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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> how could someone vote jacko's photo a 2
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08/11/2004 04:09:06 PM · #1
Just a question..I have been looking at some of the best photos on this site and I can't believe some of the votes..a 2 on jacko's winning photo.A 2 on strangeghost winning photo..it goes on.I mean really there shouldn't have been even a 3 on either of these two photos no matter what taste people have.I really think if your going to vote you should have to leave a comment because it blows my mind how a 2 could be taged to these photos or any of the others I have seen..lol
edited for spelling

Message edited by author 2004-08-11 16:17:47.
08/11/2004 04:22:28 PM · #2
I think some people try to vote low on the good photos thinking it will hinder them in the end. But if they thought sensibly about it they would realize that they effect the vote by about .005 points, depending on how many votes their are.

I think this especially happens on the open challenges.
08/11/2004 04:27:51 PM · #3
... or maybe they didn't like it ?
08/11/2004 04:29:28 PM · #4
Maybe the voter couldn't find the IV Macaroons in the shot.
08/11/2004 04:31:12 PM · #5
Originally posted by Gordon:

... or maybe they didn't like it ?


how could anyone...as I stated above (there shouldn't have been even a 3 on either of these two photos no matter what taste people have) the quality and it meeting the subject is worth a 5 if someone didn't like it..lol
08/11/2004 04:31:51 PM · #6
If it were that simple I would agree. The problem is that trollers do not smack all images. It goes something like this. They have an entry and they troll those images which they feel will beat them. The reason I say this, is that a voter registered me a one. Was even kind to leave a comment. After the event, I see this member giving high praise and promising a seven to an image that ended near the bottom. Of course, you can argue that maybe he dealt them also a one, but he has nothing to lose. Remember, he has to offset his marks to avoid having 2.1 voting average.

You see, we have all been around the block and we all pretty well know what is right and wrong. One popular troller puts it this way, "I vote my one's and two and that is my business and then I give images that are to my taste 7's. I do not vote with the pack."

Well, decypher this and it means. I hit down the good images and bring up the others. Because when you say that you do not vote with the pack, you do not know what the pack is voting ! What he means is that he does not vote fair on good images.

The problem is that none of us were born yesterday...you can argue subjectivity, but no one can justify the ones' and twos. We have all seen superp images get hammered with these ones' and twos'. Consider a top notch lit photo in good focus and good composition...well even those who may hate the subject will at least give a begrudging 4 or a 5.

It is simple trollers are protecting their interest by attacking images which may beat them. There is a simple way to prove this..their records are permanent with the DPC archives. But then, this will tend to develop a bad relationship. Instead, I say, eliminate the vested interest and you solve the problem.

08/11/2004 04:32:48 PM · #7
This type of thread has gone on before... no real solution or answer is found.

Be it as it may, voters vote as voters vote!

-danny
08/11/2004 04:33:39 PM · #8
maybe they saw 100 other bug photos before this one and were just getting bored of them.
08/11/2004 04:35:55 PM · #9
So, if I flat out don't like a picture, but it is well-lit, focused, good colors (or tonal range), I have to give it a 5? I don't think so. Voting is subjective. Very subjective.

Ya know, I'm not all that great in math, but it seems that it would take a substantial amount of the so-called troll votes to really effect the overall score. It might effect the shots in the middle, but it didn't keep the winners from placing, now did it?

I have yet, in a long time at dpc, to see one shot get a blue ribbon that in some form or fashion didn't deserve it (even if I didn't like it!), and likewise, I have yet to see a brown ribbon (including my own) who's result blows my mind.
08/11/2004 04:41:46 PM · #10
Thanks graphicfunk and everyone else...I'm new...gotta get use to (people are different..lol) even when it comes to a great photo.
08/11/2004 04:41:54 PM · #11
Originally posted by graphicfunk:

If it were that simple I would agree. The problem is that trollers do not smack all images. It goes something like this. They have an entry and they troll those images which they feel will beat them. The reason I say this, is that a voter registered me a one. Was even kind to leave a comment. After the event, I see this member giving high praise and promising a seven to an image that ended near the bottom. Of course, you can argue that maybe he dealt them also a one, but he has nothing to lose. Remember, he has to offset his marks to avoid having 2.1 voting average.

You see, we have all been around the block and we all pretty well know what is right and wrong. One popular troller puts it this way, "I vote my one's and two and that is my business and then I give images that are to my taste 7's. I do not vote with the pack."

