college - education or job training

12/19/2011 05:06:24 PM · #26

Originally posted by IAmEliKatz:

It all depends on the job. Some may or may not agree to this but in IT, what I am currently doing, you don't need a college degree. All you need is a bunch of high level certifications (Microsoft, Cisco, HP etc...) and you could land a 6 figure a year job.

You could, but it's more likely with a degree. Also keep in mind that you might not want to do IT for the rest of your life, or, you might get laid off when the economy takes another dump. Then your certifications are pretty much worthless.

ETA: It's 10x harder to go back to school when you're older, especially if you have outside obligations like a wife and kids.

Message edited by author 2011-12-19 17:43:40.

bspurgeon

Fujifilm x100

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

12/19/2011 05:18:22 PM · #27

edjukashun please

IAmEliKatz

Nikon D5

12/19/2011 05:55:22 PM · #28

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by IAmEliKatz:
It all depends on the job. Some may or may not agree to this but in IT, what I am currently doing, you don't need a college degree. All you need is a bunch of high level certifications (Microsoft, Cisco, HP etc...) and you could land a 6 figure a year job.

You could, but it's more likely with a degree. Also keep in mind that you might not want to do IT for the rest of your life, or, you might get laid off when the economy takes another dump. Then your certifications are pretty much worthless.

ETA: It's 10x harder to go back to school when you're older, especially if you have outside obligations like a wife and kids.

Which is why I went to college and got myself a degree. I was just stating that it is possible to go through life and never go to college.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G

12/19/2011 05:56:52 PM · #29

Originally posted by IAmEliKatz:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by IAmEliKatz:
It all depends on the job. Some may or may not agree to this but in IT, what I am currently doing, you don't need a college degree. All you need is a bunch of high level certifications (Microsoft, Cisco, HP etc...) and you could land a 6 figure a year job.

You could, but it's more likely with a degree. Also keep in mind that you might not want to do IT for the rest of your life, or, you might get laid off when the economy takes another dump. Then your certifications are pretty much worthless.

ETA: It's 10x harder to go back to school when you're older, especially if you have outside obligations like a wife and kids.

Which is why I went to college and got myself a degree. I was just stating that it is possible to go through life and never go to college.

It's also possible to spend your entire career asking, "Would you like fries with that?"

JamesA

Nikon D800

12/19/2011 06:01:08 PM · #30

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by IAmEliKatz:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by IAmEliKatz:
It all depends on the job. Some may or may not agree to this but in IT, what I am currently doing, you don't need a college degree. All you need is a bunch of high level certifications (Microsoft, Cisco, HP etc...) and you could land a 6 figure a year job.

You could, but it's more likely with a degree. Also keep in mind that you might not want to do IT for the rest of your life, or, you might get laid off when the economy takes another dump. Then your certifications are pretty much worthless.

ETA: It's 10x harder to go back to school when you're older, especially if you have outside obligations like a wife and kids.

Which is why I went to college and got myself a degree. I was just stating that it is possible to go through life and never go to college.

It's also possible to spend your entire career asking, "Would you like fries with that?"

Even with a degree

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

12/19/2011 06:08:10 PM · #31

Originally posted by JamesA:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by IAmEliKatz:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by IAmEliKatz:
It all depends on the job. Some may or may not agree to this but in IT, what I am currently doing, you don't need a college degree. All you need is a bunch of high level certifications (Microsoft, Cisco, HP etc...) and you could land a 6 figure a year job.

You could, but it's more likely with a degree. Also keep in mind that you might not want to do IT for the rest of your life, or, you might get laid off when the economy takes another dump. Then your certifications are pretty much worthless.

ETA: It's 10x harder to go back to school when you're older, especially if you have outside obligations like a wife and kids.

Which is why I went to college and got myself a degree. I was just stating that it is possible to go through life and never go to college.

It's also possible to spend your entire career asking, "Would you like fries with that?"

