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 08/24/2011 09:22:22 PM · #76
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Message edited by author 2011-08-24 21:25:29.
 08/24/2011 09:26:36 PM · #77
Originally posted by MargaretN:
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Well... all assumptions are skewed.
His assumption was that the only reason why Bear's image scored low was that most voters thought it was DNMC. I pointed out that there are some styles most DPC voters don't like and hence it did not have to be DNMC to get low votes.
PS Sorry, I had to repeat this as I thought my point was not clear.


No, I understood what you meant. But your assumption, in the sense that it is an assumption at all, is skewed just as equally. You know the motivation of voters just as much as he. You have no way of knowing, one way or the other. Sometimes blurry images score high, ::cough cough ursula cough cough::, other times they don't, but you never know the reason it is that they score low or high, beyond speculation (unless everybody were to explain their vote). Yet, here we are discussing the validity of one speculation over another...
Perhaps many voters hate long exposures of the sea, for their cliche existence here at DPC, or perhaps they hate photos of children for the same reason. Or, perhaps, some voters saw it as a trite attempt to be "deep." All of these explanations are just as plausible and have been volunteered as reasons for downvoting similar images.
08/24/2011 10:09:25 PM · #78
I often get slack on this, but if it really doesn't meet the challenge, I don't give more than a 5. After all, the point of taking a photo for a challenge is to meet the challenge. Free studies are for anything.

Now, with that said, if there is a photo that is obvious that it doesn't meet, for example, shoot a circle and someone submits a square, then I vote and I'm done.

But, if its not that clear, I will come back another day to give another view and see if the intentions become more clear.
 08/24/2011 10:21:58 PM · #79
The text I have bolded below is a very astute observation.

I've seen nature/landscape photographer hahn23 at times give a commenter an earful about a comment they have made on his entry. I remember one of my first "discussions with him was on another site. I commented on a midday photo of a big horn sheep or similar animal. I commented that the photo showed harsh lighting and blown areas on the horns. I said it would have been better to take the photo at sundown He responded by calling me "Bevis" (from Bevis and Butthead) saying something like....

....These are wild animals and they are not behind a fence at a zoo...They are only accessible to photograph during the midday hours. He said something about it is their defense to NOT come out in the early or late hours. He said he would call me the next time he saw one out in the "golden hours". ***This is not an exact quote but it's close.****

The reason I bring this up is in bold below. I knew nothing of these animals. I didn't know if you could see them at midnight, sundown or midday. All I could vote and comment on was what I knew about how a photo should look....the bad and the good.

So the bold quote below says a lot. It would be nice to spell out in a paragraph the effort and time needed to photograph your entry. However, that's not possible the way DP is set up. We are doomed to vote on a photo with a very limited explanation in the title.

***Richard, please don't take this as a slam. It is an observation that supports the bold quote below.***

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by MargaretN:
Originally posted by rugman1969:
No offense Bear_Music, but so many people "got it", it came in 86th. I don't understand. It is a nice photo, just doesn't show the subject of Time to me, and obviously many others feel the same.
Many voters don't like blurred photos, nothing to do with the understanding of the topic. Your assumptions are skewed.


Well... all assumptions are skewed. They are by nature inaccurate, particularly when they relate to an amorphous voting base that everybody alternately decries and lauds for their density and open minded receipt of "outside the box" entries ;)

And "getting it" has nothing to do with placement. Many people find that the message of works conveyed is objectionable. There are plenty of books for children I understand perfectly well and find to be rubbish, and there are probably many novels I enjoy for reasons completely separate of those the author intended or aimed for. This speculation is sorta amusing. Many would find works more enjoyable after they read the photographer's notes, to understand their intent and the travails they went through to capture the image, but we are not given that option, we are blindly judging upon an image, so don't pretend anything else to be true. Voting is voting, we all have opinions of our own (and I wouldn't have it any other way!).

08/24/2011 11:07:34 PM · #80
Originally posted by MargaretN:
Originally posted by rugman1969:
No offense Bear_Music, but so many people "got it", it came in 86th. I don't understand. It is a nice photo, just doesn't show the subject of Time to me, and obviously many others feel the same.
Many voters don't like blurred photos, nothing to do with the understanding of the topic. Your assumptions are skewed.


