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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Occupy Wallstreet vs Middle East protests
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10/31/2011 10:56:36 AM · #1
The Occupy Wallstreet Video

It's interesting comparing the current protests in the west vs what the government said about protests in the east. Protesters still have far more rights in the west, but it's still amazing to see how hypocrisy can works, although kind of scary.

10/31/2011 11:31:07 AM · #2
We fund our own oppression by paying our taxes.
10/31/2011 12:16:13 PM · #3
no comparison.

Occupy wall street has been allowed to continue, the government has not stepped in to silence them. The only time the police got involved is when they were instigated.

let not act like occupy wallstreet has a bunch of martyrs and lets not compare the protest of corporate greed to the uprising of an oppressed people.

10/31/2011 01:47:17 PM · #4
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Message edited by author 2011-10-31 14:39:50.
10/31/2011 02:34:37 PM · #5
Originally posted by mike_311:

The only time the police got involved is when they were instigated.


This is not what happened in Oakland. At four days ago 4:30 AM police moved into a sleeping camp, rousting out everyone, arresting those who objected. All property within the camp was seized, and the area closed to the public. That night tempers on both sides frayed and a decorated Iraq war vet was hit first with a bean bag which knocked him to the ground. When friends went to help him, a teargas canister was fired into the group, which shattered his skull and put him in the hospital in critical condition. The former Marine had a good job and an apartment, he got his skull shattered protesting against government policy. Laugh at him if you like, say he was instigating something so the police were right to shatter his skull. Scott Olson has become the face of occupy Oakland.
10/31/2011 02:40:31 PM · #6
Originally posted by mike_311:

no comparison.

Occupy wall street has been allowed to continue, the government has not stepped in to silence them. The only time the police got involved is when they were instigated.

let not act like occupy wallstreet has a bunch of martyrs and lets not compare the protest of corporate greed to the uprising of an oppressed people.


One effect of corporate greed is oppression of the people. In the middle east, the greed was among the politicians who ran the countries. It's not a stretch to say that the corporations run this country, even if their power is by proxy.
10/31/2011 03:51:44 PM · #7
What would be considered a satisfactory outcome of "occupy Wall Street or wherever"?
10/31/2011 05:36:51 PM · #8
Originally posted by mgsmith53:

What would be considered a satisfactory outcome of "occupy Wall Street or wherever"?

China should send over it's air force to side with the protestors and protect them. Then they should start bombing the military bases.

Finally, when the politicians go into hiding they should arm the protestors and encourage them to hunt down the remaining army chiefs and overthrow the remnants of the government.

When the protestors capture the president/prime minister they should hand them over to the ICC for war crimes prosecution (and let's face it, every leader in the world can have *some* form of 'war crime' concocted against them)

Then the protestors can install an interim government and a randomly selected prime minister, and strike oil deals with China as payment for helping them out.
10/31/2011 05:42:32 PM · #9
Originally posted by JH:

Originally posted by mgsmith53:

What would be considered a satisfactory outcome of "occupy Wall Street or wherever"?

China should send over it's air force to side with the protestors and protect them. Then they should start bombing the military bases.

Finally, when the politicians go into hiding they should arm the protestors and encourage them to hunt down the remaining army chiefs and overthrow the remnants of the government.

When the protestors capture the president/prime minister they should hand them over to the ICC for war crimes prosecution (and let's face it, every leader in the world can have *some* form of 'war crime' concocted against them)

Then the protestors can install an interim government and a randomly selected prime minister, and strike oil deals with China as payment for helping them out.

Perfect !
10/31/2011 05:53:13 PM · #10
Originally posted by mgsmith53:

What would be considered a satisfactory outcome of "occupy Wall Street or wherever"?


A difficult question, since there are a huge variety of opinions seeking voice in these protests.

Some have contrasted the movement with the Tea Party protests, which has a clearly defined goal of creating lower taxes and a weaker smaller government. Their well funded and narrow message has resulted in that movement gaining a great deal of power for a small constituency.

On the other hand the civil rights movement of the 60's, which started out fighting the seating rules on public buses in one city, then shifted to voting rights across the south, public schooling across the nation, segregation in society and a vast number of individual outcomes, but was at heart an attempt to change the paradigm of racial relations in the United States. It was both focused and very general in what it was protesting.

At the moment the basic issue being rallied against in the Occupy protests is the power of Wall Street, and the "divine right of capital" that has been enthroned in America since the 80's and the resulting pain of the working class and the power of money in politics. Having seen these protest locally attempting to refine a message, or even figure out how to behave day to day by using a democratic process of meetings with open forums and votes on every little issue, each point being debated and battled over, it seems a fairly hopeless political cause, but it is expressing a very real anger at the way out political system has been bought and paid for, and for which there is no voice in politics or the media which they believe is challenging the path our country is on. So they protest with what they have, their bodies and their time.

