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07/19/2012 12:03:11 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Yup. But I have yet to have someone give me a 1 or a 2 and articulate a somewhat intelligent response. That's the whole point. The 1 or 2 doesn't necessarily mean an intelligent response. It could be the few people that are trying to rig the vote. If you have an intelligent reason for voting a 1 or 2, take the time to teach and comment. |
I'll take you up on this challenge, but the minute I get the first PM about my vote, I'll stop doing it.
My guess it will last two, maybe three challenges in. I do give out a vote of 1 for what I perceive to be DNMC entries regardless of any other aspect of the photo, so this should be fun. |
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07/19/2012 12:09:37 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Yup. But I have yet to have someone give me a 1 or a 2 and articulate a somewhat intelligent response. That's the whole point. The 1 or 2 doesn't necessarily mean an intelligent response. It could be the few people that are trying to rig the vote. If you have an intelligent reason for voting a 1 or 2, take the time to teach and comment. |
I'll take you up on this challenge, but the minute I get the first PM about my vote, I'll stop doing it.
My guess it will last two, maybe three challenges in. I do give out a vote of 1 for what I perceive to be DNMC entries regardless of any other aspect of the photo, so this should be fun. |
No, don't... Re-read my original post please.
Make those comments.. Anyone who complains and isn't generally ok with this is actually out of line, as they submitted themselves to a challenge...
Be polite, be kind, be helpful, don't comment on anything that isn't relevant to the quality and "fit" of the image. Don't even bother telling them what score you gave them, no matter if it's a 10, or a 1, let them wonder if you'd prefer not to debate score... Tell them how you feel about the image instead, as that's harder to argue with.
Also, please, if you can, don't just say DNMC and go forward, tell me WHY you think it failed to meet the challenge, sometimes it's not easy, but just a bit of info can help.
And please, go make the comments, for every person who complains loudly, there are ten who are thanking you silently.
Message edited by author 2012-07-19 00:13:12. |
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07/19/2012 12:11:51 AM · #53 |
| I think what I'm struggling with is that one can have an unenlightened view that their commenting is being helpful, to the point of carrying the cause through to a Pyrrhic victory. There has been adequate opinions expressed either way to what Cory and others support, I to the contrary. It's not you Cory but the mindset, so I'm not using you as to blame. Just as after voting is finished the pictures bear the merit given by the general consensus of voters, the commenter will been seen and held to the same standard. My point is that this subject being discussed has the feel of passive aggression, the outcome already decided, with us or against us. Add to that the fact of voting is usually about 100-140 voters in a community of much more. |
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07/19/2012 12:22:18 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by daisydavid:
I think what I'm struggling with is that one can have an unenlightened view that their commenting is being helpful, to the point of carrying the cause through to a Pyrrhic victory. There has been adequate opinions expressed either way to what Cory and others support, I to the contrary. It's not you Cory but the mindset, so I'm not using you as to blame. Just as after voting is finished the pictures bear the merit given by the general consensus of voters, the commenter will been seen and held to the same standard. My point is that this subject being discussed has the feel of passive aggression, the outcome already decided, with us or against us. Add to that the fact of voting is usually about 100-140 voters in a community of much more. |
;)
I invited dissent... Honestly it's welcome.
I sorta see your point, but I'd say that a simple truth is "knowledge is power". I feel that any comment no matter how dead-headed, gives me insight and knowledge about the voters preferences, biases, thoughts, feelings, irrationality, etc. That's a very useful thing, and I'll take all of it I can get. Therefore I tend to welcome all comments, no matter what the nature thereof. Heck, if I actually drive someone to be terribly rude, I'll probably feel pretty great about it, considering that getting emotive reactions is something I really enjoy, although rarely does my photography inspire many "passionate" responses.
Besides, what, really, does it matter that the placement is decided separate from the comments? I'm sure you didn't mean it, but it almost seems like you're suggesting that since you can't fix it, you'd rather not know... *shrug* I'm sure you're not saying that, but I think you can see where I might get that idea.
