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08/18/2004 09:19:55 PM · #1
I'm judging the "Neon" challenge. I'm finding myself voting many more 3's and 4's than I thought I would. i thinkI even voted one 1, though I might change it. In another post I used a vote framework made by colda to sum up my process when I vote. Here it is (Kudos to colda for the framework):

A. Does the pic meet the challenge description? (determines my starting point)
3 - not at all
5 - in a way, yes

B. Is it a technically good image?
-2 - no, bad quality
-1 - some issues with the image
0 - No issues, standard quality pic
+1 - good quality pic
+2 - technically perfect (IMO)

C. Creativity/originality (Note: after the first dozen at level 1, a pic topic moves down a notch periodically, depending on how many I'm forced to look at. Level 2 doesn't change, because those tend to be REALLY original)
-1 - Oh, God, Not another bug/flower/staircase/etc
0 - nothing new
1 - interesting interpretation
2 - very creative and original

D. Wow factor
0 - regular pic
+1 - Ohhhh, that's good
+2 - Oh wow, I love it!

E. Personal Touch (ie Does it speak to ME?)
-1 - Eww, something about it irks me
0 - Eh.
+1 - Cool. I feel your pain.

OK. For most of those low-scoring pics, This is what happens (I'll include a range for some criteria):

A. Does the pic meet the challenge description? (determines my starting point)
5 - in a way, yes

B. Is it a technically good image?
-2 - no, bad quality
-1 - some issues with the image
0 - No issues, standard quality pic


C. Creativity/originality (Note: after the first dozen at level 1, a pic topic moves down a notch periodically, depending on how many I'm forced to look at. Level 2 doesn't change, because those tend to be REALLY original)
-1 - Oh, God, Not another bug/flower/staircase/etc
0 - nothing new


D. Wow factor
0 - regular pic

E. Personal Touch (ie Does it speak to ME?)
0 - Eh.


See my problem? If I run into a pic that's just some plain old neon sign, that's out of focus and grainy, and has no appeal to me visually or emotionally, I'm voting betwen 5 and 2. Although a few neon sign pics have gotten higher, many of them fall in this range. Am I being too harsh? Is anyone else having this situation?

Message edited by author 2004-08-18 21:23:27.
08/18/2004 09:42:47 PM · #2
I almost voted, but didn't see any pictures that jumped out at me at all this time around. So I think the answer to your question would, at least at first glance, be 'no - you aren't'
08/18/2004 09:50:22 PM · #3
I've gone through about half, and it's been hard to judge the sign pics, after a bit they all seem to blend and I start to vote them down. So I've decided to vote in small spurts to refresh my mind and be fair.

For the most part though Im giving 5's for a sign pic that is average. Only a couple of sign pics have jumped out at me so far , but I have about 140 more to vote on
08/18/2004 09:57:46 PM · #4
Hmm, I just came across the ONLY 10 I've ever voted. I know,Big deal, I've only voted on 3 challenges. But this one scored a 12 on my system. I guess 10 will do, but now I know that Neon need not be Blah. My 3's and 4's stand as-is.
08/18/2004 11:19:39 PM · #5
Why don't you temper your strict voting method with some useful comments? Judging by the two you have left for me so far, you aren't putting as much thought as your system suggests. I can't mention the comment you left on my Neon entry as that would reveal my entry but the comment you left on my Vanishing Point entry was, 'needs more cropping at the bottom'. I admit, that one at least indicated some kind of suggestion, but in a very terse, careless manner. The one you left on my Neon entry was simply a sarcastic question about the content. Not too helpful, especially since you haven't put your money where your mouth is and entered a challenge yet. This isn't to say someone who doesn't have a portfolio doesn't have something worthwhile to offer but I would suggest more thought-out comments if you want to be taken seriously.

BTW, my entry wasn't a sign and it got one comment of 'this is incredible...' from a respected photographer on this site....so there are at least some entries worth looking at in this challenge. I myself have given out plenty of 6's and one 7 so far and I think I've made it clear in the past that I'm a fairly picky voter.