"There's a difference between an emotional outcry and a movement," said Andrew Young, who worked alongside the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. as a strategist during the civil rights movement and served as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. "This is an emotional outcry. The difference is organization and articulation."

That articulation does not yet exist.
10/31/2011 06:02:06 PM · #11
I dare any of the "originalist" constitutional lawyers sitting on the SCOTUS to find the word "corporation" anywhere in the Constitution -- I don't see where corporations have any "rights" at all except those granted through the consent of the people through their elected representatives.

The real coup of the 2000 election was the ability for the right to get reactionary activist hypocrites ensconced on the Court for the next two generations.

The Republicans tried to impeach Earl Warren when the Court expanded civil rights at the expense of the established interests ... maybe it's time to consider turning the tables ...

Message edited by author 2011-10-31 18:02:48.
10/31/2011 07:05:28 PM · #12
Originally posted by BrennanOB:



Some have contrasted the movement with the Tea Party protests, which has a clearly defined goal of creating lower taxes and a weaker smaller government. Their well funded and narrow message has resulted in that movement gaining a great deal of power for a small constituency.


Oddly enough, the original Tea Party was a protest against a government tax break for a corporation.

Today's Tea Party has been absorbed and amalgamated with the Republican Party...there's really no difference.
10/31/2011 08:07:59 PM · #13
Originally posted by heavyj:

The Occupy Wallstreet Video

It's interesting comparing the current protests in the west vs what the government said about protests in the east. Protesters still have far more rights in the west, but it's still amazing to see how hypocrisy can works, although kind of scary.


Sorry, but I find that video an insult to the people of countries such as Syria who put their lives at risk on a daily basis just to have rights approaching those we take for granted on a daily basis in western countries. These are two very different situations that just aren't comparable no matter what your feelings on the Occupy Wall Street protests are - and if you believe it is I really think you lack any perception on what the peoples of certain Arabic nations are currently going through.
10/31/2011 08:25:49 PM · #14
Originally posted by HawkinsT:

These are two very different situations that just aren't comparable no matter what your feelings on the Occupy Wall Street protests are - and if you believe it is I really think you lack any perception on what the peoples of certain Arabic nations are currently going through.


Odd that those at the core of the Arab spring disagree with you. Perhaps they also lack any perception of what they are going through?
10/31/2011 09:03:48 PM · #15
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by HawkinsT:

These are two very different situations that just aren't comparable no matter what your feelings on the Occupy Wall Street protests are - and if you believe it is I really think you lack any perception on what the peoples of certain Arabic nations are currently going through.


Odd that those at the core of the Arab spring disagree with you. Perhaps they also lack any perception of what they are going through?


Interesting, but this video tries to draw large parallels not with predominantly the Egyptian revolution (which I'd still disagree with although to a much lesser degree), but with the revolutions of countries such as Libya which I don't think you really have a case for, no matter how well you try to argue your point. I mean the constant delusive flashing of catchy vignettes e.g. the Tienanmen Square massacre? Please! This video continually mentions the Occupy Wall Street protests while alluding to the massacre, torture etc. of tens of thousands of people or more. The video is disgraceful propaganda and I can only see irony in its use trying to further the cause of the Occupy Wall Street protests.
10/31/2011 09:18:13 PM · #16
Originally posted by HawkinsT:

..... The video is disgraceful propaganda and I can only see irony in its use trying to further the cause of the Occupy Wall Street protests.


But just what do you see as the cause of the OWS? Do you think that NOTHING is wrong in the corporational states of America?
10/31/2011 09:22:55 PM · #17
No, there's A LOT wrong. I'm just saying this videos method of trying to further its cause is no better than the lies told by mass corporations to further theirs.
10/31/2011 09:42:36 PM · #18
Not fond of the video either. Nonetheless it is hard NOT to see parallels. Khadafi was fine, in US eyes, as long as he was in sync with the interests of that very power structure that OWS is protesting.
10/31/2011 10:52:13 PM · #19
Originally posted by HawkinsT:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by HawkinsT:

These are two very different situations that just aren't comparable no matter what your feelings on the Occupy Wall Street protests are - and if you believe it is I really think you lack any perception on what the peoples of certain Arabic nations are currently going through.


Odd that those at the core of the Arab spring disagree with you. Perhaps they also lack any perception of what they are going through?


