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01/26/2012 08:17:11 AM · #1 |
so i recently went out to a bridge site for work. The job was to take "after" photos of a recent rehab the company oversaw. i took pictures with a company camera, however I also brought along MY camera and took photos for my personally collection. I processed them on my own time watermarked them and uploaded the to internet. I was showing them them to a co-worker who happens to work in marketing and he loved them. However he didn't explicitly say he wanted to use them but he wondered why i watermarked them as my own. I had just assumed since i took them with MY camera, they were mine.
So do I own the rights to the photos since i used my camera? or does the company own them since i was on the clock at the time to take photos of this bridge, even though I processed them at home on my own time.
Since i would not have had access to or even been able to take these pictures without working at the time, if i do own the right i dont really care to allow the company to use them (this time), however i dont want to set a precedent for the future that they will expect me to use my personal gear to get me to photograph bridges for them for marketing purposes.
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01/26/2012 08:57:06 AM · #2 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
so i recently went out to a bridge site for work. The job was to take "after" photos of a recent rehab the company oversaw. i took pictures with a company camera, however I also brought along MY camera and took photos for my personally collection. I processed them on my own time watermarked them and uploaded the to internet. I was showing them them to a co-worker who happens to work in marketing and he loved them. However he didn't explicitly say he wanted to use them but he wondered why i watermarked them as my own. I had just assumed since i took them with MY camera, they were mine.
So do I own the rights to the photos since i used my camera? or does the company own them since i was on the clock at the time to take photos of this bridge, even though I processed them at home on my own time.
Since i would not have had access to or even been able to take these pictures without working at the time, if i do own the right i dont really care to allow the company to use them (this time), however i dont want to set a precedent for the future that they will expect me to use my personal gear to get me to photograph bridges for them for marketing purposes. |
I think the two areas I highlighted in bold above is the key here. 1) If you were not working you would not have been able to take the pictures, and 2) you were on company time. Depending if you have a contract with your employer that has a clause about the above, it's going to be a grey area.
Kinda reminds me when I first started working for RS in the early 90's before the age of 900Mhz home phones. Even before most cordless phones; good ones at least. It was rumored that an employee of the company thought it would be a good idea to have a cordless phone with no speaker or mic, just a headset. At which time RS (and as far as I know), no other company had one at the time. This employee, being skilled in electronics, drew out the plans and successfully built such a phone. RS got word and and claimed to own the rights to the phone. There were some legal battle, how much I don't know but since that time and up to this day, within the hiring paperwork is a clause that states the following. "If an employee invents any product while employed at RS, on or off the clock, the product invented is considered property of RS."
Note: RS is the company initials.
Message edited by author 2012-01-26 09:20:40.
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01/26/2012 09:08:40 AM · #3 |
Unless you specifically signed a work-for-hire contract with your company, and doing photography is one of your normal job duties, then you own the copyright to your pictures, taken with your camera.
The pictures you took with their camera, are probably technically still yours, but I wouldn't fight that fight. It's not worth it, and you really took them with the expectation that they belonged to the company.
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01/26/2012 09:10:49 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
so i recently went out to a bridge site for work. The job was to take "after" photos of a recent rehab the company oversaw. i took pictures with a company camera, however I also brought along MY camera and took photos for my personally collection. I processed them on my own time watermarked them and uploaded the to internet. I was showing them them to a co-worker who happens to work in marketing and he loved them. However he didn't explicitly say he wanted to use them but he wondered why i watermarked them as my own. I had just assumed since i took them with MY camera, they were mine.
So do I own the rights to the photos since i used my camera? or does the company own them since i was on the clock at the time to take photos of this bridge, even though I processed them at home on my own time.
