| Author | Thread |
|
|
07/23/2002 11:48:29 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by jochen:
How about a pic of a human skull, with stars & stripes painted on? Must be easy to do in PS...
Or how about a pic of their unsigned line in the Kyoto treaty? After all, it was not signed to "save" their economy?
And what about child slavery in Asia? A kid stitching the Nike logo on a sneaker for example.
Subjects enough to define corporate US "outside US". Something on that 30% subsidy for US steel. Or something on their war against tereorism (which will soon turn into a "war for oil", as we all expect)? I could go on for quite a while...
Not easy to put some of these things into a picture. But any attempt will get high scores from me!
J.
Hey Jochen,
You've shown us how 'educated' you are about controversial American political issues. It looks like you've been reading a bunch of one-sided mega-liberal b.s. To be truly informed, you must know all sides of an issue and realize that nothing political (or in life) is black and white. For the most part, Americans are a pretty good lot of people. What do you know about the billions of $$ the U.S. gives away to foreign countries in need? What do you know about life in China/Asia and how the workers there feel about the opportunity to earn a living (at wages competitive or better than those offered by local entities)?? How do you think all of the families over here feel about sending our loved ones into hostile territory to mitigate the political unrest of foreign countries. War on oil? What the h*ll?! You're way way off-base there.
Finally, what do you have to say about politics and corporations in Belgium...or don't you have those over there?
|
|
|
|
07/23/2002 12:17:37 PM · #52 |
To justify sweatshops is sick. We fought years to regulate hours and pay, do they have to do that all over again? Do you think those children get anywhere near of what they deserve? We pay them 2 dollars an hour or something to make clothes and shoes and sell it for 60 dollars.
We liberated Kuwait for the oil and everybody knows it. For every Kuwait that needs help, there is a Rawanda and a Bosnia (which took years our help). I know not everybody in America is evil, but we have to become a little more aware of what is going on in the rest of world.
Originally posted by Zeissman:
What about a picture of Americans liberating Kuwait? What about a photograph of the billions of dollars we give to 3rd world nations? What about a picture of the memorials of the thousands that have died on foriegn shores to liberate other countries? (Cuba, the Phillipines, Korea, Europe....)
What about a picture depicting the working conditions and pay of the local factories and the one of US companies (where pay is higher and conditions are better?
This bleeding heart crap sickens me. If that child was not working in a Nike factory do you think he would be in school? He is not a slave, he is working for money he and his family needs. The same thing happened in the US during the industrial revolution. It is part of the growth of any society.
Originally posted by jochen:
[i]How about a pic of a human skull, with stars & stripes painted on? Must be easy to do in PS...
Or how about a pic of their unsigned line in the Kyoto treaty? After all, it was not signed to "save" their economy?
And what about child slavery in Asia? A kid stitching the Nike logo on a sneaker for example.
Subjects enough to define corporate US "outside US". Something on that 30% subsidy for US steel. Or something on their war against tereorism (which will soon turn into a "war for oil", as we all expect)? I could go on for quite a while...
Not easy to put some of these things into a picture. But any attempt will get high scores from me!
J.
[/i]
|
|
|
|
07/23/2002 12:57:14 PM · #53 |
that's all well and good....
but let's get back to photography, shall we? that's what this site is about.
: ) |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 03:59:35 PM · #54 |
| I agree, I was just thinking the same thing. This is not a Geo-political site. |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 04:13:33 PM · #55 |
Don't we all get enough of the 'political' yada yada from TV, Radio, newspapers?
Let's talk photos!
|
|
|
|
07/23/2002 04:22:24 PM · #56 |
Well, this is a rant site and there are some good rants here for sure :-)
I guess what boils down to is we are all humans and human behaviour is ignorant of borders, skin color or national heritages.
Corporations are under the gun all over the world from Japan, to Korea to Argentina to the U.S of A.
|
|
|
|
07/23/2002 04:39:35 PM · #57 |
Hokie.........I stand (errh, sit) corrected. It is a RANT forum.