Well, decypher this and it means. I hit down the good images and bring up the others. Because when you say that you do not vote with the pack, you do not know what the pack is voting ! What he means is that he does not vote fair on good images.

The problem is that none of us were born yesterday...you can argue subjectivity, but no one can justify the ones' and twos. We have all seen superp images get hammered with these ones' and twos'. Consider a top notch lit photo in good focus and good composition...well even those who may hate the subject will at least give a begrudging 4 or a 5.

It is simple trollers are protecting their interest by attacking images which may beat them. There is a simple way to prove this..their records are permanent with the DPC archives. But then, this will tend to develop a bad relationship. Instead, I say, eliminate the vested interest and you solve the problem.


So you'd suggest a voting scheme that runs from say 5 to 6 ? or 5 to 10 ?

It seems from your argument that no image could ever warrant a score below 4. Once more, the voting scale is Good - Bad.

Not 'good as I interpret good and everyone has to interpret it the same way or they are a troll' There are plenty of images hanging in galleries that I'd vote a '1' on if I saw them here. There are plenty of images that win here, that I've personally scored below 3.

Should I suddenly be run off the site for having an opinion that differs from yours ?

Message edited by author 2004-08-11 16:43:00.
08/11/2004 04:44:16 PM · #12
It could have been as simple as that same style and look won a macro competition already and the voter wanted to see something "new and different". But like everyone else said, no one will really know what goes into someone elses voting unless they tell us, but even then you won't know if they are lying or not.
08/11/2004 04:51:09 PM · #13
I think Daniel is just stating the obvious. How can anyone really justify a 1 or 2 on a technically sound image that very obviously meets the challenge just by saying it's not to their taste? That would imply that personal taste is the only real consideration and the other elements are trivial.
08/11/2004 04:57:29 PM · #14
Originally posted by scalvert:

I think Daniel is just stating the obvious. How can anyone really justify a 1 or 2 on a technically sound image that very obviously meets the challenge just by saying it's not to their taste? That would imply that personal taste is the only real consideration and the other elements are trivial.


There is nothing whatsoever in the rules or voter guidelines that suggests that that is not a valid and reasonable way to vote.

To start voting on photos, click the first thumbnail. Then, rate each photograph on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the best. You may always stop and continue voting at a later time. You do not need to enter a photo in order to be able to vote.

Nothing to say that 'best' or 'worst' has to be on technical merit, subjective originality, most shocking, most boring, or anything. This is a good thing. Everyone brings their own particular interpretation of what 'good' and 'bad' means - and the better images based on the popularity across a cross section of the users, wins.

Assuming everyone should vote the same way, or be removed from the site, in an artistic community strikes me as a bit odd.

I can think of several perfectly valid reasons to give Jacko's picture a low score. It is almost a straight copy of what won the previous macro challenge. It woud be easy to assume that you would look at the Macro II results and vote down anything that just repeated the previous winning shot as completely unoriginal, for example.

Personally I like the shot (both of them) I recognise how hard they are to do well. Effort in some cases influences my voting, but normally I don't care about what was involved to making an image.
However, it isn't entirely impossible to believe that you could vote simply on originality. In that case, Jacko's (in my view great) winning shot, is well down the list towards completely derivative, even within this site. Maybe a +1 for rotating the subject - bumping the score up to 2...

Macro II winner
38963.jpg

Macro IV winner
93797.jpg

Is the Macro VI winner going to be a close up head shot of a dragonfly tilted 45 degrees the other way ?

Message edited by author 2004-08-11 17:18:40.
08/11/2004 04:58:36 PM · #15
I don`t think that the problem being complained about here rests with SINGLE votes and peoples right to determine what score they allocate to an image.. of course everyone is entitled to see things differently and thank heavens they do.
The problem arises with people who return these kind of scores as the norm to what they perceive as potentially high scoring images and then dish out high scores to images at the lower end of the challenge.
They do that for a purpose that only they know about..however, I disagree that it can be ignored because of the minor effect it will have on an images score. It should not be able to stop a good picture from doing well but it almost certainly can have an effect on it`s placing. How often do we see images placed with only a tiny fraction of a percentage between them ?
We have argued for 7 pages on a thread about the "potential" harm of posting out-takes before and during challenges as though it has a major effect..yet we choose to ignore this behaviour which most certainly does have an effect.
08/11/2004 04:58:37 PM · #16
As crabappl3 stated, this has been beat to deith quite a few times. As I've stated more than once in those threads, if you take a totally impersonal approach, that is, you do not try to ge into the "mind of the voter" but ust look at the numbers, the statistics will tell you that there are really very few true "troll votes", and that even pretty darn good images should be expected to get a few 2s and even the occasional 1.
Every time I've done an analysis, I've come back with this same conclusion. Voters are individuals, that is why the standard deviation for an image tends to run in the range of 2.5, meaning that voting will normally span nearly the whole range. Just my mathematical 2 cents.
08/11/2004 05:03:49 PM · #17
Originally posted by Gordon:



Assuming everyone should vote the same way, or be removed from the site, in an artistic community strikes me as a bit odd.