So, tell me, why do you feel that comments on challenge entries, made in the effort to improve the photographers ability, are generally something should be considered as passive aggressive? I'm just not sure I really have a clear understanding of what you're getting at. |
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07/19/2012 12:47:04 AM · #55 |
| No, encouraging voters to play rougher is passive aggressive and divisive as to justify how you think it should be done. Submissions that place anywhere indicates the standards of the voters, the comments about those submissions will be judged in viewers minds the same way. So if someone submits, does poorly by the standard of voters and gets hard but plausible comments, is that an incentive to be a contributor? Spare the rod and spoil the child spurs resentment and discontent. I understand to argue against widespread simplistic comments, but I'm not advocating apathy or babying egos, so please leave that out of the discussions. I'm saying handing out comments straight from the hip doesn't necessarily make you better at commenting or being better at interpreting artworks. What makes your comments something anyone wants to read is a product of how broad your knowledge and understanding is, I certainly don't consider myself a good commenter. And doesn't what you are advocating go to the very heart of the recent skirmish between Paul and Margaret? |
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07/19/2012 01:50:12 AM · #56 |
I think it's silly that people bicker as if they've been subject to a peraonal attack. I get critical comments, usually to which I am THANKFUL that the person has taken the time to assess my image.
I do think some people are a bit too deep but I don't think they should stop - there is a lot to be gained.
Please comment/criticise/compliment/insult my photos! |
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07/19/2012 05:57:25 AM · #57 |
| Very well said Cory, I am agree with you but hope people understand this. Hope you will keep sharing such type of knowledgeable information. |
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07/19/2012 08:32:23 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by daisydavid:
No, encouraging voters to play rougher is passive aggressive and divisive as to justify how you think it should be done. Submissions that place anywhere indicates the standards of the voters, the comments about those submissions will be judged in viewers minds the same way. So if someone submits, does poorly by the standard of voters and gets hard but plausible comments, is that an incentive to be a contributor? Spare the rod and spoil the child spurs resentment and discontent. I understand to argue against widespread simplistic comments, but I'm not advocating apathy or babying egos, so please leave that out of the discussions. I'm saying handing out comments straight from the hip doesn't necessarily make you better at commenting or being better at interpreting artworks. What makes your comments something anyone wants to read is a product of how broad your knowledge and understanding is, I certainly don't consider myself a good commenter. And doesn't what you are advocating go to the very heart of the recent skirmish between Paul and Margaret? |
You have expressed this quite well, (but I think, if there is going to be an advocate for no-holds-barred commenting, Cory has been diplomatic in his presentation) |
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07/19/2012 08:41:28 AM · #59 |
I sort of agree, but there are other factors to take into account. I do not live in a lovely natural landscape so all those winners with great skies won't happen here. I also do not have a studio, can't afford props, can't even afford CS6. I still use. Elements 5. So some of us, no matter how hard we try, or how many challenges we enter, will not be able to "learn" what DP considers good photography. I do not stay with this site for long when I get the hankering to visit again. I am once again nearing the end of my current visit. Why do I not stay and participate each week? Mostly because I know I can't take photos like the winners here, so I move on and take what interests me, enter in local contests and fairs, win money, sell prints at galleries in my state, and if I have time I might enter a challenge. I will come back here again to say hi to old friends, but know full well that I will continue to primarily get scores between 4 and 6.
As to the winners here, I don't agree that it means they are the best photographers to hit the planet. Yes, for this site they are the best, but I also feel that the style discourages people from finding their own voice. Why did I choose Sony instead of Canon like everybody here? Because I don't wish to follow the crowd. Why do I like soft focus rather than tack sharp? Because I believe in other styles of photography. Why do I like minimal editing? Because then the clothes are off and you can't rely on photoshop to get a mediocre photo to look magnificent. Why do I like black and white? Because it is all about composition. What do I see with minimal editing and black and white challenges? I see new people in the top 30%. Same with soft focus.
That all being said, I don't have issues with negative comments. Just realize for me it won't make a difference. I don't know how much DP has really helped me. It mostly appears my subject is the problem with the scoring, but I can only take so many subjects. As I said, without a natural pastoral landscape or expensive props and lenses, I can only do so much. I am not about to spend $12,000 dollars for a fixed 500 mm lens to try to break a high 6 in a wildlife challenge. I am not about to rent a studio, buy lighting equipment, hire a model just to try to finally get a 7 at DP for the chance to win a virtual ribbon in a portrait callenge. I will not spend $600+ dollars on CS6 to try to have more flexibility in editing to improve scores.
If I do spend money on photography, it will be because I am interested in what I can do with my purchase. I do not take photos fr DP, I do not take popular photos, I do believe DP is now more interested in "marketability" and as to the kearning aspect, I don't think it is so prevalent now. Thank God there are still folks like Bear_Music who still retain the original spirit of this site.
Do I sound a little miffed here? Here is the clincher. If I take the same subject as another dp person, and that person has a high end camera and lens, and all the bells and whistles, it won't matter that the subject is the same. They will get a 7 and I will get a 5. That is the reality of DP.
