 17 minuets. from what i read, Flint is much worse. |
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01/26/2013 07:28:07 PM · #924 |
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01/26/2013 07:34:19 PM · #925 |
Originally posted by kawesttex:
How long is a 'minuet'? |
It depends on how fast the band plays, but about 60 seconds |
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