Court rules against Christian photographer

06/05/2012 02:39:31 PM · #51

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

That is more than I thought. Perhaps more have passed since it last came up (a number of years ago).

No doubt. Most are since 2005.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II

06/05/2012 02:41:08 PM · #52

In the law blog link I had above it said the judge did something odd and said the defense may have made the wrong argument. I'm not sure why a judge would do this. I don't know if that matters on the appeal or not. It sounds like maybe it doesn't matter because I don't think you can raise a new argument on an appeal.

Venser

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

06/05/2012 02:41:25 PM · #53

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by mike_311:
as an employee, my place of business cant force me to do something against my beliefs.

And if you're a white supremacist and the sole employee of a barber shop when a minority walks in...?

Someone's getting a close shave .....

CS

06/05/2012 02:43:50 PM · #54

Originally posted by cosmicassassin:

Someone's getting a close shave .....

Touché!

Message edited by author 2012-06-05 14:43:59.

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II

06/05/2012 02:47:45 PM · #55

Originally posted by scalvert:

be serious, i see what you are trying to do, that level of belief has gone the wayside and and most cases so has race, but we aren't there yet with sexual preferences.

I'm just playing devils advocate here.

im sure a good lawyer could make a case, either way, that what i presented is discrimination or not. however i think its a pretty sticky situation to force a single employee, who happens to own a business, to follow business laws of discrimination if those laws on occasion violates one beliefs, especially when it involves something that isn't entirely accepted practice yet.

Message edited by author 2012-06-05 14:49:17.

Venser

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

06/05/2012 02:50:13 PM · #56

Originally posted by mike_311:

be serious, i see what you are trying to do, that level of belief has gone the wayside and and most cases so has race, but we aren't their yet with sexual preferences.

Apparently you've never visited Georgia. Racism was plain as day from an outsiders perspective, yet the locals saw nothing wrong with it.

CS

06/05/2012 02:51:44 PM · #57

Originally posted by cosmicassassin:

Originally posted by mike_311:
be serious, i see what you are trying to do, that level of belief has gone the wayside and and most cases so has race, but we aren't their yet with sexual preferences.

Apparently you've never visited Georgia. Racism was plain as day from an outsiders perspective, yet the locals saw nothing wrong with it.

CS

i realize its a different country down there.

06/05/2012 02:51:49 PM · #58

Originally posted by mike_311:

be serious, i see what you are trying to do, that level of belief has gone the wayside and and most cases so has race, but we aren't there yet with sexual preferences.

In 21 states discrimination is the same thing whether you're talking about race or sexual orientation.

Message edited by author 2012-06-05 14:53:47.

rooum

06/05/2012 02:52:40 PM · #59

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by mike_311:
as an employee, my place of business cant force me to do something against my beliefs.

And if you're a white supremacist and the sole employee of a barber shop when a minority walks in...?

be serious, i see what you are trying to do, that level of belief has gone the wayside and and most cases so has race, but we aren't there yet with sexual preferences.

I'm just playing devils advocate here.

im sure a good lawyer could make a case, either way, that what i presented is discrimination or not. however i think its a pretty sticky situation to force a single employee, who happens to own a business, to follow business laws of discrimination if those laws on occasion violates one beliefs, especially when it involves something that isn't entirely accepted practice yet.

So, are you saying some forms of discrimination are more acceptable than others because they are more widespread?

06/05/2012 02:54:12 PM · #60

Originally posted by mike_311:

You can hold whatever beliefs you want. A business, has to operate within the bounds of the law. Your employer can't force you to do something contrary to your beliefs, you risk getting fired though. The sole proprietor as a person can hold whatever beliefs he wants and act accordingly as an individual, as a business he cannot without facing sanctions according to the law.

Message edited by author 2012-06-05 14:57:48.

06/05/2012 02:59:42 PM · #61

Originally posted by rooum:

So, are you saying some forms of discrimination are more acceptable than others because they are more widespread?

yes. currently.

acceptance is a slow moving process, people need to realize that. it usually take a new generation to grow up with it as opposed to the current one adapting to it.

Message edited by author 2012-06-05 15:00:35.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

06/05/2012 03:02:03 PM · #62

I think the law should be the last resort to settle such a dispute. It would be much better for the parties to work out their disagreements in an amicable way. Let's change it up.

The photographer is a staunch believer in animal rights. She's vegan. She's a card-carrying PETA member. A couple approaches her and asks her to shoot their Voodoo wedding which will feature a number of sacrificed chickens to bring fortune to the marriage. The law seems to say the photographer cannot back out based on the religious specifics of the ceremony (no discrimination based on religion). Instead she ought to be able to sit down and say, "hey, I will do your wedding, but I want to be up front and say I am very uncomfortable with killing the chickens. I will do my best, but it may affect my ability to shoot to the best of my skill (if I'm retching in the corner). I can refer you to a friend who doesn't have the same issue." The couple, I would think, should be gracious and accept the offer. First, you want good service, but, second, who would want to force someone to endure something they have an issue with?

