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08/24/2004 12:46:55 PM · #26 |
If you jump into these challenges with both feet their is NO way you won't improve. If you are here only to win, then maybe this isn't the website for you. This website is here to teach, and to learn from others.
The photo contests that you win prizes on are the ones you need to be complaining to. This website is here for the training.
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08/24/2004 12:48:35 PM · #27 |
| i'm an new kid to photography but i love facing the best my scores are slooowly rising but every time I lose it just makes me try harder next time, I'm getting better i think. |
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08/24/2004 12:49:58 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Loki:
If you jump into these challenges with both feet their is NO way you won't improve. If you are here only to win, then maybe this isn't the website for you. This website is here to teach, and to learn from others.
The photo contests that you win prizes on are the ones you need to be complaining to. This website is here for the training. |
I think we are all here for different reasons. Some like to learn from the others, some liek to compete, some like to look, some like to simply eneter for fun, others like the community, and some like me like to use it as a reason to go out and shoot a vast array of different subjects.
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08/24/2004 12:51:56 PM · #29 |
| Allowing that there are some professionals on this site (as indicated by previous threads dealing with "what's your occupation), I am thrilled that there is a forum like DPC where "shooters" can mix it up with serious amateurs or pros, and compete on a level playing field. That's what's great about voting on a challenge - having no idea whether a shot was taken by a DrJOnes or a JoeBlow. Look at the challenge winners going back a few months. It's amazing how many members with middle to low end cameras are right in there with the more advanced members using bigger glass or the pros with credentials. I don't see this as a weakness or downside to the site, but to its biggest single attraction (for me). |
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08/24/2004 12:52:51 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by magicshutter:
It's funny how a few people would rather make excuses than a better site. |
This whole debate about 'levels' has been hashed over here several times in the past. I agree that it would be a nice addition to the site. However, there are droves of people who will come forward and complain about the idea. The most common complaint about the idea was that the higher 'level' photographers would not spend any time/effort commenting on the photos from the lower level participants. Those lower level photogrpahers would feel 'left behind' for whatever the reason.
People who depend on comment/critique for their improvement could also stand to spend some time with self critique rather than being dependent on someone else to tell them what is wrong. This is a fundamental concept of 'getting better'. At some point in time, you have to learn what makes a great photo great. When I look at a photo that strikes me as 'great', I have to evaluate 'why' it is great.
At one time, this site was full of good forum information. There were many threads that were useful reading. Today, the forum threads are full of drivel and 'I wanna hear myself talk' threads. The useful threads fall off the main page without much attention these days.
Anyway...
Amateurs vs Pros... i say hogwash. Being a 'professional' doesn't define a good photographer in any way. The highest rated photographers and mos favorite photographers on this site are not professionals. Why haven't the 'pros' found their way to the top? The quality of a photographer's images is directly proportional to that person's passon to excel. The gear in use isn't a big deal either. Having professional grade equipment doesn't make the photographer any better. A camera won't tell you where/how to point it.
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08/24/2004 12:53:10 PM · #31 |
If it's purely for learning, why are there ribbons?
I personally don't care if I am 'beaten'. that only proves that more people relate to the photo, doesn't mean it's better. I would on the other hand like to know if people relate to my work and that is why I entered.
I say biased based on this; you have to at least be registered with the site to vote correct? if I am wrong scratch from here down. If I'm right then the same people vote every time. which means their favorites already have a head-start. It's hard to win the hearts of people when they already have favorites. It boils down to this, I'd like to see levels of challenges, I DO believe the admins are qualified to judge the catagory. |
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08/24/2004 12:53:37 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by magicshutter:
It's funny how a few people would rather make excuses than a better site. |
Hmmm. That seems a bit caustic to me. Maybe if you said "beginner" versus "experienced" it would make more sense.
