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08/24/2004 01:15:13 PM · #51 |
I agree with RickDN who posted a few posts back, and try to keep a similar attitude.
Step back from thinking of the contest as a prize for a ribbon. Make the contest more about competing with yourself. If you scored better than 45% of the photos last week, make your next goal to break the 50th percentile, or 60th percentile. If you haven't gotten an average higher than 5.5 or 6.0, work for that. Make it about improving on your own skills, not comparing youself to the ribbon winners each week!
Use the challenges as a chance to try something you haven't done before. I have never shot a nude photograph before, and spent a lot of time last week experimenting with light and poses. I learned SO MUCH just for the one challenge and am getting my highest scores yet. Even if I don't ribbon, it's been my personal best effort, and for that alone it's been a great challenge for me.
And comment, comment, comment. I think that's where the real learning comes from for those on the amateur end. Learn to look for what works and what doesn't, what makes a strong photo, and what makes a photo fail. The more you practice this criticism the easier you find it to apply it when you're setting up your own shots. Really! I've been here only two months and know I'm better than when I joined. And that was just by looking at the great wealth of photos, reading their set-up details, and offering my own opinions.
Learn, Learn, Learn -- not Win, Win, Win! It's in the attitude. :)
Good luck!
Message edited by author 2004-08-24 13:21:45. |
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08/24/2004 01:17:12 PM · #52 |
Time in photography doesn't always equate to a better photographer.
The same as equipment doesn't really make or break a good shot.
I think so many people put so much emphasis on skill and equipment when all the need is a simple vision.
That's probably the first lesson one should get on board.
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08/24/2004 01:17:43 PM · #53 |
I read your opening statement and have to say (in due respect) I disagree. I only have been a registered user of DPC for a few months. I looked around for a while before I started voting and I voted on a few challenges before finally submitting to a challenge. Yes there are some professional photographers here and I know their work is going to stand out. But we can learn from that. As the old saying goes, a picture is worth a 1000 words, it is true when you are an amateur in need of experience if you learn from their technique. Then there are amateurs here with pro cameras, but it doesnt make them a professional photographer. And you have to take into consideration that the majority of voters are amateurs some may not appreciate or understand the PROFESSIONALS composition or techniques . I have seen amateurs win ribbons or come close, and I have seen Professions rank very low in a challenge percentile. To sum up my debate, I believe DPC is fair. I may not win a ribbon for a while but I can promise you that I will take better and better photographs gained from the inspiration of a professional photographers photograph. Not to mention from a lot of amateurs that has become IMO professionals judging by their work. Take their comments and advice and apply to your work. You may be surprised at what they can teach you.
NOTE: TO ANY PROFESSIONAL OR AMATEUR YOU ARE WELCOME TO COMMENT ON MY PHOTOGRAPHS (GOOD OR BAD), THE ONLY WAY FOR ME TO LEARN!
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08/24/2004 01:20:20 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by SDW65:
NOTE: TO ANY PROFESSIONAL OR AMATEUR YOU ARE WELCOME TO COMMENT ON MY PHOTOGRAPHS (GOOD OR BAD), THE ONLY WAY FOR ME TO LEARN! |
Dude, learn from yourself first - you will be rewarded far higher if you do.
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08/24/2004 01:21:41 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
The same as equipment doesn't really make or break a good shot.
I think so many people put so much emphasis on skill and equipment when all the need is a simple vision.
That's probably the first lesson one should get on board. |
My photo mentor used to say something like. " 'People always say, that's a fantastic image - you must have great equipment.'
When they do, I ask them, 'If you read a great book, do you tell the author they must have a great word processor?' "
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08/24/2004 01:24:46 PM · #56 |
Likewise I have professional standard golf clubs - but do i play like a professional :D
No sir unfortunately i play like a Muppet.