Not an assumption. I just didn't get it.
08/24/2011 11:09:05 PM · #81
Originally posted by MargaretN:
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Well... all assumptions are skewed.
His assumption was that the only reason why Bear's image scored low was that most voters thought it was DNMC. I pointed out that there are some styles most DPC voters don't like and hence it did not have to be DNMC to get low votes.
PS Sorry, I had to repeat this as I thought my point was not clear.


Hello? Mcfly!!! I didn't say I assumed anything. I looked at what place the photo was in and said that obviously many voters didn't "get it". I said nothing about many voters saying it was DNMC. Get the facts straight.
 08/24/2011 11:14:22 PM · #82
Why is this thread still going? Everyone has their own voting style. If you don't want a possible DNMC from me, make sure you project in your image the challenge description. If you don't, I will give you a low vote and a DNMC. Simple. No one can change my mind on it. No one will sway my vote. If it is, it is. If you submit an entry in a "Cars" challenge, submit a car and I will vote accordingly. If you submit a truck, el camino, ranchero, jeep, etc... I will DNMC and vote a 1 or 2. Why is this so complicated?
 08/24/2011 11:23:28 PM · #83
Originally posted by rugman1969:
Why is this thread still going? Everyone has their own voting style. If you don't want a possible DNMC from me, make sure you project in your image the challenge description. If you don't, I will give you a low vote and a DNMC. Simple. No one can change my mind on it. No one will sway my vote. If it is, it is. If you submit an entry in a "Cars" challenge, submit a car and I will vote accordingly. If you submit a truck, el camino, ranchero, jeep, etc... I will DNMC and vote a 1 or 2. Why is this so complicated?


Makes sense to me, (i'll do something very different)

Message edited by author 2011-08-24 23:28:13.
 08/24/2011 11:49:54 PM · #84
Did you ever get rid of that El Camino you had up on blocks outside your apartment?

Originally posted by rugman1969:
Why is this thread still going? Everyone has their own voting style. If you don't want a possible DNMC from me, make sure you project in your image the challenge description. If you don't, I will give you a low vote and a DNMC. Simple. No one can change my mind on it. No one will sway my vote. If it is, it is. If you submit an entry in a "Cars" challenge, submit a car and I will vote accordingly. If you submit a truck, el camino, ranchero, jeep, etc... I will DNMC and vote a 1 or 2. Why is this so complicated?

08/25/2011 12:31:46 AM · #85
Originally posted by rugman1969:
Why is this thread still going? Everyone has their own voting style. If you don't want a possible DNMC from me, make sure you project in your image the challenge description. If you don't, I will give you a low vote and a DNMC. Simple. No one can change my mind on it. No one will sway my vote. If it is, it is. If you submit an entry in a "Cars" challenge, submit a car and I will vote accordingly. If you submit a truck, el camino, ranchero, jeep, etc... I will DNMC and vote a 1 or 2. Why is this so complicated?

Here is a great example of first saying everyone has their own voting style and then only seeing your own opinion and insisting that you are somehow more right than anyone else. I checked the beginning of the thread, it was not directed at you, and I do not think anyone really is trying to change anyones mind, merely discuss the concepts and hear others thoughts, its as if you do not even see anyone else here in the forum besides yourself. If you are done with the topic, and you certainly have given your own opinion quite strongly, then move on, enjoy the view, maybe others still want to contribute and continue the debate. Not everything has a simple answer.
BTW one reason its so complicated is I would call an El Cam a car, it was mostly a car and there were no SUV's yet and it sure as hell was no truck. Some people love rules and others breaking them. I say, lets keep this thread alive! I still do not understand what golden ideal you think you are protecting by voting harshly. Its just an online forum.
 08/25/2011 12:41:48 AM · #86
Originally posted by rugman1969:
Why is this thread still going? Everyone has their own voting style. If you don't want a possible DNMC from me, make sure you project in your image the challenge description. If you don't, I will give you a low vote and a DNMC. Simple. No one can change my mind on it. No one will sway my vote. If it is, it is. If you submit an entry in a "Cars" challenge, submit a car and I will vote accordingly. If you submit a truck, el camino, ranchero, jeep, etc... I will DNMC and vote a 1 or 2. Why is this so complicated?


That is exactly why this thread is still going on. Everyone has a voting style and that is why the OP is asking, what is your voting style for a dnmc? The more responses, the better. No one is persuading another on how to vote.

