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10/19/2012 01:41:47 PM · #26
After really giving this considerable thought and owning both, I would say: any will do fine
10/19/2012 01:46:58 PM · #27
Originally posted by Cory:

Your response seals it for me. You are a Mac user...

Oh Snap! :-D
10/19/2012 01:52:26 PM · #28
Originally posted by Cory:

Point and Shoot or DSLR?

Frankly Mac's and PC's have a very different target market. If you want to stretch the limits, get a PC, if you just want to push the button and not worry about settings, go for a Mac.

I don't know Cory, your analogy makes me think you have never used a powerful Mac if one at all? :)

After having built several powerful Windows desktop PCs myself, in 2008 I decided I needed a laptop. I almost went with a Sony as I was intending to use Windows as I had for years. Comparing the high-end Sony to an Apple MacBook Pro I found the price difference was negligible for similar spec and the build quality a little better on the Mac. So I got the Mac and intended to run Windows on it. I thought I might as well try out the Mac OS on the thing since I had it. After a short learning curve getting the hang of the Mac OS I liked it much better than Windows and have been a Mac user ever since.

There are plenty of Mac users doing complex things with lots of computing power (they are more straight forward rather than dumbed down). To me the added complexity of a PC is just all the overhead you need to drag along. I would maybe think of it as you can ask your Mac to take a walk with you and it would be just the two of you. Going for a walk with your PC requires always dragging along its entourage of security guys and the resources they consume.
You can do great things with Macs and PCs and the latter isn't always a huge mess, but it does involve a bit more BS at times and personally I'm happy to do without that stuff.
10/19/2012 02:00:32 PM · #29
I've been a Debian guy for the greater portion of two decades. When it came time for my wife and I to consolidate our computers, I convinced her to try a Mac. It runs OpenBSD in the background, so I can still get all my Linux goodies with a UI she's comfortable with. It comes pre-installed with Python, Ruby, and grabbing XCode is a joke.

Sure I can simply install Cygwin on my Windows machine, but at that rate why not just go Debian instead? At least with the Mac I can still play certain games (Wine really sucks for this), and get an arsenal of powerful tools for free, unlike the Windows world.
10/19/2012 02:03:22 PM · #30
Originally posted by Brent_S:

There are plenty of Mac users doing complex things with lots of computing power ...

I watch a fair number of science documentary shows (NOVA, Nature, etc.) and it seems like about 70-80% of the time the laptops sitting on the scientists' desks are Macs, and unlike the situation with feature films I don't think it can be attributed to a corporate program of "product placement" ...
10/19/2012 02:03:34 PM · #31
Originally posted by Cory:

Frankly Mac's and PC's have a very different target market. If you want to stretch the limits, get a PC, if you just want to push the button and not worry about settings, go for a Mac.


This pretty much sums it up. Windows let's you do whatever you want including trashing your system, if you don't know what you're doing, while Mac puts you in a play pen and never lets you out of their sight.
10/19/2012 02:05:07 PM · #32
Originally posted by Brent_S:

Originally posted by Cory:

Point and Shoot or DSLR?

Frankly Mac's and PC's have a very different target market. If you want to stretch the limits, get a PC, if you just want to push the button and not worry about settings, go for a Mac.

I don't know Cory, your analogy makes me think you have never used a powerful Mac if one at all? :)

After having built several powerful Windows desktop PCs myself, in 2008 I decided I needed a laptop. I almost went with a Sony as I was intending to use Windows as I had for years. Comparing the high-end Sony to an Apple MacBook Pro I found the price difference was negligible for similar spec and the build quality a little better on the Mac. So I got the Mac and intended to run Windows on it. I thought I might as well try out the Mac OS on the thing since I had it. After a short learning curve getting the hang of the Mac OS I liked it much better than Windows and have been a Mac user ever since.

There are plenty of Mac users doing complex things with lots of computing power (they are more straight forward rather than dumbed down). To me the added complexity of a PC is just all the overhead you need to drag along. I would maybe think of it as you can ask your Mac to take a walk with you and it would be just the two of you. Going for a walk with your PC requires always dragging along its entourage of security guys and the resources they consume.
You can do great things with Macs and PCs and the latter isn't always a huge mess, but it does involve a bit more BS at times and personally I'm happy to do without that stuff.


The analogy was meant to be simplified. The truth is PC's need someone who understands computers, since they do allow you to completely screw up anything you'd like (Regedit anyone?)..

Macs do a much better job of making themselves hard to brick, but there is a cost associated.

In my world, Mac isn't even an option, since a significant number of programs are windows only, and cannot be virtualized well.