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08/24/2004 01:26:58 PM · #57 |
| I understand that the point is supposed to be about the individual photo. but when it comes down to it, it's about comparison. As for me, I'm always learning, from forums, books, magazines, other photographers, even painters etc. because in what I do the pose is more important than the composition. but by giving someone a ribbon, you inadvertantly tell someone they were better than all the rest which makes it a competition. I doubt you'd see half the submissions if it were only people commenting. I for one would look at every photo, I wouldn't rate all of them because some of them are not worth rating (in my opinion and tastes) I'm sure there will be people to skip my photo. Just because people don't like your photo, doesn't mean it's bad. Some artists are understood and like by the masses until years after their death. Some hacks take one good photo and people love everything after even if it sucks ass (again by my opinion, as i can't speak for the masses). To sum it all up I think it's unfair to rate people on a level that they are not on. |
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08/24/2004 01:29:43 PM · #58 |
| I really don't know how this all got turned to equipment. I never said you have to have a billion dollar setup to take a good photo. I merely said give someone a doorway before you ridicule their hopes away. |
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08/24/2004 01:31:40 PM · #59 |
Joe:
You just registered at DPC 10 days ago. You haven't even really given the existing DPC "infrastructure" a fair shake as far as I'm concerned.
On top of that, splitting up the challenges has been discussed many times in the forums, and it is always the same arguments from both sides. This thread will not be any different.
Finally, because you are a professional portrait photographer, I assume you realize that you would therefore be in the "Pro" or "Experienced" category. So are you saying that you don't want to have to compete against the inexperienced "amateurs"?
Message edited by author 2004-08-24 13:32:19.
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08/24/2004 01:38:44 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by magicshutter:
I really don't know how this all got turned to equipment. I never said you have to have a billion dollar setup to take a good photo. I merely said give someone a doorway before you ridicule their hopes away. |
I understand what you are saying and for one respect your opinion. And understand that you were just offering a suggestion. It may take me a loooooooong time to win a ribbon, but thats not my goal. My goal is to be a good photographer that is happy with his work and willing to reach for more. And I believe I can learn from the Professionals and Great amateurs. Plus take jonpink advice and learn from myself. IMO if I ranked near the top of a challenge with professionals involved it would inspire me even more. Just my 2 cents. |
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08/24/2004 01:38:50 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Joe:
You just registered at DPC 10 days ago. You haven't even really given the existing DPC "infrastructure" a fair shake as far as I'm concerned.
On top of that, splitting up the challenges has been discussed many times in the forums, and it is always the same arguments from both sides. This thread will not be any different.
Finally, because you are a professional portrait photographer, I assume you realize that you would therefore be in the "Pro" or "Experienced" category. So are you saying that you don't want to have to compete against the inexperienced "amateurs"? |
I would rather my status be judged on the quality of my photos as opposed to the fact that I do it as a job. It's hard to have an answer when being put on the spot and asked if I want to be judged with amateurs. I see myself in limbo, I see alot of photographers on this site that I would not want to go against, and a few I think I could beat. I would accept what ever catagory that the admins thought I belonged in. I have only been here for 10 days, and that is why I posted this so soon. I did not want people to think I was pissed because I did poorly, or some other similar reason. I didn't think I would create a war of words it was more of an idea. I hope my first submission does well, but I expect there are some people here that will blast me out of the water but that's ok. |
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08/24/2004 01:38:59 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by turquoise919:
Make it about improving on your own skills, not comparing youself to the ribbon winners each week!
Use the challenges as a chance to try something you haven't done before.
Learn, Learn, Learn -- not Win, Win, Win! It's in the attitude. :)
Good luck! |
Perfectly stated! When I am not busy being an idiot and entering something "just to enter", I am so happy now to enter something that gets in the 5+ ranges with 50%+ percentiles - because that doing great for me. I got 6+ once and was doing the happy dance - because I thought I would never see a 6 and may not ever again. But the point is "challenging" yourself with what you have to work with, learning, and seeing your work improve. I compare my work to my own previous work; I look and learn from those with the skill, training and talent that I aspire to.
