how could someone vote jacko's photo a 2

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

08/12/2004 11:18:11 AM · #126

I see it myself.

"While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly."

To me that means teh otherw aya round. i.e if the photo is stunning, don't go giving it a 10 if it has nothing what-so-ever to do with the challenge topic. That way DPC stops people from winning with random good landscape photographs for example.

It also says to vote: "in the challenge on a scale of 1 to 10 (with "1" being a "bad" photo and a "10" being a "good" photo)"

Which I do.

Can a SC please clarify this..I will feel pretty bad if i have been voting wrongly.

pbaarn

Nikon D300

08/12/2004 11:24:02 AM · #127

@MatrixReloaded:
I think the Bug picture is a very unimaginative picture in regard to this challenge. Macro? Uh...let's do a bugshot. If I would have to rate it apart from the challenge, it would get high marks for technical skills and for just being a darn fine image. Not my cup of tea and done to death, but still. If I had to rate it for the challenge I would rate it below 5. Why? Because obviously, this is a very skilled photographer (and I am not worthy of shining his shoes in that regard), yet he failed IMHO to use his imagination and really challenge himself. I for one am not here for the ribbons. I would be in over my head. I'm here for the challenge and I appreciate, through my rating, people who challenge themselves.
So, would I give it a 2? Yes, if this was the 2oth bug picture in a row or to express my disappointment at this waste of talent (again, only in regard to this challenge).
This is the way I see the challenge and the whole world can see it differently. As noted before, one vote makes a very small dent in the numbers. I would be very surprised if Jacko himself even cares about the two. It looks like it's only your problem.

08/12/2004 11:25:57 AM · #128

Originally posted by pbaarn:

yay a brave post. Now I don't feel like the only leper.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

08/12/2004 11:31:40 AM · #129

In the voting guidelines it says, "While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly."

While this doesn't impose a specific point value for meeting the challenge (nor could it), it does plainly indicate that a big part of the score should be based upon how well the image meets the challenge. For this shot, if a significant portion of the score is based on having three subjects, then you cannot in vote it a 2 in good faith. Reserve those 1 and 2 votes for pictures you don't like AND don't meet the challenge. There's always a few.

...and yes, Steve, if you can base 80 percent of your vote on personal taste alone, then you could give a high score to a photo that doesn't meet the challenge. As I said, it's the same logic.

pbaarn

Nikon D300

08/12/2004 11:34:17 AM · #130

@JonPink
I think you know there's nothing wrong with your voting. I think you see it exactly the right way. Otherwise I would have taken a crummy picture of three pencils in bad light, motion blurred and you would have had to rate that 5 or higher, because it fits the challenge. For me, if it doesn't fit the challenge: 1 or 2 or no vote if I feel sorry for the guy/gal. If it does fit the challenge: 1 - 10.
If people want to rate me down for the things I say, good luck to them. And the numbers don't mean a lot to me. I'm my own worst critic.

08/12/2004 11:36:02 AM · #131

Originally posted by jonpink:

Well, as an ex-SC I can say I completely agree with you. I give the utmost consideration to the challenge topic myself. If it doesn't meet the topic, then I think it should get a 0. Then, from the assumption that every image worth scoring meets the challenge, I then score from 1 to 10, on a 'bad' to 'good' scale.

As I can't give out 0's, I give 1s for those images that I feel are entirely off topic. Being on topic and not entirely terrible, might warrant a 2. But make no mistake about it, in this scheme, meeting the challenge is the highest consideration. In fact, it is the entry requirement to getting a score above 1.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

08/12/2004 11:37:59 AM · #132

Originally posted by scalvert:

While this doesn't impose a specific point value for meeting the challenge (nor could it), it does plainly indicate that a big part of the score should be based upon how well the image meets the challenge.

No, it does not plainly indicate that a big part of the score should be based on how well the image meets the challenge. That is your interpretation.

In fact, in the scheme I mentioned, meeting the challenge is required to get a score above 1. This is holding the challenge in an even higher regard than you do, in your particular approach to voting, IMO.

So yes: you've met the challenge. Congrats, now lets think about the score. Do I think this image is very good ? Is it original ? Do I like it ? '1' bad - '10' good. This is pretty much what the rules say - first and foremost - does it meet the challenge (highest consideration, after all) then vote it on a scale of '1' to '10'

The rules don't say for example vote on a scale of 1 to 10 on how well it meets the challenge, or only score over 5 if it meets the challenge, or don't drop under 5 for something that's on topic.

I feel inclined to challenge the people who've ever scored an image they felt was off topic higher than 1. What were you thinking ? Why weren't you holding the challenge in the highest regard. After all, it is in the rules...

Message edited by author 2004-08-12 11:41:31.

pbaarn

Nikon D300

08/12/2004 11:40:31 AM · #133

@scalvert:
How hard is it to do something with the challenge subject Threes? If you put three subjects in a shot, that earns you half a point in my book. The rest if for the image itself.
If the subject is less trivial, like Choices or Temptation, then finding something that is applicable to the subject earns a few more points in my book. And the more imaginative it is, the more points you earn. Think outside the box.