Even with a degree

But much more likely without.

fotomann_forever

12/19/2011 06:21:21 PM · #32

Personally, I'd like a refund... no one gives a flyin' F if I have a BA, BS ... worst $50,000 I ever spent.

o2bskating

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

12/19/2011 06:39:36 PM · #33

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Personally, I'd like a refund... no one gives a flyin' F if I have a BA, BS ... worst $50,000 I ever spent.

and nobody will give me a job cause i don't have one....strange isn't it

geinafets

Canon EOS-50D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

12/19/2011 06:46:45 PM · #34

I'd like to think that the purpose of going to school is to learn how to be a good, productive member of society. If you go to school with the express intent of learning things that are relevant to your career, then you'll be learning how to be productive and contribute to the economy, on which modern society depends. If you go to school with the express intent of learning things that interest you, then you are being a productive member of society because you have the knowledge necessary to make educated decisions about issues relating to your field of knowledge, whatever that may be, and how it affects the rest of your fellow citizens as well as the global population.

In my dream world, kids would be required to clock many, many more hours in a classroom than American children currently do. I think school should run from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. (to give the parents enough time to get to work and get home without needing to worry about babysitters), and it should run all year long. No summer vacation nonsense, which is proven to be an excuse for kids to forget a significant amount of the things they learned in the previous school year.

It's possible to make it through life without a degree, but it's easier to get a higher paying job with one. You also have more information at your disposal (if you choose to actually do your schoolwork, that is) so that you can make educated decisions later in life.

Originally posted by RayEthier:

In addition, some have very high expectation as to what their starting salary should be[...]

As for that, can you really blame us when we are expected to pay $1,000-2,000 per month on student loans? Then we have to pay ~$800 per month to rent a bedroom in an apartment in (for example) Brooklyn, at least $100 per month on food, $50 per month on a cheap non-smart-phone cell plan. Already, that requires a salary of $35k-45k! That doesn't take into account heat, electricity, garbage disposal, internet, TV, clothes, or actually having any fun.

I know the students choose to take out loans, but for many of us, it's not really a true choice since it's the only option. Our parent's can't afford to help us, working while going to school only covers food and part of the rent, and when you take into account all of the statistics about how much more, on average, people with university degrees make over those with just a high school degree, skipping out on school is not an option.

It doesn't help that the loan companies are (obviously) for-profit entities, so they are not *really* interested in helping out the students. I graduated from uni almost four years ago, and although I've been paying toward my loans, my amount owed has actually gone UP over that time because of the way interest compounds. It's a trap that's very difficult to get out of unless you're making those unreasonably high starting salaries...which I am not. Actually, I'm working a full-time job, which generally requires 60-80 hours per week, and I'm not even meeting the poverty line!

fotomann_forever

12/19/2011 08:33:07 PM · #35

Originally posted by o2bskating:

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Personally, I'd like a refund... no one gives a flyin' F if I have a BA, BS ... worst $50,000 I ever spent.

and nobody will give me a job cause i don't have one....strange isn't it

Guess it depends on what kind of field you're trying to get in to. I do think some employers hold too highly the importance of a degree.

blindjustice

Canon EOS-60D

12/19/2011 08:47:59 PM · #36

What we have here is the essence of the American class system at work; those who can "afford" college, grad school, law school, etc without loans (because parents helped out, usually) have a tremendous leg up over those with crushing student debt. And in the future, much worse.

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

12/20/2011 07:25:47 AM · #37

Originally posted by Spork99:

Which is why I went to college and got myself a degree. I was just stating that it is possible to go through life and never go to college.

It's also possible to spend your entire career asking, "Would you like fries with that?" [/quote]

that's a pretty ignorant statement and one in my opinion that is wrong with this country. There is no need for everyone to get a degree. Lets face it some people aren't cut out for school, and they shouldn't be "required" to attend in order live a decent life. there are plenty of careers in the trades and other fields that don't require degrees but are for some reason looked down upon becuase you aren't "educated".

the trades are hard work but its not like they make peanuts either.

now what we have is a an over abundance of educated folks with no jobs to give them and a shortage of trade workers.