And it is not as simple as you think it is. While we both know what a car is and what it is not, this is a global site, and i actually come from a non-english speaking place where some people think that a car is just another synonym for a vehicle, which includes all those vehicles you mentioned. So what may seem as a simple dnmc to you my actually be an honest to goodness shot for a challenge to some people. Like your beach shot in an urban challenge. It was dnmc to some people, but based on your notes, it wasn't. And people did not know that, and yet they were still generous enough to give you a score above 4. Way above your own meter.
 08/25/2011 12:58:44 AM · #87
I like this thread. It's important to figure out and agree on the proper way to vote, and we should all vote the same. We should isolate our differences and discuss the causes of them. Then we will be able to consolidate and merge our ideas into a glorious singularity.

Eventually it won't be necessary to enter, because we will know and share each others opinions so well, we will be able to properly rate our own images. Eventually, we won't even have to take pictures because our experiences will all be the same. I mean, that's the goal, right?

Hey. It will save on membership fees.
 08/25/2011 01:11:40 AM · #88
Originally posted by adigitalromance:
I like this thread. It's important to figure out and agree on the proper way to vote, and we should all vote the same. We should isolate our differences and discuss the causes of them. Then we will be able to consolidate and merge our ideas into a glorious singularity.

Eventually it won't be necessary to enter, because we will know and share each others opinions so well, we will be able to properly rate our own images. Eventually, we won't even have to take pictures because our experiences will all be the same. I mean, that's the goal, right?

Hey. It will save on membership fees.

Of course it's the goal. Now we just have to determine whose ideas to merge towards...
 08/25/2011 01:33:08 AM · #89
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by adigitalromance:
I like this thread. It's important to figure out and agree on the proper way to vote, and we should all vote the same. We should isolate our differences and discuss the causes of them. Then we will be able to consolidate and merge our ideas into a glorious singularity.

Eventually it won't be necessary to enter, because we will know and share each others opinions so well, we will be able to properly rate our own images. Eventually, we won't even have to take pictures because our experiences will all be the same. I mean, that's the goal, right?

Hey. It will save on membership fees.

Of course it's the goal. Now we just have to determine whose ideas to merge towards...

Change the scale to 5 only.
 08/25/2011 02:36:21 AM · #90
Originally posted by adigitalromance:
I like this thread. It's important to figure out and agree on the proper way to vote, and we should all vote the same. We should isolate our differences and discuss the causes of them. Then we will be able to consolidate and merge our ideas into a glorious singularity.

Eventually it won't be necessary to enter, because we will know and share each others opinions so well, we will be able to properly rate our own images. Eventually, we won't even have to take pictures because our experiences will all be the same. I mean, that's the goal, right? ...


Ah, that was beautiful.
 08/25/2011 07:41:38 AM · #91
Originally posted by adigitalromance:
I like this thread. It's important to figure out and agree on the proper way to vote, and we should all vote the same. We should isolate our differences and discuss the causes of them. Then we will be able to consolidate and merge our ideas into a glorious singularity.

Eventually it won't be necessary to enter, because we will know and share each others opinions so well, we will be able to properly rate our own images. Eventually, we won't even have to take pictures because our experiences will all be the same. I mean, that's the goal, right?

Hey. It will save on membership fees.


Is seems there is a view held by some people that all discussion leads to consensus, that there is, in fact, a correct answer. Their goal in life or art seems to be to find and achieve this one correct answer. I can only imagine the discomfort of having to endure so many opinions, when clearly, only one opinion can be the one true correct one. If the continued discussions about the many options we have for our opinions pains the readers so much, again, I suggest moving on, reading another post, joining one of the many extremest organizations that are thriving in these diversionary times. I find it interesting that to some people discussion is evil, opinions are things to be repressed and the freedom to have a belief and sticking with it something to attack. Thats dictator talk, not democracy in action. I'm a born American and I live in Holland, so forgive me for feeling personally empowered, and justified within society to have and maintain not only my opinion, but my rights to have one and defend my voice, as well as yours. I even agree you have the right to be a small minded and short sighted person and to post in that way as you feel fit, but I won't be quiet because of it, or you. Thats the beauty of opinion, we all have at least one, and they are all valid, even when proved wrong, that seems unacceptable to some people.
 08/25/2011 11:53:04 AM · #92
I think amsterdam misread the romance.
 08/25/2011 12:11:15 PM · #93
Originally posted by tnun:
I think amsterdam misread the romance.