It is a very difficult "box" to put people in - "pro" vs "amatuer" -
for example: a) Is a person who takes school pictures all day, using a standard flash, distance, backdrop - but makes his or her living as a photographer - a "professional?" b) Is the person who works in a film lab all day printing snapshots a "professional" c) Is a computer science person who has extreme Photoshop skills a "professional?" or d) ME. I have a degree in photograhy, a degree in computer science, have had several solo print exhibits specializing in Nature subjects. I make most of my money in computer-related consulting. "Amatuer" or "professionsl?"
No - I don't think the posters were making excuses - just trying to say it is a fine gray line that would be a nightmare to administer.
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08/24/2004 12:54:44 PM · #33 |
Just my opinion, of course, but I enjoy submitting my dubious quality pics because I WANT to learn. I have no ego where it comes to criticism. In other words-- in order to learn you have to take some (-even a lot) of criticism. It can get tough, sure. Sometimes a criticism hurts a tad, because you thought the pic was pretty darn good.. you end up with a final score of 3.2 and some tough comments. Live with it. But LEARN !!
No, I think having folks of all skill levels grouped together is just wonderful. Makes it interesting, for sure. A complete newbie to photography can learn very quickly here. Study photographers you like.. browse around the site a bunch. It's an awesome grouping of talent.
When you get a criticism that seems a bit too personal (it will happen) shrug it off. Some folks are actually a tad jealous (read: egotistic) and will pick at you "just because", especially if they see you as an up and coming talent. It's rare, but it happens.
But, enough of the negative side. Enjoy the experience and strive to do your very best. Whether you are an amateur or a pro is really irrelevant. I remember back reading the Rants forum where a very seasoned pro got heavy criticism on a challenge pic and bitched about it big time. Oh, well.... we are all submitting from a "blind" level. No one knows who's pic is whose. THAT makes it pretty even when you think about it. Yes, I've seen newbies get the Blue Ribbon. You bet.
ENJOY !! There aren't prizes, you know. If there were the competitions would be much more prone to the pros taking over.
BTW, talent has very little to do with how long you have been behind the lenses, unless, of course, you have no hope for having talent. That happens. Some people will never get it no matter how hard they try. There are very few of those out here. They have a way of eventually understanding this and go away.
My very best advice is this....
1) don't let your feelings get hurt. Even the pros get slammed once and a while. If you have a fragile ego, you will have to work with it a lot.
2) know your camera inside and out. Stretch once and a while. Experiment. Go outside the envelope. The D70 is very versatile !
3) HAVE FUN !! It isn't about winning. It's about doing work that YOU are proud of. If YOU are happy with a shot, don't let the criticisms bring you down. Remember that "most" criticisms are actually attempts to help you "fine tune" what you are doing. This is a GOOD thing.
4) participate ! mix it up a little. Get to know folks out here. You can get amazing levels of help by just asking for it. Not all photography that goes on here is submitted to a challenge.
Best of luck !! (luck DOES play a part !)
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08/24/2004 12:56:28 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by photom:
Originally posted by magicshutter:
It's funny how a few people would rather make excuses than a better site. |
Hmmm. That seems a bit caustic to me. Maybe if you said "beginner" versus "experienced" it would make more sense.
It is a very difficult "box" to put people in - "pro" vs "amatuer" -
for example: a) Is a person who takes school pictures all day, using a standard flash, distance, backdrop - but makes his or her living as a photographer - a "professional?" b) Is the person who works in a film lab all day printing snapshots a "professional" c) Is a computer science person who has extreme Photoshop skills a "professional?" or d) ME. I have a degree in photograhy, a degree in computer science, have had several solo print exhibits specializing in Nature subjects. I make most of my money in computer-related consulting. "Amatuer" or "professionsl?"
No - I don't think the posters were making excuses - just trying to say it is a fine gray line that would be a nightmare to administer. |
I like this, I stand corrected 'beginners vs. experienced' |
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08/24/2004 12:57:28 PM · #35 |
I seemed to do pretty well last year with my Pentax Optio S... in fact, I'm having a hard time beating a lot of those scores. And I hadn't taken any photos before about March last year.
