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09/17/2012 05:13:14 PM · #1
Originally posted by Ammie:

Originally posted by Simms:

We've seen this before and no doubt we will see it again and again. The thing is, no one looks at you like a cheat - we all know it happens and we understand it must really `hurt`. I think the SC need to stick to this rule and fully understand why the rule is a blanket one.

Saying that, I really hope you manage to retrieve the original image and hopefully find a better way (more DPC friendly) in future to copy your files across to your computer.

Don't know about the in future. I feel cheated and robbed. I'm not even going to try and find the original because I feel I already submitted it.


I understand completely, and felt the same way when it happened to me. I figured I was safe opening the file in photoshop elements and then doing a save as. But it changed my file. At the time, it was a photo that far surpassed anything I had taken, and I was so incredibly proud of it. It wasn't my fault, and the SC should understand that.

But the problem is, that there's no way they can tell whether the file was modified in other ways. They know I don't cheat. They know you don't cheat. But it's too difficult to ask the SC to make a judgement call on each photo that shows signs of being modified in some way. The only way to be fair is to have everyone play by the same rules. It doesn't feel fair, but just because we didn't realize that our software changes the original, doesn't really change anything -- the original was still modified.

Give it some time. I wanted to quit immediately when it happened, but after a couple of days I realized that the rule is a good one, even though I got stung by it. It happened once, and now I know better.

(by the way, I started shooting RAW simply because I didn't want to keep making a backup copy of my jpeg files. I thought it was a ridiculous waste of space having another copy, and I hated RAW. Now I realize just how powerful it is. It actually was a good side affect of the DQ -- but I certainly didn't realize it at the time. :)

Message edited by author 2012-09-17 17:16:34.
09/17/2012 05:01:39 PM · #2
Amanda, I'm looking at your profile and EVERY one of the images I see on your top-scores line is a horizontal shot, so I think it's very likely you've never had a "rotated" shot validated, and therefore this is the first time you've encountered this quirk with the Windows Picture Viewer. You've gotten very helpful advice here, please don't just throw in the towel. There are many ways to recover the original from a card, even if it's ostensibly no longer on there.
09/17/2012 04:42:42 PM · #3
Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by Ammie:


Don't know about the in future. I feel cheated and robbed. I'm not even going to try and find the original because I feel I already submitted it.


Really? I mean seriously? Believe me, I feel your pain, but you just have to chalk this up to learning; it's no use to blame others. Per the rules, the original you submit must be an unmodified file from your camera. The one you submitted was not. End of story, unless you put in the effort to recover the file from your card. You were previously told this is probably possible unless it's been over-written. If you choose not to, that's your prerogative.


Aimee - your current stance is really quite surprising. There are quite a few of us who have spent a good amount of time today trying to help you out in getting the original unedited images to SC for validation. As I said in a PM earlier, check your cards and see if the files are still there. If they are there, you can upload them directly into an email without even moving them to your computer. If you overwrote them, come back to us and we can try to give you recommendations of software to get the files back.There are ways to get the UNMODIFIED files. It is up to you to submit them. We have given ideas and recommendations on how to proceed, but you seem to be sticking your feet in.

The rules around unmodified files are very clear and have been this way since the start of the site.

Message edited by author 2012-09-17 16:47:02.
09/17/2012 04:41:12 PM · #4
You've still got your Sherpet awards.. ;)
09/17/2012 04:34:26 PM · #5
Originally posted by Ammie:


Don't know about the in future. I feel cheated and robbed. I'm not even going to try and find the original because I feel I already submitted it.


Really? I mean seriously? Believe me, I feel your pain, but you just have to chalk this up to learning; it's no use to blame others. Per the rules, the original you submit must be an unmodified file from your camera. The one you submitted was not. End of story, unless you put in the effort to recover the file from your card. You were previously told this is probably possible unless it's been over-written. If you choose not to, that's your prerogative.
09/17/2012 04:33:03 PM · #6
Originally posted by Ammie:

I feel cheated and robbed. I'm not even going to try and find the original because I feel I already submitted it.


its a good things we dont actually win real prizes...
09/17/2012 04:28:19 PM · #7
Originally posted by Ammie:

Originally posted by Simms:

We've seen this before and no doubt we will see it again and again. The thing is, no one looks at you like a cheat - we all know it happens and we understand it must really `hurt`. I think the SC need to stick to this rule and fully understand why the rule is a blanket one.

Saying that, I really hope you manage to retrieve the original image and hopefully find a better way (more DPC friendly) in future to copy your files across to your computer.

Don't know about the in future. I feel cheated and robbed. I'm not even going to try and find the original because I feel I already submitted it.


Seriously, don't feel the Site Council are being vindictive here, its a blanket rule that applies to all - it sucks bug time I agree (the situation). At the end of the day its only a virtual ribbon, you know you had a ribbon winning shot and through one of those quirky rules its been denied.
09/17/2012 04:23:21 PM · #8
Originally posted by Simms:

We've seen this before and no doubt we will see it again and again. The thing is, no one looks at you like a cheat - we all know it happens and we understand it must really `hurt`. I think the SC need to stick to this rule and fully understand why the rule is a blanket one.