Message edited by author 2012-07-19 09:02:02. |
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07/19/2012 09:03:29 AM · #60 |
| I suspect it is not as much about the camera as ou suggest. I am fairly confident that Ansel Adams could do much better with my gear than I am able to do. I would love to have a bigger budget for fancy lenses and lights and even a full frame body, but I know I can do better with what I have. I don't expect to win any ribbons here, but I like to see how well I can do compared to my own average. I take comments to be an opportunity to do better at what I have set my hand to doing in that photo. I sometimes draw a blank as to what to shoot next. Challenges make my kind work on a new idea. Sometimes I just go through the mental exercise and end up photographing something new that dnmc, but a challenge topic was helpful in getting me there. I don't always enter my pictures, but I enjoy taking them, and I am always happy when someone looks at them and gives me an honest opinion of here I could have done something better or different. |
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07/19/2012 09:18:52 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I honestly shouldn't even need to post this thread |
Actually, you didn't need to post this thread at all. |
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07/19/2012 09:33:41 AM · #62 |
Cory,
Just a bit of constructive criticism of your recent comment on one of my images in the voting phase of a challenge. I did mark your comment as helpful. I did not send you a PM. However, in your comment you spent some time and several words asking if the image belongs to me. And, if yes, then you expressed disappointment with the composition... apparently because you thought it might be mine.
It's okay to guess whose image belongs to whom. (I get that all the time.) But, that should not affect your assessment of the image
and it's a bit inappropriate to include your image authorship guess as a part of the comment. A friend you are. But, friend or foe.... shouldn't matter to your assessment of the image.
The big deficit in your comment was that you never mentioned any suggestions for improvement. As a matter of fact, it would have simply been very helpful had you mentioned what about the composition you found weak.
My purpose in writing this is to point out that not all comments are helpful, but are often marked helpful at DPC, because that is the culture.
Richard
Message edited by author 2012-07-19 09:38:44. |
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07/19/2012 10:25:37 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by JunieMoon:
Do I sound a little miffed here? Here is the clincher. If I take the same subject as another dp person, and that person has a high end camera and lens, and all the bells and whistles, it won't matter that the subject is the same. They will get a 7 and I will get a 5. That is the reality of DP. |
DPC helps when you realize that you don't want to get the expensive stuff, but you work with what you have to improve your skills.
 ajhopp produced truly incredible sill lifes -- all natural lighting and a white sheet hung over the window.
Early on in the camera phone challenge,  bear_music was lamenting that he was getting close to a profile shot with a camera phone after buying some really nice new glass.
This shot  was taken with a 100mm lens. I got the shot, not because of a really expensive, long lens, but because of the light and the wildlife in my backyard over the last two years -- simply because of DPC and a discovered love of nature photography.
Look at jagar's portraits:    -- all natural lighting -- all candids -- all truly incredible.
The trick is not to be defensive about what you don't have, but embrace your decisions and work with what you do have. It sounds like you do this outside of DPC. But DPC can help bring things to a new height.
Perhaps the difference is that you don't take pictures for DPC and I do. Do I want to take pictures of desserts? No. Did I want to take pictures of glass? No. Would I rather be shooting wildlife? Yes. Do I stick wildlife in wherever I can? Definitely! Why else would there have been a squirrel in a fork challenge? :)
I keep doing it, even though I'd rather be taking pictures of other things, because I've learned an incredible amount in the process that I have applied to the photography I do love.
I liken it to piano playing. I loved playing the piano and I took lessons for a couple of years. I was really quite good. But I didn't practice much, and I only wanted to practice what I wanted to practice. I thought that should be good enough. Practicing the scales and the exercises given to me seemed silly. Practicing the song was what was important -- it makes the song better.
NOT.
The scales, the exercises, were far more important than the songs, because they applied to whatever I wanted to play and carried through all of my playing.
Same with the exercises in photography. When I took a picture of a dessert, I was learning about lighting. Whether it was artificial or natural, my shot was about the lighting and the composition. Glass gave a whole new set of problems because whatever lighting I had created reflections that I didn't like, so I had to change it up and fix the problem. By fixing the problem, I realized that the new lighting changed it from being about the subject to more of being about the lines of the subject. I found it completely fascinating, and spent more time than I thought I would experimenting. I used the wide angle challenge to see what I could do with a close subject and a wide angle, instead of just finding a landscape. The abstract series had me playing with things I had no interest in 2 years ago, but because of DPC have really come to enjoy.
I've had incredible adventures with my family because of DPC. We went in search of an abandoned civil war era tunnel because of the tunnel challenge. My husband dressed up in a bathrobe and stood in front of a bulldozer for the book title challenge. My daughter "levitated" in the city. I took my 16 year old daughter and a friend and my 12 year old son out at midnight to a local college to do a murder scene for "film noir". My son and I got up at some ungodly hour of the morning for the 2am (or 3am or whatever that challenge was).