Message edited by author 2004-08-12 11:42:05.

Tamron SP AF 17-35mm f/2.8-4 Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

08/12/2004 11:41:49 AM · #134

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by jonpink:
I see it myself.

"While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly."

To me that means teh otherw aya round. i.e if the photo is stunning, don't go giving it a 10 if it has nothing what-so-ever to do with the challenge topic. That way DPC stops people from winning with random good landscape photographs for example.

It also says to vote: "in the challenge on a scale of 1 to 10 (with "1" being a "bad" photo and a "10" being a "good" photo)"

Which I do.

Can a SC please clarify this..I will feel pretty bad if i have been voting wrongly.

Well, as an ex-SC I can say I completely agree with you. I give the utmost consideration to the challenge topic myself. If it doesn't meet the topic, then I think it should get a 0. Then, from the assumption that every image worth scoring meets the challenge, I then score from 1 to 10, on a 'bad' to 'good' scale.

As I can't give out 0's, I give 1s for those images that I feel are entirely off topic. Being on topic and not entirely terrible, might warrant a 2. But make no mistake about it, in this scheme, meeting the challenge is the highest consideration. In fact, it is the entry requirement to getting a score above 1.

Thank you Mr. McGregor

bruski

Canon EOS-50D

08/12/2004 11:49:03 AM · #135

Originally posted by Gordon:

As I can't give out 0's, I give 1s for those images that I feel are entirely off topic. Being on topic and not entirely terrible, might warrant a 2. But make no mistake about it, in this scheme, meeting the challenge is the highest consideration. In fact, it is the entry requirement to getting a score above 1.

I had just thought of this same thing just before I got to your post. Here we are talking about giving 5+ scores to the images that are on topic, when infact all of the images should be on topic if they are entered into any of the challenges. "Does not meet challenge" really shouldn't exist. Maybe if we need to change anything it should be adding a 0 to the grading scale. Then if it is off topic it gets a 0. Then the 1-10 scale is reserved for those that meet the challenge.

MatrixReloaded

Sony DSC-F828

08/12/2004 11:53:03 AM · #136

Originally posted by pbaarn:

"It looks like it's only your problem"
there are others that feel as I do (wandering why it got a 2)
I know he does not care if it got a 2 (thats not a problem for me)
Read the pages I have tried to end this with respect to everyone.
If you want to be a smart ass it's your right I really don't care.It shows how big someone is behind a keyboard.you said (So, would I give it a 2? Yes, if this was the 2oth bug picture in a row or to express my disappointment at this waste of talent )
I say...waste of talent...I don't think so, why Because I can not take that photo and make it look that good.Admin...please close this topic....lol it will never end.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

08/12/2004 11:53:55 AM · #137

Yup nice idea. I am very lenient with my judging as to whether a photo meets the challenge or not - allowing for a large scope of personal interpretation.

But for those few images that are plainly nothing to do with the challenge, I would take great enjoyment at dishing out a big fat zero :D

A -1 may be nice too :D

peecee

Canon EOS-5D

08/12/2004 11:57:00 AM · #138

For what it is worth my view is this: The challenge gives you a subject, to partake in this challenge one has to submit a picture that involves this subject in some way, shape or form, simple isn't it?
So the voting should in my opinion, be reflective not only of the quality of the picture, but the relation to the challenge subject.
If we all ignored the challenge rules we would end up with a free challenge every time.
As for the bugs, not everyone has taken shots of bugs, they are a damn sight harder to get right than an inanimimate object, and a challenge to get right in itself.
Just because we have seen many bug shots from Jacko doesn't detract from the immense skill involved in taking them,and he is more than willing to help us people who hope someday to emulate his success.
There, I've had my say, sorry it was rather a mouthful.
Paul.

08/12/2004 11:59:07 AM · #139

OK Gordon, then answer this... you've got two images to vote on and for some personal reason you hate them both, but one of them meets the challenge perfectly. We don't have a 0 to give out. Do they both get a 1 even though one of them obviously put some effort into meeting the challenge? That hardly seems fair.

I maintain that the thought and creativity put into an entry meeting the challenge should count for something. That is the purpose of basing a vote partly in consideration of the challenge topic. As a rebuttal to your comment, neither does the statement ask you to "throw out all off-topic entries as outside the 1-10 scale we are given, then assume that the remainder meet the challenge equally and vote on personal taste alone."

Message edited by author 2004-08-12 12:02:30.

08/12/2004 12:03:21 PM · #140

Originally posted by scalvert:

OK Gordon, then answer this... you've got two images to vote on and for some personal reason you hate them both, but one of them meets the challenge perfectly. We don't have a 0 to give out. Do they both get a 1 even though one of them obviously put some effort into meeting the challenge? That hardly seems fair.