My error.
|
|
|
|
07/23/2002 04:54:38 PM · #58 |
Just for information's sake. Today, i had to go to the doctor. In the waiting area were the typical magazines. In desperation to think of a picture for this week, I selected a "gasp" business magazine. Read it (okay, okay, looked at the pictures -- though there was one article on martha stewart -- hint, hint, hokie). Then, went to the mall to a book store that has a fair amount of magazines. Now, I am in smalltown, USA, at an American Bookstore, looking at American Magazines, about American Economics and you know what I noticed? No, Karma, what did you notice? I'll tell you what i noticed. Of the covers that had people on them, do you know how many showed an American (not an Asian-American, African-American, just American American)? One. yea, one. Several had people from the Orient, a couple were European, one was American. one.
What is the point to this? Heck, I don't know. But I did take the earlier negative comments about Americans personally. America is not perfect, but neither is any nation that I know. My travels are not extensive, but I will take my 2-story ranch with 15-year-how-am-I-going-to-make-the-payment-this-month-house, my 8 yr old almost paid for Jeep, and the how-will-I-ever-provide-tuition-for-my-son, over the poverty I have experienced in Honduras, or the ramblings of every right to so and so group as opposed to the fear that some of my friends in Russia know on a daily basis.
You bothered by American businesses in your country? PLEASE send them back! I have 30 or so friends that are out of work right now because their company relocated (to another country), and they weren't given the option to go.
No, this isn't a political site, but when people start saying that Americans are greedy, capitalists, and ethno-centric, I kinda take offense. Okay, maybe we are capitalists, but not all of us are greedy and ethno-centric.
Sorry to keep on. I tried not to post this. but then that little patriot inside of me tied me up, and typed this. Maybe when I get loose I will delete it.
I thoroughly enjoy the contributions from other places. It gives a little flavor, if you will.
I will apologize in advance if I offend anyone. That is not my intent at all. If you want to further discuss this, PM me, and we will continue. I will not, however, apologize for being an American, or being proud of it.
Karma |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 04:55:36 PM · #59 |
Hey Drew or Langdon, lock this thread, will ya? Then I can have the last word!!
:-)
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/23/2002 4:55:44 PM. |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 05:08:16 PM · #60 |
karmat...I told you guys months ago "Tea Time at Martha Stewarts" about that bit.. ermm..witch..hehe
She is up for investigation for insider trading..Well, no DUH!!!!!
But so are a lot of Koreans..heheheh
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/23/2002 5:08:02 PM. |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 05:35:50 PM · #61 |
I wanna know how many peoples' parents paid for their post secondary education and how I can get in on some of that! :P
Karmat are you intending on paying for your son's entire education? Around here in northern ontario 4 years of university can put you in debt over $50 000.. and that's if you're lucky! |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 05:41:13 PM · #62 |
No, he's only 6 months old :-), but I do want to be able to help him. My parents didn't pay for mine either -- I had a full scholarship. Education costs are crazy aren't they? Not all schools will run you as much as you've mentioned, but to go to Duke, Chapel Hill, etc (I live in NC, can you tell?) it will cost a pretty penny.
(There, I've still got the last word!) |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 08:50:57 PM · #63 |
Interesting read this thread.
The current war on terror and the unsigned Kyoto treaty is not "bleeding heart crap" to people outside the US. It affects them, so they have a stronger opinion on it.
Of course I do not think that all americans are bad and the US can't do any good. But the US has a big influence on the rest of the world and unfortunatley it does not always use it for good things and/or misuses it for selfish reasons. The refusal to accept the new International Criminal Court is one of the recent examples.
But the same way some americans still think all Germans are Nazis, some non-US citizen think all americans are greedy capitalists chewing bubble gum all the time ;-)
What I want to say is that stereotypes suck, but nobody should put away criticism, even if it's sarcastic like jochen's.