Think of DPC as school. How you use it, and how you stretch and grow is all do to what you put into it and how you use it. When a challenge comes up, and I don't know what to do with it, or if it doesn't interest me, I go study things for awhile. I look up photos on 1x, on 500px, and I find out what I like, what I don't like, and what I want to do differently to put my own stamp on it. Ubique (I think it was him...) recommended "the photo book" to learn more about other styles and other photographers. That's what I'm doing to expand my horizons a bit at a time.
Everything we do becomes a part of who we are. So I'm using DPC to get as much as I can. I'm not just doing the things I want or enjoy -- I'm doing it all, and learning with each and every challenge.
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07/19/2012 12:12:05 PM · #64 |
| Nothing's perfect, right? Unless, of course, you alter your model of perfection. Which is completely do-able. |
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07/19/2012 01:00:19 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Cory,
Just a bit of constructive criticism of your recent comment on one of my images in the voting phase of a challenge. I did mark your comment as helpful. I did not send you a PM. However, in your comment you spent some time and several words asking if the image belongs to me. And, if yes, then you expressed disappointment with the composition... apparently because you thought it might be mine.
It's okay to guess whose image belongs to whom. (I get that all the time.) But, that should not affect your assessment of the image
and it's a bit inappropriate to include your image authorship guess as a part of the comment. A friend you are. But, friend or foe.... shouldn't matter to your assessment of the image.
The big deficit in your comment was that you never mentioned any suggestions for improvement. As a matter of fact, it would have simply been very helpful had you mentioned what about the composition you found weak.
My purpose in writing this is to point out that not all comments are helpful, but are often marked helpful at DPC, because that is the culture.
Richard |
Hey, you are ALWAYS welcome to PM me man.. :)
I agree, I didn't offer too much in the way of suggestions, largely because I knew it had to be yours (from a comment you made previously, as well as style/location), and the only real suggestions I had were basically just related to that (in your comment, can't post here) in your image, and I knew (from your previous comment) that you already were aware of the potential of some DNMC votes, although I didn't particularly find it to be so.
Anyway, I improved your comment a bit, but I'm hoping in return you'll help me to understand your perspective on predicting who created the image, and why you feel guessing the authorship is inappropriate? I'm not absolutely disagreeing, but it is something I do like to do when I think I recognize the feel of the image... It's an enjoyable game for me. |
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07/19/2012 01:05:55 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by Cory:
...
Anyway, I improved your comment a bit, but I'm hoping in return you'll help me to understand your perspective on predicting who created the image, and why you feel guessing the authorship is inappropriate? I'm not absolutely disagreeing, but it is something I do like to do when I think I recognize the feel of the image... It's an enjoyable game for me. |
Guessing the authorship of an image is okay. I do it all the time. All I was saying is that presumed knowledge of image ownership should not influence the score one gives to an image, or more importantly, the nature of the constructive criticism offered.
Thanks for the improved comment. |
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07/19/2012 01:23:52 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Originally posted by Cory:
...
Anyway, I improved your comment a bit, but I'm hoping in return you'll help me to understand your perspective on predicting who created the image, and why you feel guessing the authorship is inappropriate? I'm not absolutely disagreeing, but it is something I do like to do when I think I recognize the feel of the image... It's an enjoyable game for me. |
Guessing the authorship of an image is okay. I do it all the time. All I was saying is that presumed knowledge of image ownership should not influence the score one gives to an image, or more importantly, the nature of the constructive criticism offered.
Thanks for the improved comment. |
Heh.. I agree *mostly*.. In this particular case it was a little special since I pretty much knew that one was yours. Still, I voted it just the same as I would have in any case, I do agree that it (correctly, or incorrectly, perhaps the latter), did change my critique a little.. |
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07/19/2012 01:24:59 PM · #68 |
Just about any comment about an image, no matter how poorly worded, can be considered helpful.
If you don't agree with the comment, keep in mind that you might be too close to your own creation to evaluate it and it will help you to consider a different perspective.
Even very brief comments like "Hate this" or "terrible" should help you. You might want more information about why or what-have-you, but just knowing that someone likes or dislikes your image enough to comment should help you see it differently. |
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07/19/2012 02:34:55 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by JunieMoon:
Do I sound a little miffed here? Here is the clincher. If I take the same subject as another dp person, and that person has a high end camera and lens, and all the bells and whistles, it won't matter that the subject is the same. They will get a 7 and I will get a 5. That is the reality of DP. |
DPC helps when you realize that you don't want to get the expensive stuff, but you work with what you have to improve your skills.