Interesting, but this video tries to draw large parallels not with predominantly the Egyptian revolution (which I'd still disagree with although to a much lesser degree), but with the revolutions of countries such as Libya which I don't think you really have a case for, no matter how well you try to argue your point. I mean the constant delusive flashing of catchy vignettes e.g. the Tienanmen Square massacre? Please! This video continually mentions the Occupy Wall Street protests while alluding to the massacre, torture etc. of tens of thousands of people or more. The video is disgraceful propaganda and I can only see irony in its use trying to further the cause of the Occupy Wall Street protests.


The Corporate States of America is just more subtle about their oppression. That doesn't make it any less lethal.
10/31/2011 11:07:42 PM · #20
Homeless children: the hard times generation
10/31/2011 11:48:12 PM · #21
Originally posted by HawkinsT:

Originally posted by heavyj:

The Occupy Wallstreet Video

It's interesting comparing the current protests in the west vs what the government said about protests in the east. Protesters still have far more rights in the west, but it's still amazing to see how hypocrisy can works, although kind of scary.


Sorry, but I find that video an insult to the people of countries such as Syria who put their lives at risk on a daily basis just to have rights approaching those we take for granted on a daily basis in western countries.

There's an Iraq war veteran still in the hospital with a fractured skull, apparently at the hands of the Oakland Police in the course of rousting out the encampment in a 4am raid.

BTW, ever hear of Kent State? Syria is not the only country to utilize its military to kill young citizens "peaceably assembled to petition for redress of grievances" as the Constitution supposedly guarantees the right to do ...
11/01/2011 01:58:08 PM · #22
Originally posted by mike_311:

The only time the police got involved is when they were instigated.


You might have a point if you consider peaceful protests an instigation. (And as in the case of so many of the police raids, I wonder how sleeping protesters in the middle of the night managed to instigate a violent reaction?) Actually, I think the protesters have been incredibly disciplined and restrained given the constant provocation from the police to act otherwise.
11/01/2011 03:50:59 PM · #23
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Actually, I think the protesters have been incredibly disciplined and restrained given the constant provocation from the police to act otherwise.


From my experience in Oakland, and to a lesser extent San Francisco, both the protesters and the police have been on the whole quite restrained in their actions. There are fringe elements in the Occupy movement who are mentally unstable and act very aggressively toward the police and their fellow protesters. There are the equivalent hot head cops who are itching for a confrontation, but most see their presence at the protests as a waste of their time when they ought to be out patrolling their beats' keeping a lid on real crime. The majority of the police I have spoken with have some measure of sympathy with the ideals of the protest, but they follow the orders they are given by the mayor, as is their job. The core of the protest knows that the police are not the enemy and that escalation is not a good idea.
11/01/2011 04:10:31 PM · #24
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Actually, I think the protesters have been incredibly disciplined and restrained given the constant provocation from the police to act otherwise.


From my experience in Oakland, and to a lesser extent San Francisco, both the protesters and the police have been on the whole quite restrained in their actions. There are fringe elements in the Occupy movement who are mentally unstable and act very aggressively toward the police and their fellow protesters. There are the equivalent hot head cops who are itching for a confrontation, but most see their presence at the protests as a waste of their time when they ought to be out patrolling their beats' keeping a lid on real crime. The majority of the police I have spoken with have some measure of sympathy with the ideals of the protest, but they follow the orders they are given by the mayor, as is their job. The core of the protest knows that the police are not the enemy and that escalation is not a good idea.


Never forget that, despite how the LEO's feel themselves about the OWS protests, Law Enforcement is essentially the Army of the 1%.
11/01/2011 05:40:58 PM · #25
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by mike_311:

The only time the police got involved is when they were instigated.


You might have a point if you consider peaceful protests an instigation. (And as in the case of so many of the police raids, I wonder how sleeping protesters in the middle of the night managed to instigate a violent reaction?) Actually, I think the protesters have been incredibly disciplined and restrained given the constant provocation from the police to act otherwise.


the protestors gain a benefit by instigating, they can say "look, we are getting beaten we are being silenced". i wouldn't be surprised to find that the organizers are planting people to instigate knowing they will get massive news coverage a favorable view from the public.

what i have seen across the country is minor police interference, the protests are being allowed to carry on so long as they dont interfere with the public, traffic and follow rules. there is no need or reason for police to just move in and beat people, especially in today's society where everything is on film.

here in Philadelphia its been very peaceful. in fact the protestors are going to have to find a new spot soon becuase construction is about to start on city hall, let see how well they abide.

Message edited by author 2011-11-01 17:44:06.
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