I agree
08/25/2011 12:15:23 PM · #94
Originally posted by amsterdamman:
Originally posted by rugman1969:
Why is this thread still going? Everyone has their own voting style. If you don't want a possible DNMC from me, make sure you project in your image the challenge description. If you don't, I will give you a low vote and a DNMC. Simple. No one can change my mind on it. No one will sway my vote. If it is, it is. If you submit an entry in a "Cars" challenge, submit a car and I will vote accordingly. If you submit a truck, el camino, ranchero, jeep, etc... I will DNMC and vote a 1 or 2. Why is this so complicated?

Here is a great example of first saying everyone has their own voting style and then only seeing your own opinion and insisting that you are somehow more right than anyone else. I checked the beginning of the thread, it was not directed at you, and I do not think anyone really is trying to change anyones mind, merely discuss the concepts and hear others thoughts, its as if you do not even see anyone else here in the forum besides yourself. If you are done with the topic, and you certainly have given your own opinion quite strongly, then move on, enjoy the view, maybe others still want to contribute and continue the debate. Not everything has a simple answer.
BTW one reason its so complicated is I would call an El Cam a car, it was mostly a car and there were no SUV's yet and it sure as hell was no truck. Some people love rules and others breaking them. I say, lets keep this thread alive! I still do not understand what golden ideal you think you are protecting by voting harshly. Its just an online forum.


BTW, here is an explanation of the el camino TRUCK:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
See also: GMC Sprint / Caballero
This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2009)
Chevrolet El Camino
1972 Chevrolet El Camino SS
Manufacturer Chevrolet Division
of General Motors
Model years 1959–1960
1964–1987
Class Coupe utility
Layout FR layout
The Chevrolet El Camino is a coupe utility vehicle produced by the Chevrolet division of General Motors for the 1959–1960 model years in response to the success of its rival, Ford Ranchero. Production resumed for the 1964–1977 model years based on the Chevelle platform, continuing for the 1978–1987 model years based on the Malibu. Although based on corresponding Chevrolet car lines the vehicle is classified and titled in North America as a truck. GMC's badge engineered El Camino variant, the Sprint was introduced for the 1971 model year. Renamed Caballero in 1978, it too was produced through the 1987 model year. El Camino is Spanish for "the road" or, alternatively, "the path", or quite literally, "the walk".
Don't mess with me with vehicles, I was in the industry for 25 years. Get the facts straight before you guess at answers.

08/25/2011 01:26:36 PM · #95
Originally posted by rugman1969:
Originally posted by amsterdamman:
Originally posted by rugman1969:
Why is this thread still going? Everyone has their own voting style. If you don't want a possible DNMC from me, make sure you project in your image the challenge description. If you don't, I will give you a low vote and a DNMC. Simple. No one can change my mind on it. No one will sway my vote. If it is, it is. If you submit an entry in a "Cars" challenge, submit a car and I will vote accordingly. If you submit a truck, el camino, ranchero, jeep, etc... I will DNMC and vote a 1 or 2. Why is this so complicated?

Here is a great example of first saying everyone has their own voting style and then only seeing your own opinion and insisting that you are somehow more right than anyone else. I checked the beginning of the thread, it was not directed at you, and I do not think anyone really is trying to change anyones mind, merely discuss the concepts and hear others thoughts, its as if you do not even see anyone else here in the forum besides yourself. If you are done with the topic, and you certainly have given your own opinion quite strongly, then move on, enjoy the view, maybe others still want to contribute and continue the debate. Not everything has a simple answer.
BTW one reason its so complicated is I would call an El Cam a car, it was mostly a car and there were no SUV's yet and it sure as hell was no truck. Some people love rules and others breaking them. I say, lets keep this thread alive! I still do not understand what golden ideal you think you are protecting by voting harshly. Its just an online forum.


BTW, here is an explanation of the el camino TRUCK:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
See also: GMC Sprint / Caballero
This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2009)
Chevrolet El Camino
1972 Chevrolet El Camino SS
Manufacturer Chevrolet Division
of General Motors
Model years 1959–1960
1964–1987
Class Coupe utility
Layout FR layout
The Chevrolet El Camino is a coupe utility vehicle produced by the Chevrolet division of General Motors for the 1959–1960 model years in response to the success of its rival, Ford Ranchero. Production resumed for the 1964–1977 model years based on the Chevelle platform, continuing for the 1978–1987 model years based on the Malibu. Although based on corresponding Chevrolet car lines the vehicle is classified and titled in North America as a truck. GMC's badge engineered El Camino variant, the Sprint was introduced for the 1971 model year. Renamed Caballero in 1978, it too was produced through the 1987 model year. El Camino is Spanish for "the road" or, alternatively, "the path", or quite literally, "the walk".
Don't mess with me with vehicles, I was in the industry for 25 years. Get the facts straight before you guess at answers.