Since i would not have had access to or even been able to take these pictures without working at the time, if i do own the right i dont really care to allow the company to use them (this time), however i dont want to set a precedent for the future that they will expect me to use my personal gear to get me to photograph bridges for them for marketing purposes. |
Originally posted by SDW:
I think the two areas I highlighted in bold above is the key here. 1) If you were not working you would not have been able to take the pictures, and 2) you were on company time. Depending if you have a contract with your employer that has a clause about the above, it's going to be a grey area. |
Seems pretty straightforward to me......you were on company time, and would not have had access without the permission of the company, plus.....that's why you were sent out in the first place, right?
It seems to me that *your* pictures were taken without permission, and you could be liable for damages for piracy if they wanted to make a fuss about it.....
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01/26/2012 09:13:18 AM · #5 |
i dont have a contract to take pictures. I needed to get photos of the bridge for a report we had to submit. Normally when i take photos its to document conditions so that we can refer to them during design and use them when building reports, marketing usually make a point to ask us to get site photos for their use in future work that they use to use as backgrounds for renderings. However since I usually use company equipment on company time the company owns the rights and marketing can use those images how they please.
However since i used an ultra wide lens and a camera with way more resolving power they never would be able to get the photos I got, so I feel I should at least own part of if not all the rights.
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01/26/2012 09:14:38 AM · #6 |
The law is pretty clear, if you were on the job, it belongs to the company.
A "work made for hire" is— (1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or (2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a contribution to a collective work, as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, as a translation, as a supplementary work, as a compilation, as an instructional text, as a test, as answer material for a test, or as an atlas, if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire. (17 U.S.C. § 101)
It doesn't matter what equipment you used.
Message edited by author 2012-01-26 09:15:20. |
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01/26/2012 09:17:02 AM · #7 |
| When I worked for the US Forest Service I was flown on the governments dime to a bear viewing site to familiarize myself with it so I could provide good info to visitors at the visitors center I worked at. I brought my camera with me to take photos for myself, but it was explained that I couldn't try to sell them since they were taken while I was on the clock. They weren't claiming ownership of them IIRC so this is a somewhat different situation, but it sounds like its definitely a grey area to me. |
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01/26/2012 09:20:27 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It seems to me that *your* pictures were taken without permission, and you could be liable for damages for piracy if they wanted to make a fuss about it..... |
Its is a public structure and i "could" have legally gotten them myself, as could anyone else, had i really wanted to, it was just more convenient for me to take them for myself since i was already there.
I'm really more concerned how to protect myself, since i got the impression that marketing may want me to offer do this on future trips to other bridges. I'd be happy to oblige if they provide the gear, but if I'm using my camera i want to maintain the rights even if i grant them limited use.
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01/26/2012 09:28:57 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
i dont have a contract to take pictures. I needed to get photos of the bridge for a report we had to submit. Normally when i take photos its to document conditions so that we can refer to them during design and use them when building reports, marketing usually make a point to ask us to get site photos for their use in future work that they use to use as backgrounds for renderings. However since I usually use company equipment on company time the company owns the rights and marketing can use those images how they please.
However since i used an ultra wide lens and a camera with way more resolving power they never would be able to get the photos I got, so I feel I should at least own part of if not all the rights. |
If I am understanding you correctly instead of using company equipment you decided (on your own??) to use your equipment that produced a better photograph. Your decision to use your equipment when supplied with company equipment will not offer you rights or partial rights to the photograph(s) in my opinion. Your employer would simply say (s)he did not ask you to use your equipment.
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01/26/2012 09:32:04 AM · #10 |
It seems to me that if they want you to do something that is out of your job description, with your equipment, you should be entitled to some sort of compensation. Your job may be to take photos for reports, but nothing says you need to apply your artistic skills to those photos. So if they want you to take photos for marketing purposes, it seems to me you ought to be able to make some sort of deal with your employer. I think you have enough of a basis for negotiation.
The main thing, is if you have a good relationship with your employer, just be up-front and ask them how they want to handle the situation. That's my opinion anyway. If you are really concerned, you might want to ask an attorney.