For example:
7.262 Red Ribbon
7.201 Blue Ribbon
7.200 Blue Ribbon
6.846
I would have not been impressed if I had been told I couldn't compete with the 'pros' because I had less experience and worse equipment. In fact, there was a lot of talk about setting this up (mainly from JSetzler) and I resisted this fiercely. Most of the arguments have already been aired in this forum, but for me the main points are that we can all learn from each other and that amateurs with no experience and bad equipment can pull a few surprises. It's not about the equipment, it's about the Photographer!! |
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08/24/2004 12:58:13 PM · #36 |
How many would seriously keep on voting in a amateur-class challenge? I couldn't do it (the high quality stuff makes it worth to go trough 300 photos) and I certainly won't giver higher points.
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08/24/2004 01:00:27 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by magicshutter:
It's funny how a few people would rather make excuses than a better site. |
If this was in response to my post right before it, I wasn't making excuses, I was only pointing out the inherent inconsistency in the generalization you made based on the assumption that professionals always win. Neither one of us has entered a [i]completed[i]challenge yet, Magicshutter, and we've been here less than a month. In those regards we are similar. The main difference I see is that you seem to be judging the site with less than a week's participation in it, while I'm still here despite being singled out in the forum for making what seemed like a useless comment on a picture (Which I worked out with the artist to an amicable conclusion), despite getting briefly involved in the Editing vs Photo Purity conflict (Which I backed out of to lower my blood pressure:), and despite knowing, as you do, that my photography skills may not be up to those of the "professionals" here.
Why am I still here, while you contemplate leaving? I don't know. I enjoy the combining of knowledge here, in a living, flowing manner that can't be matched by a 1-author 'How to' book on photography. I LIKE thinking about going up against Goliath with a little Sony Cybershot, because the winner is not determined by picture quality alone. People have to LIKE the professional's picture as well. A slightly flawed picture with a moving emotional punch may overturn a Perfect picture of something bland.
Feel free to continue your opinion, of course, Magicshutter. I'm just relating my experience here, that is only 2 weeks more experienced than yours.
Message edited by author 2004-08-24 13:03:35.
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08/24/2004 01:00:48 PM · #38 |
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08/24/2004 01:01:36 PM · #39 |
No training, no experience, LOW-low end Sony 3.2 mp point and shoot camera... but I got a red ribbon out of it.
Don't be intimidated by the pros...we amateurs do have a little sense, a little creativity, a little ingenuity, and a lot of guts! ;o)
ps...a little luck now and then doesn't hurt, either!
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08/24/2004 01:02:02 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by computerking:
Originally posted by magicshutter:
It's funny how a few people would rather make excuses than a better site. |
If this was in response to my post right before it, I wasn't making excuses, I was only pointing out the inherent inconsistency in the generalization you made based on the assumption that professionals always win. Neither one of us has entered a challenge yet, Magicshutter, and we've been here less than a month. In those regards we are similar. The main difference I see is that you seem to be judging the site with less than a week's participation in it, while I'm still here despite being singled out in the forum for making what seemed like a useless comment on a picture (Which I worked out with the artist to an amicable conclusion), despite getting briefly involved in the Editing vs Photo Purity conflict (Which I backed out of to lower my blood pressure:), and despite knowing, as you do, that my photography skills may not be up to those of the "professionals" here.
Why am I still here, while you contemplate leaving? I don't know. I enjoy the combining of knowledge here, in a living, flowing manner that can't be matched by a 1-author 'How to' book on photography. I LIKE thinking about going up against Goliath with a little Sony Cybershot, because the winner is not determined by picture quality alone. People have to LIKE the professional's picture as well. A slightly flawed picture with a moving emotional punch may overturn a Perfect picture of something bland.