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08/24/2004 01:39:23 PM · #63 |
I am not a pro, and I love competing in challenges here. I think photography is in the eye of the view and beholder. Not in the studio you own or equipment you buy. I have taken amazing shots with disposable 35mm cams in the past and have taken lowsy shots with my Canon 10D. But, the more photos I take, the more comments I receive, the better I get. I place around the 5 average level here, and that's not bad. I haven't won a ribbon, but I bet some ribbons have been won by people with little experience and smaller, more automatic cameras.
I agree that competing with the pros will make me become one one day... it's all training and practice!
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08/24/2004 01:39:46 PM · #64 |
[quote=RickDN]
No, I think having folks of all skill levels grouped together is just wonderful. Makes it interesting, for sure. A complete newbie to photography can learn very quickly here. Study photographers you like.. browse around the site a bunch. It's an awesome grouping of talent.
I agree with Rick:As I was reading this thread I began to realize what this site means to me. Yes there is pros here (to learn from) and many amateurs who can and do help, not just in taking photographs but in helping with knowledge of equipment and much more. I interred my first challenge in March and two weeks later I was in a serious automobile accident (lucky to be here now) lost a friend and spent a month in the hospital. When I got home I was very depressed and bed ridden. Made life very difficult for my wife and family due to the depression, was told by the doctors that I could not return to the work I have done for 30 years, I asked myself now what can I do. It is very hard to suddenly have to give up something you love and have done for so many years.
For the first month of lying around and feeling sorry for myself, I was miserable, then one day I had my wife set up my laptop on the bed before she left for work. I started to spend a lot of time on this site, voting on challenges and reading the threads. Soon I was feeling better and wanting to enter challenges, but it took another couple months before I could get out of bed for any length of time. But during this time I really started to learn so much and still learning now.
Before I joined this site I thought I was a decent photographer but soon realized that I was actually not very good at all, but through this site and the people on it I have a new passion for Photography and by competing against so many fine photographers I will continue to learn and improve. So what is my point to this? We can learn and improve through challenges with so many different levels of photographers. This site works the way it is and it means a lot of different things to all of us. I could mention so many GREAT photographers on here but the list is to long, I love to see their work and always look forward to the challenges just to see what do.
Sorry if I rambled on but just thought this was a good time to put my two cents worth in.
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08/24/2004 01:41:30 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by SDW65:
Originally posted by magicshutter:
I really don't know how this all got turned to equipment. I never said you have to have a billion dollar setup to take a good photo. I merely said give someone a doorway before you ridicule their hopes away. |
I understand what you are saying and for one respect your opinion. And understand that you were just offering a suggestion. It may take me a loooooooong time to win a ribbon, but thats not my goal. My goal is to be a good photographer that is happy with his work and willing to reach for more. And I believe I can learn from the Professionals and Great amateurs. Plus take jonpink advice and learn from myself. IMO if I ranked near the top of a challenge with professionals involved it would inspire me even more. Just my 2 cents. |
Indeed, I personally try to comment with my personal style. I try and suggest what I would have done, and not necessarily as what is 'wrong' |
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08/24/2004 01:43:17 PM · #66 |
I don't really know, or care, who the 'pros' are on this site. As with most people, I have mainly shot snaps over the years, now I'm having to think about each challenge and the best composition for the photo in order to stand a chance.
Four challenges later and I have just cleared an average 5.0 which is an improvement and I do more spend time thinking before shooting.
This site isn't perfect and nor will it ever be, there are such a variety of members and users that there can never be agreement on any issue, just look at the threads on the meanings of challenges.
I have suggested in previous threads that there could be a grading system for challenges. Those who have just started on the site could be grade 1, those who have entered 10 challenges or won a ribbon could be grade 2 and those who have entered 25 or won more than one ribbon could be grade 3.
Just because someone chooses to pay for membership should not raise their grading. I don't think that ppl can be judged by the equipment they use, some are better off than others, whilst other would pour their last penny/dollar into the latest camera.