Message edited by author 2012-01-26 09:33:40. |
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01/26/2012 09:32:50 AM · #11 |
| Software companies/IT Departments have a clause in place that basically says anything you create while working for them is theirs. This sounds pretty close to that and I'm not sure if your company has it explicitly(and not sure if they need to have it) but I think law works on precedent and this is out there...I don't think it would be hard for them to make a case against you on those grounds. |
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01/26/2012 09:33:35 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It seems to me that *your* pictures were taken without permission, and you could be liable for damages for piracy if they wanted to make a fuss about it..... |
Its is a public structure and i "could" have legally gotten them myself, as could anyone else, had i really wanted to, it was just more convenient for me to take them for myself since i was already there.
I'm really more concerned how to protect myself, since i got the impression that marketing may want me to offer do this on future trips to other bridges. I'd be happy to oblige if they provide the gear, but if I'm using my camera i want to maintain the rights even if i grant them limited use. |
You can always ask, but I'd get it in writing. |
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01/26/2012 09:58:54 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by Osiris1975:
It seems to me that if they want you to do something that is out of your job description, with your equipment, you should be entitled to some sort of compensation. Your job may be to take photos for reports, but nothing says you need to apply your artistic skills to those photos. So if they want you to take photos for marketing purposes, it seems to me you ought to be able to make some sort of deal with your employer. I think you have enough of a basis for negotiation.
The main thing, is if you have a good relationship with your employer, just be up-front and ask them how they want to handle the situation. That's my opinion anyway. If you are really concerned, you might want to ask an attorney. |
thats where I'm going with this. my job was to take pictures to document the repairs that were done, taking a sweeping wide angle shots or crazy perspective or "artsy" images wasn't part of the job, they were for my personal collection. I didn't take them with the intent to give them up, they knew ahead of time I was bringing my camera and maybe it wasn't clear i was taking these images for myself and that's my fault. I did let them use one of my images in a report only becuase it wasnt marketing and the guy i went out with, his shot didn't come out.
also, the processing was done completely by me on my own time.
I have a great relationship with my employer and i wouldn't mind doing this again, i just wasn't sure if owned the rights, if i need to say i want to own the rights and how to go about making sure i own the rights in the future.
I had an issue in the past where i used an image of a bridge i took as a screen saver and my boss noticed and wanted to use it in a magazine advertisement. He expected me to just let them use it and when i told them they had to pay for use they scoffed and used another image that hired photog took for them.
They know i have a decent camera and can take decent shots and i just dont want them thinking i am going to do this for free for them. They cant force me use my own gear.
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01/26/2012 10:23:12 AM · #14 |
Sounds like you were freelancing on company time.
Sorry...
You chose to use your equipment, but they were paying you at the time. |
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01/26/2012 10:28:42 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Sounds like you were freelancing on company time.
Sorry...
You chose to use your equipment, but they were paying you at the time. |
so if i wrote a short story, using my work pc they would own the rights to the story? |
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01/26/2012 10:33:08 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Sounds like you were freelancing on company time.
Sorry...
You chose to use your equipment, but they were paying you at the time. |
That's my feeling also; they sent you down there SPECIFICALLY to take pictures, as a part of your regular employment. I don't think whose gear you took 'em with is especially relevant to ownership, nor is when you chose to process them. I think they can reasonably claim the images belong to them. In fact, my gut feeling is that the real question here is, do YOU have any right to use these images for your own purposes?
I could be wrong, but that's how it feels to me.
R.
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01/26/2012 10:34:04 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Sounds like you were freelancing on company time.
Sorry...
You chose to use your equipment, but they were paying you at the time. |
so if i wrote a short story, using my work pc they would own the rights to the story? |
NO, because you're not paid to write. They might FIRE you if you did it on company time, though...
R.
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01/26/2012 11:02:42 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Since i would not have had access to or even been able to take these pictures without working at the time |
To add to the complexity: This sounds like you were not on public ground when taking the photos, which means you may need a property release for commercial use of the pictures.