Feel free to continue your opinion, of course, Magicshutter. I'm just relating my experience here, that is only 2 weeks more experienced than yours. |
Again, I ex the use of the word pro. |
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08/24/2004 01:03:17 PM · #41 |
| True, competing against the professionals can be discouraging, but can also be rewarding and educational. However the equipment can make all the difference in the world. I’m an amateur and my camera is low-end camera, there is only so much I can do with it. And I guess this is what separates man from the boys. |
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08/24/2004 01:05:53 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by magicshutter:
Again, I ex the use of the word pro. |
My apologies, at work my entries take several minutes more than they would at home, you'd posted while I was still typing. Replace Professional with Experienced in my post.
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08/24/2004 01:07:14 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by magicshutter:
I like this, I stand corrected 'beginners vs. experienced' |
But wouldn't it also be terrible for the site if the CURRENT BLUE RIBBON winner was just allowed to compete in the amateur category?
She won on her very first entry - and deserved it without a doubt.
I do see your point, they do have "classes" of competitors in most camera clubs - and it works well. I guess my problem would be "how" to set it up here. Perhaps leave things are they are but add some analysis of the current entries (on a seperate new page), such as:
Examples: a) Highest score(s) for someone with less than 10 challenges (or some number).
(b) Highest score(s) for cameras with les than x.x megapixels.
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08/24/2004 01:07:38 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by madmax69:
True, competing against the professionals can be discouraging, but can also be rewarding and educational. However the equipment can make all the difference in the world. I’m an amateur and my camera is low-end camera, there is only so much I can do with it. And I guess this is what separates man from the boys. |
I don't think equipment has that much to do with it. It's not about what you shoot, what you own, what you like. It's about fairness, and not putting people on a pedistool that hurts them when they fall from it. Not everyone (i love the challenge) wants to be critisized. So I guess I'll submit with this thought. I thought I had a good idea, but a unit cannot stand devided amongst itself. So I suppose it's all or nothing and if I don't want to get my pants beaten off, I won't submit (but you all know I will cuz i love art, and arguing be it by forum or photo :) |
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08/24/2004 01:08:49 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by photom:
Originally posted by magicshutter:
I like this, I stand corrected 'beginners vs. experienced' |
But wouldn't it also be terrible for the site if the CURRENT BLUE RIBBON winner was just allowed to compete in the amateur category?
She won on her very first entry - and deserved it without a doubt.
I do see your point, they do have "classes" of competitors in most camera clubs - and it works well. I guess my problem would be "how" to set it up here. Perhaps leave things are they are but add some analysis of the current entries (on a seperate new page), such as:
Examples: a) Highest score(s) for someone with less than 10 challenges (or some number).
(b) Highest score(s) for cameras with les than x.x megapixels. |
thanks for backing me up, finally another idea guru |
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08/24/2004 01:09:09 PM · #46 |
80% of all my published work and my award winner and prize winning shots have been with a Fuji Finepix 2800z which was 2million pixels.
It makes little difference - you just have to know what to shoot and how to edit.
Equiptment - squipment
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08/24/2004 01:09:59 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by computerking:
Originally posted by magicshutter:
Again, I ex the use of the word pro. |
My apologies, at work my entries take several minutes more than they would at home, you'd posted while I was still typing. Replace Professional with Experienced in my post. |
it's cool, just cuz i disagree doesn't mean i hate ya ;) |
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08/24/2004 01:10:23 PM · #48 |
what's a pro, what's an ameteur? a pro makes money off photgraphy? I don't think there is any difference....it's about talent vs. lack of.
Message edited by author 2004-08-24 13:12:35. |
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08/24/2004 01:12:35 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Gil P:
what's a pro, what's an ameteur? a pro makes money off photgraphy? I don't think there is any difference....it's about talent vs. lack of. |
This is true, to an extent. Doesn't mean someone who just started should have to run against life long artists. |
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08/24/2004 01:14:33 PM · #50 |
| well that's the idea of competition isn't it? the newbies kicking the ass of the vets?? |
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