Lastly, I think there should be a system that downgrades a submission that fails to follow the Challenge definition. Take Botany for example,
two of the winning photos were macro shots of flowers. Now look at the Macro challenge, again the winning photos were macro shots of flowers. There were other photos that were not macro shots in Botany and they failed to score despite following the challenge to the letter.
So, let's get some ground rules sorted that will stop this kind of whining all the time, so we enjoy our photography as it should be.
Politics free! |
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08/24/2004 01:45:28 PM · #67 |
and again, it's not about "beating" anyone. :)
the site is inherently subjective. i think of it more as a forum to show others what you do and to give/receive feedback.
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08/24/2004 01:50:00 PM · #68 |
does the girl at Wal-Mart in the portrait corner count as a "pro" I mean she has a good camera, decent flashes, ok background...and her shots are consitent from image to image!
To me it's irrelevant who's a pro, who's an am and who's an xenomorphing alien...as long as I feel like I'm part of something grand...weeeee!
I was the only shooter with a "silver" camera at a fashion recently....felt like minimouse...but I still took my shots....and they were gooooood.
Message edited by author 2004-08-24 13:53:02.
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08/24/2004 02:16:52 PM · #69 |
OK, i've read this and I didn't think I would comment but here I go...
It's all a question of attitude and passion.
I've been here for a while and I must say that my reasons for being here have changed over the last 2 years... yes I have a competitive spirit and that pushes me to do better. But the single most important thing is to have a positive attitude about the comment given, the comments made and your self-critique.
If we had "experienced" and "beginners" challenges when I joined up I probably would be shooting at the level I'm at now. I've spent many hours studying winning shots and reading forms and eating up the "Learn" section of the site. That's how I won my 1st ribbon then the next and so on.
Not having a pro studio is sometimes frustrating but we have to get back to the positive attitude.... instead of saying to myself "I can't compete with someone with a pro studio." I try to think of creative ways to acheive my desired shot. That has made me use my CoolPix to its full potential.
A positive attitude towards a passion stimulates creativity and it's whith that that you'll keep on surpassing yourself.
My 2 cents.... :-)
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08/24/2004 03:13:57 PM · #70 |
I enjoy taking photos.
I like the way the themed challenges push me and help me learn.
I like the comments and feedback, good and bad
I like the way I have come to know so many people at this site
I set my own personal goals
I don't care who I'm up against and enjoy everyones interperation of the theme.
Its that simple. Bob
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08/24/2004 03:32:39 PM · #71 |
Totally agee with Bob.
The only reason I am here is to learn, get feedback from ppl and look at what others achieved and learn how. |
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08/24/2004 04:00:52 PM · #72 |
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08/24/2004 04:18:07 PM · #73 |
I feel a strong need to reply to many of the assertions and ideas presented in this thread. I am a professional, as of now semi retired.
I started photography at the age of 12 by building a pin hole camera out of card board. I am now 66 and until Sept 2003, I can boast I always had a dark-room. I have gone through all phases in styles. I even used a view camera when I studied Ansel Adams and I mixed all of his esoteric chemicals. I have earned my income strictly through photography.
However, I am the eternal student. The more I learn, the less I know.
If the dedicated student seeks to learn, the information and books and advise exist all around.
The question of professional versus amateur was more applicable in the old days. The new cameras are ready and willing to take a good picture with the least intervention. The more you interfere with your cameras' auto controls, the better your work will get. But you need to learn the basics.
If you were to apply yourself and get a book on basic lighting, you will do exercises in table top work that will teach you the basics of light and shadow. Once you comprehend this important relationship, you can apply the principles to any other type of photography that deals with natural light. It is this thorough understanding that will always serve as the basis. Yes, there is much more than understanding light and shadow such as composition, proper exposure, dof, etc. But your curiosity should always push you forward. With this knowledge you can create professional work with just regular lights, yes even cheap, around the house, bulb holders.