Once again, only your opinion counts, and I do so love your condescending tone, how dare I question you! You are now hung up on some minuscule point on wether the vehicle was registered as a car or a truck in the USA. It is based on a car line and classified as a truck for title purposes, pure gov't regulations at work needing to pick it for a legal reason. I'm sorry but you have no chance of ever convincing me those things were so much trucks and so little a car as to be a DNMC for your "Cars" example, and I will always feel you are a tiny minded critic for giving a great car image of a El Cam a 1 or a 2 as an entry into any "Cars" challenge. Has it occurred to you that some members do not live in the US? Some do not speak English as a first language. It pains me to hear the closed minded nature so often from my homeland. No one has said you are wrong, you are the one now quoting wiki to prove how right you are and how wrong I am. We all just deserve to be heard and respected as well. There should be more than enough respect to go around. I have my right to an opinion as well. But since you insist you are the one with the right opinion, I'm going to let this foolish chat fall away, for I have lost interest in it, and your opinions. Feel free to have them, feel free to whatever. I realize some of this thread has been sarcasm, but I fear not as much as would be healthy. I'm gonna bike into Amsterdam. Respect.
 08/25/2011 01:29:35 PM · #96
Originally posted by rugman1969:
If you submit a truck, el camino, ranchero, jeep, etc... I will DNMC and vote a 1 or 2. Why is this so complicated?

The El Camino is both a car and a truck. Or neither. It's as hard to classify as many entries. If you entered one I would certainly understand how the photographer felt it to fit.

BTW, I have entered a photo of a pickup truck in a cars challenge. It got three 1's, six 2's and six 3's. Also got some 8's, 9's and 10's and ended up doing fairly well in the high 5's. My interpretation of the spirit of the challenge was that personal 4 wheeled vehicles would count as cars. If it had been an 18 wheeler or other clearly commercial vehicle, then I would not have considered it as suiting the topic.
 08/25/2011 01:40:14 PM · #97
Originally posted by amsterdamman:
Is seems there is a view held by some people that all discussion leads to consensus, that there is, in fact, a correct answer. Their goal in life or art seems to be to find and achieve this one correct answer. I can only imagine the discomfort of having to endure so many opinions, when clearly, only one opinion can be the one true correct one. If the continued discussions about the many options we have for our opinions pains the readers so much, again, I suggest moving on, reading another post, joining one of the many extremest organizations that are thriving in these diversionary times. I find it interesting that to some people discussion is evil, opinions are things to be repressed and the freedom to have a belief and sticking with it something to attack. Thats dictator talk, not democracy in action. I'm a born American and I live in Holland, so forgive me for feeling personally empowered, and justified within society to have and maintain not only my opinion, but my rights to have one and defend my voice, as well as yours. I even agree you have the right to be a small minded and short sighted person and to post in that way as you feel fit, but I won't be quiet because of it, or you. Thats the beauty of opinion, we all have at least one, and they are all valid, even when proved wrong, that seems unacceptable to some people.


But I can't find any other extremist organizations that I like as much as this one. <3
 08/25/2011 01:41:40 PM · #98
one man's DNMC is another man's Nobel. had a chance at the camino once. shucks.
 08/25/2011 01:47:08 PM · #99
Originally posted by rugman1969:
If you submit a truck, el camino, ranchero, jeep, etc... I will DNMC and vote a 1 or 2. Why is this so complicated?

And how would you handle a picture of a boxcar, a flatcar, a streetcar, elevator car ... why not celebrate rather than punish the ability to interpret a challenge description with a degree of creativity rather than trying to judge 100 nearly identical images ...?
 08/25/2011 01:48:38 PM · #100
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by rugman1969:
If you submit a truck, el camino, ranchero, jeep, etc... I will DNMC and vote a 1 or 2. Why is this so complicated?

And how would you handle a picture of a boxcar, a flatcar, a streetcar, elevator car ... why not celebrate rather than punish the ability to interpret a challenge description with a degree of creativity rather than trying to judge 100 nearly identical images ...?

+1
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