Back to talking photos: I have to admit that I would somehow hesitate to submit an US critic photo to this site. Especially after this thread. I recognize a strong patriotism among US citizen and I think many would vote down such a photo. I also think the photos explicitly showing american pride (and there are quite a few) are unconsciously voted higher because US people feel more touched by them. But I think that's normal because the majority on this site are americans and they naturally feel more touched by such photos.
|
|
|
|
07/23/2002 09:19:14 PM · #64 |
I agree with the first part, stephan, but I don''t think the photo that is critical of the U.S will be voted down. I think voters will vote high for a photograph if it has a great visual impact, whether they agree with it or not. Americans are smart enough to seperate patriotism from blind faith in the country. Criticism does not mean you do not love your country.
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/23/2002 9:19:38 PM. |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 09:26:01 PM · #65 |
Oh to heck with it.....God bless America.
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/23/2002 9:28:38 PM. |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 09:27:52 PM · #66 |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 09:44:09 PM · #67 |
I think the problem with this challenge is the concept and the attendant emotions are so complex it is difficult what object/s one could shoot that would represent this big topic.
I'm a mustard seed in the wheels of a major corporation that's grasping at straws trying to stay afoat. My poor little retirement portfolio is drying up. Everything cost more, but we are not earning more. They lie to us. How to photograph THAT. aelith |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 09:44:15 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by stephan:
Interesting read this thread.
The current war on terror and the unsigned Kyoto treaty is not "bleeding heart crap" to people outside the US. It affects them, so they have a stronger opinion on it.
Stephan, well said... but...
...Please read the text of the Kyoto treaty and explain why America should sign on to it. Many think we are way out of line, but I doubt many of those people have READ the treaty.
...The current ''war on terror'' may seem like an excuse for Americans to play with high tech weapons, but you might want to take note that the activities of ''terrorists'' is no limited to US interests... Europe has been and will continue to be a target of the same people we are currently fighting. It would sure be nice to have the backing of the folks we are trying to protect, but we''ve come not to expect that anymore...
...Lastly, Jochen''s criticism was not so much sarcastic as it was blatantly bigotted. I understand that he is too young to remember his own countries history, but I remember all too well. My uncle died in Antwerp, likely trying to liberate his parents. To Jochen, Your welcome...
But that is just me :)
PS ~ I would vote a shot critical of US corperations on the merits of the photo and would likely give extra points to a striking criticism, and I hope others will too (mainly cause I kind of plan to do one myself :) )
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/23/2002 9:52:35 PM. |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 09:49:04 PM · #69 |
Ok I've had my rant. feel better.
Drew, Langdon, let this be a lesson to you. Never serve politicts and religion at the party.
aelith |
|
|
|
07/23/2002 10:39:54 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
Stephan, well said... but...
...Please read the text of the Kyoto treaty and explain why America should sign on to it. Many think we are way out of line, but I doubt many of those people have READ the treaty.
I did not read the treaty article by article. I guess I wouldn't understand it more if I did (full of legal hogwash). So like most of us I rely on articles explaining it to me. The treaty itself also does not say why the US does not want to sign it. But this article told me (1st reason: treaty bad for US economy, 2nd reason: US technically not able to produce required amounts of natural gas).
...The current ''war on terror'' may seem like an excuse for Americans to play with high tech weapons, but you might want to take note that the activities of ''terrorists'' is no limited to US interests... Europe has been and will continue to be a target of the same people we are currently fighting. It would sure be nice to have the backing of the folks we are trying to protect, but we''ve come not to expect that anymore...
I have a different opinion on war and on violence in general. I do not think the "war on terror" is an appropiate measure to prevent future terrorist attacks. I also do not like that my country participates in this war.
If you take the _publically_ available information, there are more reasons to believe the attack on the WTC and the pentagon was a government conspiracy than that is was Al Quaida. (Oh, I'll get smashed for that).
I'll stop here. I don't want to misuse this site as my political forum.
...Lastly, Jochen''s criticism was not so much sarcastic as it was blatantly bigotted. I understand that he is too young to remember his own countries history, but I remember all too well. My uncle died in Antwerp, likely trying to liberate his parents. To Jochen, Your welcome...
Jochen did not mention anything about WW2.
The brother of my grandma (age of 19) was killed by soviets who "liberated" Germany. War sucks.