Anyway, this seems difficult to solve on a purely law level without a lawyer.
So I would guess it would be best to just talk with each other. You want to take pictures you could not take while not at work, they are interested in pictures you can't take with the gear they provide. Maybe you can reach some sort of agreement, such as we don't mind if you use work time for your private shots as long as we can use the shots for our purposes too, and otherwise you can do what you want with the pictures - or whatever you both can agree to. |
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01/26/2012 11:16:11 AM · #19 |
Ultimately, you learned that for future reference, sort these issues out before you do anything.
I shoot pictures all the time here at work......
.....and I'm happy to give them to the people here for their enjoyment and company slide shows. They could always tell me to leave my equipment at home and do my job, rather than dinking around with my camera on the clock.
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01/26/2012 12:28:52 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Ultimately, you learned that for future reference, sort these issues out before you do anything.
I shoot pictures all the time here at work......
.....and I'm happy to give them to the people here for their enjoyment and company slide shows. They could always tell me to leave my equipment at home and do my job, rather than dinking around with my camera on the clock. |
thanks. i honestly didn't think about this until i showed off the pictures, and i saw the reaction i got. I was not too concerned about the not having the rights to these images and realistically my company wouldn't even care if i did you them as my own, so long as they could do as they want with them.
next time this issue comes up im going to make sure i'm up front front that they can use the images but i want to maintain the rights to do as i please with them outside the office or if i leave. it probably wont ever be an issue but i want to make sure becuase you never know. |
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01/26/2012 01:00:30 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by bjoern:
Anyway, this seems difficult to solve on a purely law level without a lawyer. |
You might want to invest in (or check your library for) a copy of the Legal Handbook for Photographers as a starting point to working your way out of the confusion ... |
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01/26/2012 01:47:09 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Sounds like you were freelancing on company time.
Sorry...
You chose to use your equipment, but they were paying you at the time. |
so if i wrote a short story, using my work pc they would own the rights to the story? |
NO, because you're not paid to write. They might FIRE you if you did it on company time, though...
R. |
They could have a basis to make a claim it is came to that, at least if he wrote it on company time using software licensed to the company on a company computer. In most employment agreements, there is an "invention clause" that says your employer has a claim to anything you create or discover using company resources (i.e. your working time, company PC etc.) even if that creation isn't directly related to your work. Usually this is used to lay claim to patentable discoveries or to keep employees from developing a derivative product "after hours" and then selling it to a competitor or quitting and becoming a competitor. In the absence of an agreement to the contrary, it's best to keep work separate from everything else unless you're willing to accept the risk that they may indeed have a claim to it.
ETA - The way it was explained to me by one of the corporate lawyers at an old employer when I asked about it was that just because the company has a potential claim, it doesn't necessarily mean they want to exercise that claim. They just want the right of first refusal. So if you were working at a company that made washing machines and in your off hours, you invented a new automotive transmission, you'd go to your employer and if they didn't want to get into the automotive transmission business, you'd be free to take it elsewhere and sell your idea. This is all independent of you using company resources though, so if you'd worked on your transmission while you were supposed to be working on your washing machine or had used materials in the shop to build a prototype you could be in deep doo doo.
Message edited by author 2012-01-26 17:00:55. |
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01/26/2012 05:45:34 PM · #23 |
Best bet... spend some money and ask a lawyer.
Free advise is worth every penny you pay for it.
Ray |
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01/26/2012 06:44:10 PM · #24 |
Who owns the shot if...
You're on a business trip for the purpose of photography, you hide a company camera in your hotel room with an auto-timer set to take a shot every minute, and proceed to have sex with the boss without her knowing it?
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01/26/2012 06:51:24 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Who owns the shot if...
You're on a business trip for the purpose of photography, you hide a company camera in your hotel room with an auto-timer set to take a shot every minute, and proceed to have sex with the boss without her knowing it? |
The District Attorney? |
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