Think of DPC as school. How you use it, and how you stretch and grow is all do to what you put into it and how you use it. When a challenge comes up, and I don't know what to do with it, or if it doesn't interest me, I go study things for awhile. I look up photos on 1x, on 500px, and I find out what I like, what I don't like, and what I want to do differently to put my own stamp on it. Ubique (I think it was him...) recommended "the photo book" to learn more about other styles and other photographers. That's what I'm doing to expand my horizons a bit at a time.
Everything we do becomes a part of who we are. So I'm using DPC to get as much as I can. I'm not just doing the things I want or enjoy -- I'm doing it all, and learning with each and every challenge. |
I thank you for your wisdom, but in all honesty, I am never going to get any better, no matter how much I am told how to do it by DP, by associates, by local artists. I am what I am, and that is why I don't stay at DP for lengthy periods of time. I did in the beginning, but found it too frustrating, so every year I entered fewer challenges. As of now, I may enter 5 to 8 a year, or maybe just 3, or maybe none. It will not affect my time with my camera because I need to go out with my camera at least once a week, but it usually ends up being every day. I now shoot to paint. Everything I want to photograph is usually because I think I might want to paint it. I also am big time into birds, love birds, go all over the state to photograph birds, will be shooting birds when I am in Niagara Falls next week, and am part of EBird, Cornell Ornithology, CT. Audubon, and keep a life list. I however, am a terrible bird photographer. That does not stop me, though. I will keep records, file reports, and participate in bird counts. Actually I think I am really a terrible photographer, and that is probably why I can't stay with DP for long. I have no strengths, I just take lots and lots of photos, have been since I was 10, and still find I can't do much with it, even after high school classes, NY Institute of Photography, college courses, and DP. I am a lost cause. There are a few of us on this arena that just can't be helped. |
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07/19/2012 02:53:55 PM · #70 |
| In my opinion, a strong critique/comment can only be valid when given by someone qualified to do so. If I receive such, I first check the commenter's own successes to see if he/she has a sound track record. |
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07/19/2012 03:09:58 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by JunieMoon:
Actually I think I am really a terrible photographer, and that is probably why I can't stay with DP for long. I have no strengths, I just take lots and lots of photos, have been since I was 10, and still find I can't do much with it, even after high school classes, NY Institute of Photography, college courses, and DP. I am a lost cause. There are a few of us on this arena that just can't be helped. |
you wont ever improve with that attitude. |
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07/19/2012 03:24:29 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Mond:
In my opinion, a strong critique/comment can only be valid when given by someone qualified to do so. If I receive such, I first check the commenter's own successes to see if he/she has a sound track record. |
So, do you really intend to invalidate the opinion of everyone who doesn't share your particular aesthetic values? Perhaps you'd like to rethink your position, or at least your phrasing. How can someone who says "I don't like ___ because ___ ..." be "wrong?" |
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07/19/2012 04:31:51 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by Mond:
In my opinion, a strong critique/comment can only be valid when given by someone qualified to do so. If I receive such, I first check the commenter's own successes to see if he/she has a sound track record. |
There is some validity to this, I also do that when receiving a critique from someone I'm not already familiar with. I think it is also an extreme generalization. We have a number of regulars who could produce (and have) entries with high scoring mass appeal if they wanted to. But they choose to do what enthuses them instead, knowing they will be near the bottom of the challenge on the mass appeal scale. bvy is a good example. The occasional comments I receive from him have a lot of value to me.
Message edited by author 2012-07-19 16:34:04.
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07/19/2012 04:59:50 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Mond:
In my opinion, a strong critique/comment can only be valid when given by someone qualified to do so. If I receive such, I first check the commenter's own successes to see if he/she has a sound track record. |
So you see Cory why folk who are new or have started participating in the site may be a bit backwards in coming forward with their opinion/critique. I for one love receiving critique and the harsher the better but giving it is a whole new ball game when folk either see it as not from this planet or their own portfolio doesn't come up to perceived scratch.
eh folk are a strange breed thank god :):):) |
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07/19/2012 05:26:15 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by Mond:
In my opinion, a strong critique/comment can only be valid when given by someone qualified to do so. If I receive such, I first check the commenter's own successes to see if he/she has a sound track record. |
I think you can do that to see how valid their comment might or might not be. However, many people know and can articulate what they like without having the skills or the want to produce the same.
I can go to a restaurant and eat a meal that I later say I liked or didn't like and say exactly what I thought about it. Does my inability to cook and produce any meal that doesn't come out of the freezer section mean my assessment of the meal I ate is invalid? Hardly. |
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