Saying that, I really hope you manage to retrieve the original image and hopefully find a better way (more DPC friendly) in future to copy your files across to your computer.

Don't know about the in future. I feel cheated and robbed. I'm not even going to try and find the original because I feel I already submitted it.
09/17/2012 03:36:44 PM · #9
We've seen this before and no doubt we will see it again and again. The thing is, no one looks at you like a cheat - we all know it happens and we understand it must really `hurt`. I think the SC need to stick to this rule and fully understand why the rule is a blanket one.

Saying that, I really hope you manage to retrieve the original image and hopefully find a better way (more DPC friendly) in future to copy your files across to your computer.
09/17/2012 02:31:39 PM · #10
I'm so sorry, Ammie. The photo is truly an award winning shot. I am really surprised you haven't already read all the warnings and agonies over lost ribbons due to transfer and viewing software. It stinks that you had to learn this lesson the hard way.

Message edited by author 2012-09-17 14:32:24.
09/17/2012 02:28:14 PM · #11
I don't think so.
09/17/2012 02:25:17 PM · #12
Originally posted by Ammie:

Originally posted by RyanWareham:

in the future you could always shoot in raw + jpeg. that way you can do whatever you want to the jpeg in rotation/viewing/etc and you have the untouched raw file. then copy that to the computer to do your work in.
it sucks losing the ribbon, but this is not the first time this has come up. i have yet to receive a ribbon and still i learned how to avoid this from seeing threads of this nature.
I do not mean to offend (but that usually means i'm about to), but you've been here long enough that this sort of thing shouldn't be that big of a surprise.
I feel bad that you lost the ribbon, but if you seriously think your image has a chance of ribboning, you should know what to expect from the SC in requesting an original and make sure that you have a valid copy in the event that you do ribbon.


That is just my point. I had many entries validated. I don't understand why this one gets DQ'd.

Ammie - Do you still have the photos on the original card? If so, you can still fix this.

09/17/2012 02:24:20 PM · #13
Originally posted by RyanWareham:

in the future you could always shoot in raw + jpeg. that way you can do whatever you want to the jpeg in rotation/viewing/etc and you have the untouched raw file. then copy that to the computer to do your work in.
it sucks losing the ribbon, but this is not the first time this has come up. i have yet to receive a ribbon and still i learned how to avoid this from seeing threads of this nature.
I do not mean to offend (but that usually means i'm about to), but you've been here long enough that this sort of thing shouldn't be that big of a surprise.
I feel bad that you lost the ribbon, but if you seriously think your image has a chance of ribboning, you should know what to expect from the SC in requesting an original and make sure that you have a valid copy in the event that you do ribbon.


That is just my point. I had many entries validated. I don't understand why this one gets DQ'd.
09/17/2012 02:19:04 PM · #14
in the future you could always shoot in raw + jpeg. that way you can do whatever you want to the jpeg in rotation/viewing/etc and you have the untouched raw file. then copy that to the computer to do your work in.
it sucks losing the ribbon, but this is not the first time this has come up. i have yet to receive a ribbon and still i learned how to avoid this from seeing threads of this nature.
I do not mean to offend (but that usually means i'm about to), but you've been here long enough that this sort of thing shouldn't be that big of a surprise.
I feel bad that you lost the ribbon, but if you seriously think your image has a chance of ribboning, you should know what to expect from the SC in requesting an original and make sure that you have a valid copy in the event that you do ribbon.
09/17/2012 02:09:51 PM · #15
Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by Ammie:

I'm speechless! you going to DQ my Buddy entry as well? I did nothing differently when I submitted that one. Why would Windows Photo Viewer alter one and not the other?


Sometimes a simple thing like an image rotation in the viewer can result in changes to the file. It's unfortunate, but true.
Try getting the original off the memory card. Even if you erased or reformatted the card, and even if other images were written to it, you may be able to recover the image.

FWIW, best practice if you must shoot JPEG is to use the operating system's drag & drop functionality to copy the files. Any files that you will use for DPC entries should be treated with special care. Make a copy and put it a place where it will not get modified.
A better path is to shoot RAW. These files are much more robust originals than JPEGS. I do realize that not everyone needs or wants to shoot RAW, but there you go.


This happened to me when I was fairly new here. I didn't realize rotating the image in iPhoto to view it from a different perspective would alter the image. When I got the message from SC that it wasn't valid, I had already deleted it off my memory card. I ended up buying a data recovery program and thankfully I was able to retrieve it. If you already deleted it, maybe SC will allow you some extra time to try and recover the original. Also, you should look to see if you need to recover your original for My Buddy and Me just in case that original isn't valid, too.

