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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> 41 Megapixels on a nokia phone
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02/27/2012 02:43:43 PM · #1
Get rid of your shitty canons and nikons, here is nokia 808 pureview
//mashable.com/2012/02/27/nokia-808-pureview-photos/
//europe.nokia.com/find-products/devices/nokia-808-pureview

Message edited by author 2012-02-27 14:52:33.
02/27/2012 03:15:13 PM · #2
I think I'll keep my canon
02/27/2012 03:35:31 PM · #3
they better learn to update the storage capacity on these phones.
02/27/2012 03:47:28 PM · #4
it said that you could put a 48gb card in... but yes, bigger would be better

thats insanity though...
02/27/2012 03:56:12 PM · #5
This isn't quite making sense to me due to pixel densities and the cost of chips. I don't think it's a true 41mp... there's something else going on here I think.
02/27/2012 04:05:58 PM · #6
Sounds like the perfect phone to team up with those amazing "Scalado" products.
02/27/2012 04:19:20 PM · #7
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

This isn't quite making sense to me due to pixel densities and the cost of chips. I don't think it's a true 41mp... there's something else going on here I think.


Quite possibly. But is is within the range of possibility. A 41 Mpx sensor with an aspect ratio of 1.33 equates to images of about 7400x5550 px. If we assume that the sensor has dimensions approximately similar to a P&S camera (about a 5x crop factor) we wind up with a 7.2mm by 4.8mm sensor, and that in turn gives just under a 1.0µm pixel pitch.
That's tiny, no doubt. But it is probably not unworkably tiny, especially if it is back-illuminated and the active pixel area approaches 100% of the sensor surface.
The two other concerns are the processing overhead and memory requirements. The former is no problem; modern smart phones have plenty of processing power. The second merely requires a large memory card. We're talking JPEG files here; I doubt it would have RAW capability. So the per-image file size might be on the order of 12-15MB. You don't need a boatload of storage at that size.
What's interesting about this is whether it can restore Nokia's flat-lined pulse in the smartphone arena.
02/27/2012 04:34:52 PM · #8
In the BBC vid the Nokia rep mentions something about a '5 megapixel photo' from the 41mp sensor chip.

Originally posted by kirbic:

What's interesting about this is whether it can restore Nokia's flat-lined pulse in the smartphone arena.

No, because they put it on Symbian...

Message edited by author 2012-02-27 16:36:06.
02/27/2012 04:40:13 PM · #9
Originally posted by JH:

In the BBC vid the Nokia rep mentions something about a '5 megapixel photo' from the 41mp sensor chip.

Originally posted by kirbic:

What's interesting about this is whether it can restore Nokia's flat-lined pulse in the smartphone arena.

No, because they put it on Symbian...


Yeah, and if you pause that video for the actual phone on the Europe site, it's got options for a 8mp, 5mp, and 2mp. That's part of why I think there's something going on. Pause @ 26 sec.

Message edited by author 2012-02-27 16:40:40.
02/27/2012 04:41:47 PM · #10
Originally posted by JH:

In the BBC vid the Nokia rep mentions something about a '5 megapixel photo' from the 41mp sensor chip.


Yep, I think it's all just marketing fluff. They appear to be using a 41MP sensor just to do some internal noise reduction and spit out a 5MP image. It probably gets an image that's near equivalent to a native 5MP image when it comes to noise, but they get to hype it as a 41MP camera. It also allows them to do digital zoom while still producing a 5MP image.
02/27/2012 05:44:08 PM · #11
Originally posted by bhuge:

Yep, I think it's all just marketing fluff. They appear to be using a 41MP sensor just to do some internal noise reduction and spit out a 5MP image.

Originally posted by Nokia:

Supported aspect ratios and resolutions True 16:9 (2 MP, 5 MP [Default], 8 MP, 41 MP) 4:3 (3 MP, 5 MP, 8 MP, 41 MP)

I guess the 41mpx is their "raw" file...
(from //europe.nokia.com/find-products/devices/nokia-808-pureview/specifications)
02/27/2012 06:03:31 PM · #12
From the Specifications page on the Nokia site:
- Focal length: 8.02 mm (35 mm equivalent focal length -26 mm, 16:9 / 28 mm, 4:3)
- Auto focus and touch to focus
- Focus modes: Hyperfocal, Macro, Infinity and Auto
- Focus range: 15 cm ~ infinity
- Macro focus 15-50 cm
- F number/aperture: F2.4
- Supported aspect ratios and resolutions True 16:9 (2 MP, 5 MP [Default], 8 MP, 41 MP) 4:3 (3 MP, 5 MP, 8 MP, 41 MP)