I can think of several perfectly valid reasons to give Jacko's picture a low score. It is almost a straight copy of what won the previous macro challenge. It woud be easy to assume that you would look at the Macro III results and vote down anything that just repeated the previous winning shot as completely unoriginal, for example.


I don't know if I would say that this is an artistic community in the sense that any artsy images always seem to get voted down. Or at least I would say that the majority is not found of artsy things.

The same thought came to my mind as well. Why should the same looking picture win every time? I am sure many people vote with this in mind.

Message edited by author 2004-08-11 17:04:22.
08/11/2004 05:04:10 PM · #18
Originally posted by scalvert:

I think Daniel is just stating the obvious. How can anyone really justify a 1 or 2 on a technically sound image that very obviously meets the challenge just by saying it's not to their taste? That would imply that personal taste is the only real consideration and the other elements are trivial.

I totally agree. I seldom if ever give as low as a three! But to give Jacko`s shot lower than an 7 is a crime IMO ! How are people judging pictures. IMO there should be a filter to get rid of 1`s and 2`s, I would only give this mark if I was offended by the picture!
Neil

Message edited by author 2004-08-11 17:04:53.
08/11/2004 05:05:54 PM · #19
Originally posted by Dim7:


I totally agree. I seldom if ever give as low as a three! But to give Jacko`s shot lower than an 7 is a crime IMO ! How are people judging pictures. IMO there should be a filter to get rid of 1`s and 2`s, I would only give this mark if I was offended by the picture!
Neil


We should have a parallel thread on inflationary voters...


08/11/2004 05:09:11 PM · #20
Originally posted by Gordon:



There are plenty of images hanging in galleries that I'd vote a '1' on if I saw them here. There are plenty of images that win here, that I've personally scored below 3.

Should I suddenly be run off the site for having an opinion that differs from yours ?


run of the site...no
leave a comment as to why you gave great photo a 1 or 2...I think so.
it's like this...for me anyway.If I had a great photo,it won the challenge..but I see a vote of a 1 or 2.If I knew why I got that vote I could possably change something to have a perfect photo.
08/11/2004 05:09:47 PM · #21
Originally posted by Dim7:

I totally agree. I seldom if ever give as low as a three! But to give Jacko`s shot lower than an 7 is a crime IMO ! How are people judging pictures. IMO there should be a filter to get rid of 1`s and 2`s, I would only give this mark if I was offended by the picture!
Neil


You must give a LOT of 4's though .........the average vote you give is 4.4702.
08/11/2004 05:10:06 PM · #22
Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by Dim7:


I totally agree. I seldom if ever give as low as a three! But to give Jacko`s shot lower than an 7 is a crime IMO ! How are people judging pictures. IMO there should be a filter to get rid of 1`s and 2`s, I would only give this mark if I was offended by the picture!
Neil


We should have a parallel thread on inflationary voters...

Thats me inflated but I used to be a deflationary, I have seen the light! LOL
My average vote cast used to be in the low 3`s It is slowly going up!

Message edited by author 2004-08-11 17:14:59.
08/11/2004 05:10:22 PM · #23
As Gordon said, it`s to be expected that there will be people with genuine reasons for voting low on a picture that the majority would reckon to be an excellent one. So we will always see a few ones and twos on these images.
It would be interesting, however, to see if placings remained the same and also how many ones and twos would appear on them if the "algorithm" was not applied at the end of a challenge.
08/11/2004 05:12:45 PM · #24
Originally posted by geewhy:

As Gordon said, it`s to be expected that there will be people with genuine reasons for voting low on a picture that the majority would reckon to be an excellent one. So we will always see a few ones and twos on these images.
It would be interesting, however, to see if placings remained the same and also how many ones and twos would appear on them if the "algorithm" was not applied at the end of a challenge.

I am sure that the placings would remain the same by far the majority does not vote good pics down!
08/11/2004 05:15:40 PM · #25
I am sure each of us always ask that question. Why did someone give my entry a 1 ?? It's not just about the winning image. That's just how people vote.
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