The law could/would force the issue, but I don't think anybody is going to be happy with the results.

06/05/2012 03:02:04 PM · #63

Originally posted by Spork99:

exactly, so why not the distinction. if you can be incorporated to protect you from business liability why cant you be protected in your beliefs as well?

06/05/2012 03:03:14 PM · #64

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

or they could just sue and get publicity like other people do. the business owner is in a no win situation.

06/05/2012 03:07:50 PM · #65

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Spork99:

You can hold whatever beliefs you want. A business, has to operate within the bounds of the law. Your employer can't force you to do something contrary to your beliefs, you risk getting fired though. The sole proprietor as a person can hold whatever beliefs he wants and act accordingly as an individual, as a business he cannot without facing sanctions according to the law.

exactly, so why not the distinction. if you can be incorporated to protect you from business liability why cant you be protected in your beliefs as well?

You can still hold your beliefs. Your business cannot.

06/05/2012 03:09:19 PM · #66

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

The law seems to say the photographer cannot back out based on the religious specifics of the ceremony (no discrimination based on religion).

That's not how it works (and I'm not even sure animal sacrifice is a protected religious practice). If you're a Methodist photographer and refuse to shoot a wedding because they're Baptist, then you have a legal problem.

06/05/2012 03:12:29 PM · #67

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Spork99:

You can hold whatever beliefs you want. A business, has to operate within the bounds of the law. Your employer can't force you to do something contrary to your beliefs, you risk getting fired though. The sole proprietor as a person can hold whatever beliefs he wants and act accordingly as an individual, as a business he cannot without facing sanctions according to the law.

exactly, so why not the distinction. if you can be incorporated to protect you from business liability why cant you be protected in your beliefs as well?

You can still hold your beliefs. Your business cannot.

so when one owns their own business with no employees they automatically have to adjust their beliefs to being acceptable to everything?

06/05/2012 03:12:38 PM · #68

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think the law should be the last resort to settle such a dispute. It would be much better for the parties to work out their disagreements in an amicable way. Let's change it up.

The photographer is a staunch believer in animal rights. She's vegan. She's a card-carrying PETA member. A couple approaches her and asks her to shoot their Voodoo wedding which will feature a number of sacrificed chickens to bring fortune to the marriage. The law seems to say the photographer cannot back out based on the religious specifics of the ceremony (no discrimination based on religion). Instead she ought to be able to sit down and say, "hey, I will do your wedding, but I want to be up front and say I am very uncomfortable with killing the chickens. I will do my best, but it may affect my ability to shoot to the best of my skill (if I'm retching in the corner). I can refer you to a friend who doesn't have the same issue." The couple, I would think, should be gracious and accept the offer. First, you want good service, but, second, who would want to force someone to endure something they have an issue with?

The law could/would force the issue, but I don't think anybody is going to be happy with the results.

or they could just sue and get publicity like other people do. the business owner is in a no win situation.

So they should be able to put up a sign saying "No (insert minority group here: women, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, gays) served here because I find your existence repugnant"

06/05/2012 03:13:36 PM · #69

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Spork99:

You can hold whatever beliefs you want. A business, has to operate within the bounds of the law. Your employer can't force you to do something contrary to your beliefs, you risk getting fired though. The sole proprietor as a person can hold whatever beliefs he wants and act accordingly as an individual, as a business he cannot without facing sanctions according to the law.

exactly, so why not the distinction. if you can be incorporated to protect you from business liability why cant you be protected in your beliefs as well?

You can still hold your beliefs. Your business cannot.

so when one owns their own business with no employees they automatically have to adjust their beliefs to being acceptable to everything?

No, you can hold you personal beliefs, whatever they may be, but your business has to provide equal service to all.

06/05/2012 03:13:54 PM · #70

Originally posted by scalvert:

If you're a Methodist photographer and refuse to shoot a wedding because they're Baptist, then you have a legal problem.

but you shouldn't. the clientele should be accepting of your beliefs and not force you to accept theirs.

but we dont live in THAT world.

06/05/2012 03:15:15 PM · #71

Originally posted by Spork99:

So they should be able to put up a sign saying "No (insert minority group here: women, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, gays) served here because I find your existence repugnant"

no, they should just be able to politely decline service without fear of being sued.

06/05/2012 03:19:11 PM · #72

Originally posted by mike_311:

but you shouldn't. the clientele should be accepting of your beliefs and not force you to accept theirs.

They're not asking you to accept their beliefs. Just take their picture. You can't say, "This company doesn't take photos of Jews" whether you have 1 employee or 100. If a customer seeks your services while knowing that you disagree with their beliefs, who's really having the problem with acceptance?

Message edited by author 2012-06-05 15:31:29.