Argh. I wanted to stop. Please PM me if you like to discuss more.
PS ~ I would vote a shot critical of US corperations on the merits of the photo and would likely give extra points to a striking criticism, and I hope others will too (mainly cause I kind of plan to do one myself :)
I didn't mean that it's voted down on purpose but unconsciously because of the subjective feeling. Like a US flag appeals to americans. Scoring a photo is a subjective process.
P.S.: Actually I like it that the challenge topic causes discussion. So Drew & Langdon please don't see this thread as an argument against other such topics. Please see this as a positive thing to get together. Art can be controversial.
Now if I only could put my feelings about "corporate world" into a photo ;-)
|
|
|
|
07/23/2002 10:59:06 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by stephan:
[
Now if I only could put my feelings about "corporate world" into a photo ;-)
[/i]
Perhaps that's the real challenge to all of us. |
|
|
|
07/24/2002 04:42:38 AM · #72 |
To all US people who feel offended by what I wrote...
No, I don't hate America. Yes, I know lotsa US people are ordinary people like myself, just trying to make a living. No, I do not see everything "in B&W". I know it's all just shades of grey...
What I was going for: US people should be more aware of the impact of the decisions their government makes. Their foreign policy just sucks. I'm sorry, it just does. The fact that this may have been different in WWII does not matter. Why do they bring that up every time?
Maybe it helps a bit if you would understand how the rest of the world looks at US these days. Here goes...
-Unsigned Kyoto treaty. All other countries signed, and are currently trying to do something about the environment. It costs them a lot. US did not sign, altough it is the largest pollutor. Main reason for not signing it (as said before in this thread): to save their own economy. They are jeopardizing the environment by doing so. And since the others are makeing a lot of efforts, the balance between US economy and foreign economies is lost.
-Helping other countries financially. Please don't speak about "billions of dollars given to 3rd world nations". Out of all the "rich" countries, US is the most rich of all, yet "in % of the gross national income", US gives less than one percent, which is the least of all, as other countries are giving about 3 to 4%, and for most of them there's a positive tendency (7% is the goal).
-Their policy in the middle east. US sends more money to Israël than the total amount of money they sent to 3rd world countries. No strings attached! This is destabilizing the middle east. Did you know Israel has the 2nd biggest army in the whole world? Again, I'm not saying Isreal is black and Palestina is white. I know it's all a grey area. But at this point in time, Israel is abusing it's power. Power, granted by US dollars. US dollars, giving Israel the oportunity NOT to strive for peace. In my country, newspapers sometimes report about the truly discriminating laws that Israel imposes, or about a baby in Palestina that died because the ambulance could not get to it in time (as it was stopped by 5 roadblocks, thereby losing several hours), and so on... I don't see that on CNN. Yes, Palestinians react like a dog driven into a corner; they bite. I don't like the way they "bite" (by human bombs). Nobody does, but I can understand them a bit (as they have no other means of attacking an enemy that strong/rich. But please search for the cause of this behavior, instead of just judgeing them. Nobody explodes himself for fun. Isreal is just one example of how US is trying to destabilize the whole region by favouring some and declaring war on others. Ther's two reasons for doing this: oil (again, as mentionned by a US citizen above), and the fact that it keeps US weapon industry going.
-The refusal to accept the new International Criminal Court. US did not sign, because they do not want US people to be judged by an international court. An example: two years ago, 15 people died in a cable cart in Italy. US fighters were having fun by flying under the cables. But one fighter hit them, and the cart dropped to the ground. The fighter pilots were judged before a US military court. Not guilty! But they did give the victim's families some money after years of debate. But no apologies. How does that make us feel, you think?
Anyway, this is just a VERY small example, but please stop waveing slogans like "freedom of speech" at us, because it looks like they're just hollow words. We're the ones going for that freedom, US (by not signing) is not.
-Another value is "freedom of trade". But of all of the free countried, US has the least open economy of all. Recently, they've subsidized their steel economy with 30%, causing other steel providers to be more expensive and loose market share.