You are quite incorrect when you say they are more straight forward - perhaps that is true if you want to open a web browser and visit DPC, or write a letter and print it out. But try to connect through a proprietary interface to industrial robotics systems, or join a LDAP group, or... etc. In business (at the level where I work anyway), there is no room for restrictions and safe guards. Those are end-user things.

Fortunately for Apple, most people are end users, and not particularly skilled in the art of computing.

Besides, the Cintique 24HD touch works fine on both, so I see no reason to argue about it for DPC purposes. ;)
10/19/2012 02:08:21 PM · #33
Originally posted by Cory:

In my world, Mac isn't even an option, since a significant number of programs are windows only, and cannot be virtualized well.

Besides, the Cintique 24HD touch works fine on both, so I see no reason to argue about it for DPC purposes. ;)

You can run Windows on an Intel Mac, no virtualization necessary, but you do have to buy a copy of Windows.

For the price, the Cintiq should come with the computer and Photoshop built-in ... ;-)
10/19/2012 02:11:51 PM · #34
Honestly, after thinking about this for a few minutes, it struck me that Apple represents the very worst of American attitudes to me.

Make it easy, so I don't have to understand, protect me from myself, I'd rather be safe than free.

And of course, then there's Apple's corporate policies.

Nah. I just can't ever support them, or buy their products, it's simply not in my ethos.
10/19/2012 02:16:01 PM · #35
Originally posted by Cory:

In my world, Mac isn't even an option, since a significant number of programs are windows only, and cannot be virtualized well.


But you ARE able to run them natively under Boot Camp. There really isn't a software downside in relation to Windows software since a Mac becomes a true Windows machine when you boot to it via Boot Camp. Or am I missing something?
10/19/2012 02:17:05 PM · #36
Originally posted by Cory:

Honestly, after thinking about this for a few minutes, it struck me that Apple represents the very worst of American attitudes to me.

Make it easy, so I don't have to understand, protect me from myself, I'd rather be safe than free.

I disagree with this. Just asked all the developers around me and every last one of them, all 15, have Macs at home. The reason, they don't want to fix shit at home when that's their job at work. They would rather have a computer that just works, but gives them the flexibility to do whatever when they need to.

As a programmer, I will never run Windows because you can't access the source code. When something does go wrong, you have to hope for a quick patch. At least with Mac/Unix, I can fix that shit myself if I really need to in a pinch.

As a consumer, I can never support any software company who represents the worst aspects in the coding industry.

Message edited by author 2012-10-19 14:17:42.
10/19/2012 02:17:49 PM · #37
Originally posted by Paul:

Originally posted by Cory:

In my world, Mac isn't even an option, since a significant number of programs are windows only, and cannot be virtualized well.


But you ARE able to run them natively under Boot Camp. There really isn't a software downside in relation to Windows software since a Mac becomes a true Windows machine when you boot to it via Boot Camp. Or am I missing something?


Price and corporate policies.
10/19/2012 02:19:53 PM · #38
Originally posted by Cory:

In my world, Mac isn't even an option, since a significant number of programs are windows only, and cannot be virtualized well.



As I said below, the best Windows system I've used is my MacBook. I boot directly to Windows for those programs that need it like some of my machine programming and radio telemetry software that really don't play nice with virtual machines. I can just as easily boot to OSX or Ubuntu and getting to the Open BSD Unix core is cake. I've also run Windows versions of LabView, MatLab and even Autodesk Inventor without a hitch.
10/19/2012 02:20:44 PM · #39
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Cory:

Honestly, after thinking about this for a few minutes, it struck me that Apple represents the very worst of American attitudes to me.

Make it easy, so I don't have to understand, protect me from myself, I'd rather be safe than free.

I disagree with this. Just asked all the developers around me and every last one of them, all 15, have Macs at home. The reason, they don't want to fix shit at home when that's their job at work. They would rather have a computer that just works, but gives them the flexibility to do whatever when they need to.

As a programmer, I will never run Windows because you can't access the source code. When something does go wrong, you have to hope for a quick patch. At least with Mac/Unix, I can fix that shit myself if I really need to in a pinch.

As a consumer, I can never support any software company who represents the worst aspects in the coding industry.


It's laziness, and they're proud of it. You see, I am right. Last time I checked Apple hadn't opened up the majority of their code. As a matter of a fact, a family member had quite a fight with them about simply opening the iPhone to certify it's battery.

It's kinda amazing that every business in the US doesn't run exclusively Mac if the savings and trouble-free operation really are true, don't you think?

10/19/2012 02:24:10 PM · #40
Originally posted by Cory:


It's kinda amazing that every business in the US doesn't run exclusively Mac if the savings and trouble-free operation really are true, don't you think?