I maintain that the thought and creativity put into an entry meeting the challenge should count for something. That is the purpose of basing a vote on the challenge topic. As a rebuttal to your comment, neither does the statement ask you to "throw out all off-topic entries, then assume that the remainder meet the challenge equally and vote on personal taste alone."

I am not Gordon, but can i put my 2 pence worth in?

They would both get 1's from me. The whole 'rule' if you like is to take a picture that meets what is set out in the challenge. That's the point, it should be standard, it shouldn't be rewarded.

I am bad at analogy's but by your thinking if a football team turned up in the correct football attire they should automatically get a 1 goal lead because they at least bothered to have the effort to dress correctly.

08/12/2004 12:14:07 PM · #141

Not at all, Jon. I'm saying that meeting the challenge isn't a yes-or-no ticket to enter, which is then discarded for the voting. How WELL an image meets the challenge is part of the consideration. A team that brings gear appropriate to the game has at least put forth a little more effort than a team that doesn't care, right?

Message edited by author 2004-08-12 12:19:01.

08/12/2004 12:15:06 PM · #142

Originally posted by scalvert:

If I personally hate them both ? Then the on topic one gets a 10. If a picture is good enough to inspire hatred, that's a high score in my book. I'd be extremely happy to create an image that could inspire that much feeling in anyone.

The bland, insipid and uninspired shots get the 1s and 2s from me. Though again, I'm not saying you should vote like me, but recognise that my voting is not trolling, nor is it ignoring the rules, or ignoring the purpose of the challenge. Meeting the challenge is paramount (though I usually have quite a loose definition of what meets the challenge). If you don't make it through that gate of meeting the challenge, you get a 1. Then we start thinking about if the picture is any good or not.

But to answer the real thrust of your question. Two bland, boring images, one that meets the challenge, one that doesn't meet the challenge. They both get 1s. I'm sorry I can't give lower scores. I'm sorry that you think that is unfair. But there are 300 images, and only 10 scoring levels. Some images get grouped, roughly 30 to a level if you vote in an even way, on a reasonably well populated challenge.

How about the 30 or so images you rate as a '5' is it fair that you bunch them all together too ? Of course it is.

Message edited by author 2004-08-12 12:20:22.

08/12/2004 12:18:19 PM · #143

Gordon- LOL

So... bad image, doesn't meet challenge (1) = bad image, meets challenge superbly (1)? Yikes.

Message edited by author 2004-08-12 12:23:44.

08/12/2004 12:19:30 PM · #144

Originally posted by scalvert:

I maintain that the thought and creativity put into an entry meeting the challenge should count for something.

It does count for something. You now qualify to be considered for a score above 1. This does not mean you will get it. It does mean that the highest consideration in my voting is meeting the challenge.

Message edited by author 2004-08-12 12:19:54.

08/12/2004 12:22:37 PM · #145

Originally posted by scalvert:

As a rebuttal to your comment, neither does the statement ask you to "throw out all off-topic entries as outside the 1-10 scale we are given, then assume that the remainder meet the challenge equally and vote on personal taste alone."

That's not a rebuttal. That's an acknowledgement of my point. It doesn't say what I do is wrong, nor does it say what you do is wrong.

It is deliberately open to interpretation (and I say this as someone who has helped frame the definition)

08/12/2004 12:25:15 PM · #146

Just out of interest Scalvert, how many points do you assign to an image that meets the challenge before you even start thinking about it's photographic merits?

digistoune

Canon EOS-20D

08/12/2004 12:27:10 PM · #147

Oh good Lord! Don't ya'll have pictures to take or something? Somebody gave Jacko's photo a 2 because they didn't like it. Jacko is a talented guy and obviously his scores aren't suffering so the merit of a 6 page discussion on this "criminal act" is beyond me.

08/12/2004 12:30:24 PM · #148

Originally posted by scalvert:

Gordon- LOL

So... bad image, doesn't meet challenge (1) = bad image, meets challenge superbly (1)? Yikes.

Except that I'd argue that what you've defined is contradictory. I've never seen an image that superbly meets the challenge that I'd consider a terribly bad image.

You can't meet the challenge superbly if the image is crap. So your question is meaningless.

Week to week, there is only probably one image at most that in my mind I'd consider 'meeting the challenge superbly' Often I don't see any. There is a difference to simply meeting the challenge, in a check box kind of way, and nailing it right on the head, in my own little view, perfectly typifying and exemplifying everything about that challenge theme.

A shot that happens to be macro, does not for example meet the challenge of 'macro' superbly. It meets the challenge. Great. Does it capture the essence of what macro is about ? Depends. Does it connect with me and resonate such that I can only think about the idea of macro when I look at it ? Then we might talk about superb.

Message edited by author 2004-08-12 12:30:55.

08/12/2004 12:30:48 PM · #149

I would like to know how Jacko votes ;)