Message edited by author 2004-08-18 23:23:30.
08/18/2004 11:23:17 PM · #6

08/18/2004 11:25:52 PM · #7
Originally posted by melismatica:

Why don't you temper your strict voting useful comments. Judging by the two you have left for me so far, you aren't putting as much thought as your system suggests. I can't mention the comment you left on my Neon entry as that would reveal my entry but the comment you left on my Vanishing Point entry was, 'needs more cropping at the bottom'. I admit, that one at least indicated some kind of suggestion, but in a very terse, careless manner. The one you left on my Neon entry was simply a sarcastic question about the content. Not too helpful, especially since you haven't put your money where your mouth is and entered a challenge yet. This isn't to say someone who doesn't have a portfolio doesn't have something worthwhile to offer but I would suggest more thought-out comments if you want to be taken seriously.


Ya know, perhaps it is unintentional, but you have a very abrassive way of expressing your point. I haven't been able to figure you out in this respect yet. I think you are a very deligent commentator & I have looked thru some of the comments you have left both in the helpful & general areas. You have also left comments on a few of my own shots that, honestly, really put me off. I admit that my reaction is subjective & I am willing to take the criticism as I hope it is intended. But now with this response, it seems a bit hypocrital to me.
If others (read- me) are willing to give you the benefit of doubt than why can you not extend the same for others (read, computerking)?

08/18/2004 11:53:21 PM · #8
Your average vote is 5.8, so I, nor most others, can't really call you harsh.
08/19/2004 12:00:10 AM · #9
Originally posted by Rooster:

Originally posted by melismatica:

Why don't you temper your strict voting useful comments. Judging by the two you have left for me so far, you aren't putting as much thought as your system suggests. I can't mention the comment you left on my Neon entry as that would reveal my entry but the comment you left on my Vanishing Point entry was, 'needs more cropping at the bottom'. I admit, that one at least indicated some kind of suggestion, but in a very terse, careless manner. The one you left on my Neon entry was simply a sarcastic question about the content. Not too helpful, especially since you haven't put your money where your mouth is and entered a challenge yet. This isn't to say someone who doesn't have a portfolio doesn't have something worthwhile to offer but I would suggest more thought-out comments if you want to be taken seriously.


Ya know, perhaps it is unintentional, but you have a very abrassive way of expressing your point. I haven't been able to figure you out in this respect yet. I think you are a very deligent commentator & I have looked thru some of the comments you have left both in the helpful & general areas. You have also left comments on a few of my own shots that, honestly, really put me off. I admit that my reaction is subjective & I am willing to take the criticism as I hope it is intended. But now with this response, it seems a bit hypocrital to me.
If others (read- me) are willing to give you the benefit of doubt than why can you not extend the same for others (read, computerking)?


I'm aware I can be blunt with my criticism by not always remembering to temper them with something positive. However, if you could read the comment computerking left on my Neon entry, you would know why I feel aggravated at his rather long-winded explanation of his voting process. I can't offer the comment without revealing my entry, but believe me, it is a totally pointless and sarcastic remark in the form of a question that doesn't comment on the image in any way that could possibly be considered useful. I'm sorry if I have rubbed you the wrong way in the past but it is never from the intention of being sarcastic or hurtful. Not everyone has a smooth, friendly style but even an abrasive critic that is offering real commentary and not just smart-ass remarks can be considered useful.


Message edited by author 2004-08-19 00:00:37.
08/19/2004 12:01:47 AM · #10
While it is true that a constructive comment is more desirable, the negative comment is also instructive. You know, you keep a pro and con evaluation.

The idea is simply to distil the meaning. I treat all negative comments in one lump. I do not even bother to decypher the psychological message these people are trying to convey. It has nothing to do with me. I have received personal attacks on my models..I mean just what do you do you do with this information. I can tell the model to slash her wrist or maybe I should slash my wrist for being so blind.

No, it is best to accept the negative ill-willed comment simply as a negative comment which gets filed with cons...but do not give weight because there is nothing redeeming in their meaning. There is no formula in them for improving your craft...they are making references to non related issues.