Most businesses have economic myopia.
10/19/2012 02:25:12 PM · #41
Left or Right, Canon or Nikon, PC or Mac: Bollocks.

10/19/2012 02:25:44 PM · #42
Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by Cory:


It's kinda amazing that every business in the US doesn't run exclusively Mac if the savings and trouble-free operation really are true, don't you think?


Most businesses have economic myopia.


If you can write a proper proposal around that, which convincingly proves your point, I'm sure you could easily quadruple your income next year.
10/19/2012 02:27:58 PM · #43
Originally posted by Cory:

It's kinda amazing that every business in the US doesn't run exclusively Mac if the savings and trouble-free operation really are true, don't you think?

Not really.
If you see how corporate decisions are made, logic and sanity are rarely two criteria used.
10/19/2012 02:28:34 PM · #44
Originally posted by jagar:

Left or Right, Canon or Nikon, PC or Mac: Bollocks.


There are differences. Your left/right choice is particularly poor (read Right Hand, Left Hand by Chris McManus)

As for PC/MAC and Canon/Nikon(et al), you're not exactly right, but not exactly wrong. There are differences, and they can be significant, but the real differences are quite tiny when viewed in holistic terms.
10/19/2012 02:29:12 PM · #45
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Cory:

It's kinda amazing that every business in the US doesn't run exclusively Mac if the savings and trouble-free operation really are true, don't you think?

Not really.
If you see how corporate decisions are made, logic and sanity are rarely two criteria used.


That's true, but $$ is a very shiny and simple thing that drives that illogical insanity.
10/19/2012 02:30:24 PM · #46
Originally posted by Cory:

If you can write a proper proposal around that, which convincingly proves your point, I'm sure you could easily quadruple your income next year.

Doesn't work that way. The banks policy is we have to pay for licensing on everything. I am not allowed to grab anything under the GPL. We need to be able to hold some other entity accountable if something f*cks up. Will it ever hold up in court, not a chance in hell, but that's the reason given.

So we're allowed to write our own code, but can't grab anything under the GPL. You see the logic there? I don't.

edit - Even here, with bright people working above me, you hear the common mantra that if anyone can see the code, how can it be safe? But that's the logic I use to prove it is safe. Anyone can patch the holes in the code. More eyes leads to fewer mistakes.

Message edited by author 2012-10-19 14:34:05.
10/19/2012 02:32:55 PM · #47
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by Cory:


It's kinda amazing that every business in the US doesn't run exclusively Mac if the savings and trouble-free operation really are true, don't you think?


Most businesses have economic myopia.


If you can write a proper proposal around that, which convincingly proves your point, I'm sure you could easily quadruple your income next year.


Why would I want to beat my head into that brick wall anymore? I've made, along with others, a number of proposals that show long term benefits to making a higher up front investment to get higher quality capital equipment and nearly every time management goes with the lowest initial cost option and winds up paying out the ass for it over the lifetime of the equipment due to shoddy performance, support and service.
10/19/2012 02:34:28 PM · #48
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Cory:

If you can write a proper proposal around that, which convincingly proves your point, I'm sure you could easily quadruple your income next year.

Doesn't work that way. The banks policy is we have to pay for licensing on everything. I am not allowed to grab anything under the GPL. We need to be able to hold some other entity accountable if something f*cks up. Will it ever hold up in court, not a chance in hell, but that's the reason given.

We're allowed to write our own code, but can't grab anything under the GPL. You see the logic there? I don't.


Again, this decision would be driven by $$, as the cost of litigation is far higher than the cost of licenses that allow them to pass the buck.

I don't know, the courts do tend to view many things in terms of monetary or other considerations - and unless $$ has exchanged hands, then they don't seem to view the contractual obligations the same way.

In terms of the law and courts, it's important to remember this is just a game, played by silly rules that often don't make any sense.
10/19/2012 02:34:46 PM · #49
it's all a plot to set us at each other's throats.
10/19/2012 02:35:54 PM · #50
Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by Cory:


It's kinda amazing that every business in the US doesn't run exclusively Mac if the savings and trouble-free operation really are true, don't you think?


Most businesses have economic myopia.


If you can write a proper proposal around that, which convincingly proves your point, I'm sure you could easily quadruple your income next year.


Why would I want to beat my head into that brick wall anymore? I've made, along with others, a number of proposals that show long term benefits to making a higher up front investment to get higher quality capital equipment and nearly every time management goes with the lowest initial cost option and winds up paying out the ass for it over the lifetime of the equipment due to shoddy performance, support and service.


I suppose I should fess up a bit. I make a living because shit never works right. I make a good living because of that. I honestly hope shit NEVER works right, cause I'll have to go back to farming or construction.
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