I could go on for a while, I guess. The fact is: WE are not the ones that get one-sided information, US PEOPLE are. The only international news they seem to get is "news about US people abroad".
In conclusion: please don't hate us for having a different opinion. Just analize what is going on, and improve the situation. Waving stars & stripes won't work.
J. |
|
|
|
07/24/2002 08:16:31 AM · #73 |
Well spoken..... this may add to the conversation. Also it explains the Oil comment someone made earlier that I think people are not getting.
>Lie #5: "We're not at war with the Afghan people -- look,
>we're bringing them food!"
>
>Reality: Afghanistan is in the midst of a severe drought
>which threatens literally millions of people with
>starvation. Even before the threat of US bombing, the
>World Food Program (WFP) said that nearly 6 million
>people were in need of immediate food assistance. When
>the threat of war caused massive movements of refugees
>and internally displaced people, the WFP raised that
>number to 7.5 million. UN agencies were keeping huge
>numbers of people alive, but the war danger -- as well as
>the US demand that Pakistan seal its border with
>Afghanistan -- caused the WFP to suspend deliveries of
>wheat flour to the country. We have no idea how many
>people have already died as a result. Meanwhile, the US
>dropped 37,000 individually-wrapped packages of food from
>the sky. You do the math. That's enough to feed about
>37,000 people for one day, in a country where seven and a
>half million are in danger of starvation. Additionally,
>the spokesman for an international charity active in
>Afghanistan told the London Independent that "Random food
>drops are the worst possible way of delivering food aid.
>They cause more problems than they solve." Not the least
>of which is the fact that Afghanistan has the highest
>number of unexploded land mines in the world. There are
>already 10 or 15 mine incidents every day, and with
>people scrambling into mine-ridden areas to pick up
>random packages of food dropped from US planes, that
>number is only going to go up.
>
>Lie #4: "Oil? Who said anything about oil?"
>
>Reality: The Caspian Sea region has potentially the
>world's largest oil reserves, likely making Central Asia
>the next Middle East. The problem is piping it out.
>Afghanistan occupies a strategic position between the
>Caspian and the markets of the Indian subcontinent and
>east Asia. It's prime territory for building pipelines,
>which is why the oil company Unocal -- as well as the US
>government -- welcomed the Taliban's rise to power in
>1996 as a promising source of "stability." That turned
>out to be a pipe dream (so to speak), but people like our
>Commander-in-Chief and the oil men around him have never
>given up on the tremendous profit possibilities that
>Central Asia offers. And if you don't think such
>considerations are crossing their minds at this time of
>crisis, may we suggest a refresher course in The Facts of
>Life?
>
>Lie #3: "The US is trying to liberate the people of
>Afghanistan from Taliban tyranny."
>
>Reality: The US, Russia, and Iran have been aiding a
>rough coalition of armed groups called the Northern
>Alliance. The Northern Alliance's fighters are drawn
>mainly from ethnic minority groups in Afghanistan who
>have been persecuted by the Taliban. But their record is
>also a bloody one. Groups like the Revolutionary
>Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA), which
>have been fighting against fundamentalism and for
>democracy in Afghanistan for years, have publicly stated
>that the fundamentalist gangsters of the Northern
>Alliance are not an acceptable alternative to the
>fundamentalist gangsters of the Taliban. No wonder: Human
>Rights Watch implicates the Northern Alliance in
>"indiscriminate aerial bombardment and shelling, direct
>attacks on civilians, summary executions, rape,
>persecution on the basis of religion or ethnicity, the
>recruitment and use of children as soldiers, and the use
>of antipersonnel landmines." By now everyone knows that
>Osama bin Laden was among the mujihadin recruited by the
>CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Meet the next
>generation. |
|
|
|
07/24/2002 08:19:06 AM · #74 |
Any thing else?
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/24/2002 8:19:14 AM.
* This message has been edited by the author on 7/24/2002 8:26:28 AM. |
|
|
|
07/24/2002 09:00:06 AM · #75 |
Edited twice...never a good sign.
And no, number two and number one were even a bit laughable to me so I figured why include them. I am sure someone else is going to post though. |
|