However, I welcome all comments, even the rude ones. It tells me people are looking.
08/19/2004 12:05:33 AM · #11
Originally posted by graphicfunk:

While it is true that a constructive comment is more desirable, the negative comment is also instructive. You know, you keep a pro and con evaluation.

The idea is simply to distil the meaning. I treat all negative comments in one lump. I do not even bother to decypher the psychological message these people are trying to convey. It has nothing to do with me. I have received personal attacks on my models..I mean just what do you do you do with this information. I can tell the model to slash her wrist or maybe I should slash my wrist for being so blind.

No, it is best to accept the negative ill-willed comment simply as a negative comment which gets filed with cons...but do not give weight because there is nothing redeeming in their meaning. There is no formula in them for improving your craft...they are making references to non related issues.

However, I welcome all comments, even the rude ones. It tells me people are looking.


I agree with this. I am not one to complain about negative comments, even terse ones. But I think we all have had the aggravating experience of receiving a comment that offers nothing in the way of criticism. A memorable one for me is the comment that read simply, "Boba Fet" on my Trains, Planes, and Automobiles entry. The comment I received on my Neon entry is very similar in style, if not in content.
08/19/2004 12:20:05 AM · #12
OK, Not knowing which photo was yours, Melismatica, I can't explain my comment. I tend to vote straight through from #1 to #999 in one big batch, so it can all blur on me. I try my best not to be sarcastic, and sometimes I ask questions. When I do, I try to impress the fact that hey, maybe I'm missing the point. Sometimes, when I either can't figure out what I don't like about a pic, or even when I DID like a pic and have little to say within my small knowledge of photography, I make a joke. When this is all over, I'll look up your pic again, and try to give you an explanation. I don't intend to be mean. And if my comment was akin to "Boba Fett", perhaps your photo unintentionally reminded me of something I wanted to share.

Once again, I'll send you a message when I can explain. I am, if anything, a reasonable, mature person, who can admit to mistakes, and explain his actions. How I got to be this way is beyond me, I never wanted to grow up...
08/19/2004 12:22:20 AM · #13
That's a reasonable response. I will send you a PM with the the title of my entry and the comment and why I felt it was unhelpful. I appreciate the gracious response. No hard feelings.
08/19/2004 12:24:12 AM · #14
Oh, and as for the 'long-windedness' of the original post, I wanted to explain fully what I had worked out. I apologize if it was too long. I used a format from another post, and I didn't feel comfortable altering colda's format more than was necessary.
08/19/2004 12:30:34 AM · #15
Ok, I'm going out on a limb here. I'm not one to post much in the forums and make waves, I tend to keep my thoughts to myself. This time I can't.

First of all - Computerking, that was quite a post you started and it's obvious to me you put a lot of thought into voting - that's honorable. I looked through your past comments after reading this thread and quite frankly I really like your style. I don't think there is anything negative to be said about how you comment. To answer your original question: I don't think giving out low scores in one particular challenge would make you 'too harsh'... some challenges just have entries that aren't as good as others.

Melismatica - You are one of those people that only mark comments helpful if it was a nice comment, and the ones that have any bit of criticism, constructive or otherwise, are not marked as helpful. I saw some comments on your images where it was quite obvious the person took some time to really tell you what they thought could be improved and you didn't find that helpful, but something like 'this is nice' was helpful. You've even critiqued (dare I say ripped apart) a critique club member that spent some time considering your photo and offering suggestions for improvement, AS A FAVOR!

I think it might be high time for you to get over yourself and if you put your pictures out to be judged, expect them to be judged.
08/19/2004 12:31:56 AM · #16
Originally posted by computerking:

Oh, and as for the 'long-windedness' of the original post, I wanted to explain fully what I had worked out. I apologize if it was too long. I used a format from another post, and I didn't feel comfortable altering colda's format more than was necessary.


Sorry, my bad. I was aggravated and it seemed ironic to me in light of the comments you've left for me. I sent the PM explaining my attitude. I move to let bygones be bygones.

Message edited by author 2004-08-19 00:32:23.
08/19/2004 12:33:53 AM · #17
Originally posted by melismatica:

Sorry, my bad. I was aggravated and it seemed ironic to me in light of the comments you've left for me. I sent the PM explaining my attitude. I move to let bygones be bygones.