we need to stop looking down on people becuase they chose not to go to college. They are the smart ones, they didn't waste four years going to school, placing financial debt on themselves or someone else, most likely do what they enjoy and make good money doing it.

geinafets

Canon EOS-50D

12/20/2011 08:15:26 AM · #38

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Spork99:

It's also possible to spend your entire career asking, "Would you like fries with that?"

that's a pretty ignorant statement and one in my opinion that is wrong with this country. There is no need for everyone to get a degree. Lets face it some people aren't cut out for school, and they shouldn't be "required" to attend in order live a decent life. there are plenty of careers in the trades and other fields that don't require degrees but are for some reason looked down upon becuase you aren't "educated".

the trades are hard work but its not like they make peanuts either.

now what we have is a an over abundance of educated folks with no jobs to give them and a shortage of trade workers.

we need to stop looking down on people becuase they chose not to go to college. They are the smart ones, they didn't waste four years going to school, placing financial debt on themselves or someone else, most likely do what they enjoy and make good money doing it.

Trade school is still a school, and people who go to trade school still get educated. They get taught something different than what is taught is a uni, but that doesn't mean they aren't educated.

That said, I also don't think that the majority of Americans push themselves to live to their highest potential. I'm not talking about just in terms of education. I don't know why, whether it's because Americans don't have the self-confidence, whether they don't believe in their own worth, whether they're just lazy, or something else, but Americans seem to aim for mediocre, and then rarely even meet those low goals. It makes me sad. We could all be so much more if we challenged ourselves to be more and if we challenged each other to reach a little higher.

Message edited by author 2011-12-20 08:16:06.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

12/20/2011 09:49:58 AM · #39

Originally posted by mike_311:

The fact is that the average person with a college degree will have a higher starting salary, and make more money over the course of their career and have a higher standard of living, even when accounting for student loans. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I know that when I graduated with my engineering degree, my starting salary was just a bit less that what the highest paid machinist in the shop was paid. The gap between what I was making and what a machinist who had been on the job since I'd started school was much greater.

Message edited by author 2011-12-20 09:51:37.

ShutterRev

Nikon D610

12/20/2011 10:09:32 AM · #40

I have been in the working world for 12 years now, I have become a technical expert for what I do, I also have a High School Diploma *gasp*. When I got hired by a major company to be a "Product Technical Lead" I remember sharing an office with a brand new employee fresh out of a Masters program at a good school, we were hired to o the same job and paid the same. He knew the science, math and theory behind what we did very well due to his MS (which I did not), I knew the software, data model, and our job due to 5 years experience at another job. I spent the first year showing him how to use the software, teaching him how to do what we do... fast forward two years later... I am still a technical lead for the same product, making a couple more dollars an hour. That same guy with the Masters was now my next level boss (Project Manager) had just bought a house and a new sports car, there is no way I could have afforded any of that at the time but I was not the Project Manager :) So it seems degrees put you on a different track, I am not complaining as I loved being the technical guy anyway... just using the instance as an example of generally how these thins go.

Though everyone may know you are the technical expert, and you may very well be... When your companies try to bid on contracts, or bid on work in general, the companies buying your products like to see credentials up front and in signatures as a warm fuzzy. IE: John Smith MS, Project Manager looks far better than Jack Smith High School Graduate :)

I am a technical expert, and have done well for myself but it has been a long hard road since I have no degree. So I would offer this, if you are at a point in your life where you could go to college and get a usable degree then do so. If you have been working for years as I have, and think it would help you out to get a degree... then start looking at night school, etc... because no matter how proud we non-degree folks are of the fact we can train/outdo the academics because of sheer experience, none of that matters. In the end all that matters is the paperwork. It does not mean you can't be successful, your road will be much longer.

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

12/20/2011 10:40:27 AM · #41

Originally posted by geinafets:

Trade school is still a school, and people who go to trade school still get educated. They get taught something different than what is taught is a uni, but that doesn't mean they aren't educated.

you dont have to go to trade school to learn a trade per say, but it helps to get a certification, but that certification is much cheaper than a 4 year school and requires much less time.

geinafets

Canon EOS-50D