Now, because you are a professional it does not mean that you will always take good pictures. For example, I did heavy advertising work where we use lighting that is mostly flat, with the least shadow.. check out product photography. So, this is a different field. There is also the factor of creativity. I know many pros that may never win a ribbon here. Yet, I know many amateurs that are highly creative. Yes, the professional will be able to finish his assignment way ahead of time but that is their only advantage.
As of Sept of 2003 I went all digital. My first camera was the photomart 725 or something. With it I won 3 awards. It is not the equipment, it is how you use it. My next camera was the Dimage 7 hi, with it I won over 9 awards. Suddenly, I get tired of the digital composite and I joined this site to unlearn all the trash of the over processed image look.
I must say, that the competition here is very steep. Look at the talent in this place from the very founders to the numerous members. The learning curve to produce a quality picture is not as steep as many people make it..it just depends on your attitude.
I can safely say that everytime I entered a challenge, and I do not miss one, even if my entry is sub-par. In other words, I punish myself for not being a step ahead, I am amazed at the highly creative entries from the other members. I give credit where credit is due and if your picture beats mine, I will say it with gusto.
If you study your craft, the only thing the pro has over you is that he will finish the task and effect faster than you...but not necessarily better...and in the arena of ideas the amateur and pro and on an equall footing.
Message edited by author 2004-08-24 16:27:22. |
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08/24/2004 04:20:20 PM · #74 |
Wow... This is the first time I can remember a thought crossing my head about pro vs. am. I've never seen anyone acting like an elitist, any more than each crowd has one or two morons just to round out the bell curve. But overall, this is one of the friendliest sites I've visited. So since you've made me think, here's what came out the other end...
My wife and I took a trip to Niagara on the Lake for our 5th anniversary this year and visited a fairly famous art gallery there. I like to look for photography ideas, so I was perusing the paintings there. After meandering through stacks of mat boards and framed paintings I came across one small photograph which was framed near an entry way. It was a clear sky with a small jet plane and a contrail. Nothing particularly exciting other than that.
I though to myself, "I have at least 30 photographs which are technically and artistically superior to this professional's photo." Don't mistake this for arrogance - I know my place. My point here is that even pros have a spectrum of quality they work within both technically and aestetically, as do amateurs. There's a LOT of overlap in the middle. So while I would like to know for curiosity's sake, or for the sake of credibility of comments, whether someone is pro or not, I still could care less who I'm up against in a challenge.
Anyone using reasonable (inexpensive) equipment can submit competitive (say, top 20) photos. Look through the winner's galleries - it's not an SLR club by any stretch. If someone submits photos against DPC pros and after one year does not improve significantly the fix is not to lower the bar, or buy fancy studio equipment. The fix is to take the time to learn what makes a great photo great.
To sum it up, when I win my first ribbon I'd rather it be against the whole field rather than a less competitive "level" playing field. I don't want my victories to be easier - you rise to the level of those you surround yourself with.
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08/24/2004 04:33:10 PM · #75 |
I guess if peeps want to be divided into pro's/non pro's, pro's with dlsrs, pros with prosumers, ametaeurs with prosumers (you get the idea) then we'd have 10 or more categories (try policing that)
I came here earlier in the year and yes, I was quite intimidated by the skill of many members (I even went away for a while). The best thing I ever did was join and submit a photo and reckon I've improved far more by being here this year than any college course or book could have done.
Yes I have a decent cam now with a couple of decent lenses but hasten to add the better the eqiupment the 'more' you can do rather than the better you can do it.
I used to play squash at a decent standard and always (without fail) played better against somebody in a higher league and played some of my worst games against people in lower leagues (playing county players really gets you going). DPC is great, its like owning a VW Beetle, there is no class, we are all the same so, if you are a pro that doesn't like mixing with amataeurs (or the other way around) it was nice meeting you :)
Only tonight I had a pm from a well known member saying they had seen a great improvement in my pictures since I joined and asked for critique of some of theirs (foolish I know) - that, and that alone makes me feel the few dollars spent joining has been worth it :)
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