Not a problem. Bygones it is. Haven't gotten the email yet (Yahoo=slow). Expect my answer once I do.
08/19/2004 12:42:46 AM · #18
Originally posted by tfaust:



Melismatica - You are one of those people that only mark comments helpful if it was a nice comment, and the ones that have any bit of criticism, constructive or otherwise, are not marked as helpful. I saw some comments on your images where it was quite obvious the person took some time to really tell you what they thought could be improved and you didn't find that helpful, but something like 'this is nice' was helpful. You've even critiqued (dare I say ripped apart) a critique club member that spent some time considering your photo and offering suggestions for improvement, AS A FAVOR!

I think it might be high time for you to get over yourself and if you put your pictures out to be judged, expect them to be judged.


It is simply not true that I only mark positive comments as helpful, so I don't even know how to respond to that. As for the Critique Club critique, I have a right to make comments on my own image. I felt that the critiques in question were made with some rather condescending assumptions that I needed to rebut, for my own peace of mind. That could be taken as childish but it is my image and the space is provided for me to leave comments. Since I have to see those critiques (which annoyed me quite a bit) every time I look at the images, leaving my own comments in response relieved some of the tension I felt over the critiques (which were from the same person, BTW).

I've already attempted to make some peace with computerking and I certainly don't intend to get in a battle over how I check the 'comments' box.
08/19/2004 12:52:30 AM · #19
I thought it was just me. If I see one more beer sign I think I will gag. The challenge was neon, not neon sign. I voted mostly 5 and under. I found very few outstanding photos and almost all of those were not neon signs.
08/19/2004 01:12:35 AM · #20
Sometimes I get comments that suggest that I should dramatically alter my shot - like there are times when I use a shallow DOF because that's how I wanted the image to look and someone will say it needs to have a deeper DOF. Those irk me to some degree because if I'd wanted a deeper DOF in a particular shot, then I would have adjusted my camera accordingly and the image would have been different. But at the same time, I don't let such comments upset me too much because it's just one person's opinion and if I weren't looking for opinions then I wouldn't post my images here for all to see. I enjoy getting the nice comments just as much as everyone else does. I also enjoy getting a really good critique because well thought-out criticism helps me become a better photographer. That is the point, right? I'm tired so I'm probably rambling but hopefully this makes sense.

By the way, I really appreciate your attitude GraphicFunk. You ad a refreshing viewpoint to these forums.
08/19/2004 01:13:19 AM · #21
I feel exactly the same in regards to this challenge; I am giving out many more low ratings than normal. I try to judge images half by how well it fits in with the challenge topic, and the other half on the quality of the image itself (it's usually around a 50-50 or 40-60 weight ratio). I think it's okay, though. This challenge just happened to yield a large number of similar or mediocre submissions; as long as you're voting honestly, that's the best you can do. And count on three very impressive winners in the end.
08/19/2004 01:16:06 AM · #22
I'm almost afraid to vote because of all the signs. Mine's one of those that's "different" and well, it went from a 5.5 to a 4.5 overnight! *sighs*
08/19/2004 01:26:38 AM · #23
Apparently I ranked well in your books computerking, I got quite a wonderful comment from you :) Thanks :)

I agree that you are NOT being harsh, I voted about the same. 5 was the starting point, then down and up from there .. mostly down =(
08/19/2004 01:47:49 AM · #24
You are voting on how the image affected you -- the only way I would consider this harsh is if you voted lower than what you feel it deserves.

Oh, and don't feel the need to explain yourself -- your opinion is your own and there is never a good reason to feel compelled to have others accept it.

David
08/19/2004 02:01:32 AM · #25
One way to resolve this comment thingie is not to respond period. You get the comment and you eat it. You posted your effort for others to comment..here you invite the astute, the frustrated, the prejudiced and the entire mix to join in.

The important thing is the final sorting. If you received more good than bad then you win the comment test. To let a comment affect your disposition may show a bigger problem within you than with the commentator.
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