The 8.02mm actual focal length equating to 28mm in 35mm terms means that the actual ratio of sensor size to 35mm is around 3.5, giving a sensor longest dimension of about 10mm. That is *really* big for a 'phone camera, if it is in fact true. The 5MPx setting appears to be a default, perhaps to save space.
Keep in mind that there can be good reasons for engineering a system to over-sample. Assuming the optics are up to it, a down-sampled high-Mpx image will always beat an image acquired at lower resolution. For one thing you are effectively sampling all colors at 8 bits. You're also averaging out some noise (fixed pattern noise that is; it's a zero-sum game when considering shot noise).
02/27/2012 06:05:56 PM · #13
Originally posted by JH:


No, because they put it on Symbian...


Yep, that makes me scratch my head. They signed on with Microsoft to offer Windows 'phones, so you can read the writing on the wall for Symbian OS, yet here they are trotting out yet another Symbian 'phone. WTH?

Message edited by author 2012-02-27 18:07:43.
02/27/2012 06:22:29 PM · #14
Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by JH:


No, because they put it on Symbian...


Yep, that makes me scratch my head. They signed on with Microsoft to offer Windows 'phones, so you can read the writing on the wall for Symbian OS, yet here they are trotting out yet another Symbian 'phone. WTH?

I always get a feeling that Nokia aren't 100% committed to the Windows platform. The Lumia 900 is the first good smartphone Nokia have produced on Windows. They should be flooding the market with it. I don't know what they're delaying for, it's bad enough they have to play catch-up.

And this sensor chip could have been the 'killer feature' for them. Put that in a Lumia 900 on Windows, and they've really got something to boast about. It's a strange situation. Although there have been boardroom re-shuffles in Nokia while they've abandoned various OS strategies that haven't quite worked out.
02/27/2012 06:24:28 PM · #15
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

I think I'll keep my canon Nikon


+1000
03/02/2012 09:04:05 PM · #16
Have you seen this video? He claims there is no upsampling, and further, that the lens outresolves SLR lenses by a factor of 10. Now, I have a feeling this is all marketing speak. Has anybody seen the dimensions for the chip?

Also, note that he says their zoom is "lossless," but we all know from his description that it's actually just cropping, which is, obviously, not lossless in the greater scheme of things.

ETA: Also, I think he said in the video it was F2.0 but the spec sheet above says 2.4?

Message edited by author 2012-03-02 21:10:04.
03/03/2012 12:33:32 PM · #17
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Has anybody seen the dimensions for the chip?

"The Nokia PureView Pro comes is equipped with an even larger sensor, 1/1.2"
//europe.nokia.com/PRODUCT_METADATA_0/Products/Phones/8000-series/808/Nokia808PureView_Whitepaper.pdf
03/03/2012 01:53:36 PM · #18
Originally posted by hanserik:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Has anybody seen the dimensions for the chip?

"The Nokia PureView Pro comes is equipped with an even larger sensor, 1/1.2"
//europe.nokia.com/PRODUCT_METADATA_0/Products/Phones/8000-series/808/Nokia808PureView_Whitepaper.pdf


Something seems fishy. 1/1.2" would be about the same size as a micro 4/3 camera. I don't know how you would cram that into a phone.

Their pixel size is 1.4 micron, with an area of 7728x5368 that comes out to about a third of the surface area that a 1/1.2" sensor would be.

Maybe I'm missing something or my calculations are off :/
03/03/2012 02:00:59 PM · #19
Originally posted by bhuge:

Something seems fishy. 1/1.2" would be about the same size as a micro 4/3 camera. I don't know how you would cram that into a phone.


Take a look here. It is a big sensor. Not as large as µ4/3, but bigger than almost all P&S cameras.
03/03/2012 02:42:26 PM · #20
Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by bhuge:

Something seems fishy. 1/1.2" would be about the same size as a micro 4/3 camera. I don't know how you would cram that into a phone.


Take a look here. It is a big sensor. Not as large as µ4/3, but bigger than almost all P&S cameras.


I must be confused with how they measure these sensors. I assumed 1/1.2" was the diagonal, which would be the same as a µ4/3. But it does look like I was right about it being a bout 1/3 the area of a µ4/3.

Still a huge sensor for a phone!
03/03/2012 03:56:24 PM · #21
so what happens when the lens get filled with smudges and pocket lint?

03/03/2012 05:54:03 PM · #22
Originally posted by mike_311:

so what happens when the lens get filled with smudges and pocket lint?

You clean it?

(sorry, couldn't help it)
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