After that happened to me, I changed my workflow to back up the original on a separate hard drive and I now rotate my memory cards so the card with the original file isn't erased until I'm sure I no longer need a second back up of the original.

I hope you can get it worked out.
09/17/2012 02:03:02 PM · #16
I've seen this problem come up multiple times over the years. I'd ditch Windows photo viewer and download irfanview. It's free

//www.irfanview.com/
09/17/2012 01:47:59 PM · #17
Originally posted by kirbic:

Try getting the original off the memory card. Even if you erased or reformatted the card, and even if other images were written to it, you may be able to recover the image.

FWIW, best practice if you must shoot JPEG is to use the operating system's drag & drop functionality to copy the files. Any files that you will use for DPC entries should be treated with special care. Make a copy and put it a place where it will not get modified.

Since I can only shoot JPEG, I not only drag-and-drop* the files to my hard drive, I do not erase them from the memory card until I've burned a backup to an optical (CD/DVD) disc those will always remain unaltered.

*Card readers are available for $5-10 ... does not require you to hook up your camera to the computer.

Message edited by author 2012-09-17 13:49:41.
09/17/2012 01:35:27 PM · #18
Originally posted by Ammie:

I'm speechless! you going to DQ my Buddy entry as well? I did nothing differently when I submitted that one. Why would Windows Photo Viewer alter one and not the other?


Sometimes a simple thing like an image rotation in the viewer can result in changes to the file. It's unfortunate, but true.
Try getting the original off the memory card. Even if you erased or reformatted the card, and even if other images were written to it, you may be able to recover the image.

FWIW, best practice if you must shoot JPEG is to use the operating system's drag & drop functionality to copy the files. Any files that you will use for DPC entries should be treated with special care. Make a copy and put it a place where it will not get modified.
A better path is to shoot RAW. These files are much more robust originals than JPEGS. I do realize that not everyone needs or wants to shoot RAW, but there you go.
09/17/2012 01:29:13 PM · #19
siding with SC on this one, you need to maintain an unaltered original. We all need to do it, if your workflow modifies the original, even if its unintentional, you need to change your workflow.

They cant verify you didn't alter the dates or something else.

09/17/2012 01:25:01 PM · #20
Originally posted by GeneralE:

The request to re-submit a valid original was sent on the morning of 9/12: (emphasis added)

Originally posted by Manic:

(Sep 12 08:45): Proof requested: Please upload your original image AS IT CAME FROM THE CAMERA (in NEF/JPEG format) and NOT a version that has been altered by Windows Photo Viewer.


I'm speechless! you going to DQ my Buddy entry as well? I did nothing differently when I submitted that one. Why would Windows Photo Viewer alter one and not the other?
09/17/2012 01:00:16 PM · #21
The request to re-submit a valid original was sent on the morning of 9/12: (emphasis added)

Originally posted by Manic:

(Sep 12 08:45): Proof requested: Please upload your original image AS IT CAME FROM THE CAMERA (in NEF/JPEG format) and NOT a version that has been altered by Windows Photo Viewer.

09/17/2012 10:44:38 AM · #22
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Aimee, you need to be communicating directly with SC on this, via the "contact us" link in the upper right corner of this screen. Talking to us about the situation is not going to help one bit; you need to hear directly from them what's going on. If there's been an error, they will fix it.

I did and am waiting to hear from them.
09/17/2012 10:25:16 AM · #23
Aimee, you need to be communicating directly with SC on this, via the "contact us" link in the upper right corner of this screen. Talking to us about the situation is not going to help one bit; you need to hear directly from them what's going on. If there's been an error, they will fix it.
09/17/2012 10:23:54 AM · #24
Originally posted by Ammie:


This was not the case. The entry was valid. And I did submit the original and it was received.


Actually, what I said was that perhaps the *original* file that you submitted was not valid. As others have posted, if the SC found that the *original* (not the entry) was not a valid original, you should have received communication re-requesting an original.
09/17/2012 10:15:20 AM · #25
Originally posted by Ammie:

Originally posted by bassbone:

Originally posted by Ammie:

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by Ammie:

This is absolutely ridiculous. I submitted the original immediately and received confirmation thereof. How on earth can you disqualify me? This is not fair!!


I suspect that your original file was not valid, and that you may have missed requests to re-submit an original file. Remember, the original must be as it came from the camera. Even some image-transfer software can mess with the data in the file, rendering it unusable as an original.

This was not the case. The entry was valid. And I did submit the original and it was received.

Aimee - did you get an email stating that your entry was validated? Or one that says that it was received?

I would look in your junk email folder to see if Site Council sent you any email requesting an unaltered original. I have on a couple occasions received messages from SC where they mistakenly got sent to my junk folder due to filters I have on my inbox.

The only email I received was of my DQ. I got notification to upload the file which I did and notification that it was recvd date and time!

If SC found the original you sent was not valid, you should have received another email (again check the junk mail folder) asking to send an unaltered original.
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