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06/16/2011 06:54:01 PM · #1
I've read the DPC terms and conditions about copyright, but I wasn't sure it covered the following issue. DPC has requested that I submit a photo for validation, which means I would be sending them a RAW file. I wanted to know where on the DPC website it states that ownership of the RAW file and, for that matter, jpeg images remains with the photographer? Also, where does it say that DPC would destroy the RAW file after validating the photo entry? I sell stock photos, so I don't usually give out my RAW files or full-size photos unless to a buyer and under contract. Thanks for your consideration.
06/16/2011 07:05:38 PM · #2
Originally posted by weheh:

I've read the DPC terms and conditions about copyright, but I wasn't sure it covered the following issue. DPC has requested that I submit a photo for validation, which means I would be sending them a RAW file. I wanted to know where on the DPC website it states that ownership of the RAW file and, for that matter, jpeg images remains with the photographer? Also, where does it say that DPC would destroy the RAW file after validating the photo entry? I sell stock photos, so I don't usually give out my RAW files or full-size photos unless to a buyer and under contract. Thanks for your consideration.

Section 6.2 of the Terms of Use (link at bottom of every page) covers dpchallenge.com's licensing of your information. It says:
"6.2 You hereby grant DPChallenge.com a nonexclusive, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right to exercise any rights you have in the Member Information and Media, and otherwise to make use of the Member Information and Media (including publishing, disseminating, broadcasting, manipulating, reproducing, editing, translating, performing, modifying, or displaying any part of the Member Information) and/or Media alone or as part of other work in any form, media, or technology whether now new known or hereafter developed, to enable DPChallenge.com to continue the specific operation or marketing of the site. This includes, but is certainly not limited to email "newsletters."
"
You always have the option to not submit the requested original for validation (note - it does not have to be a RAW file, but it does have to be the original from the camera, so if you only shoot RAW, yes, it would have to be the RAW) and allow your photo to be DQ'd.
As a member here for several years, I have never seen anything that would indicate that dpchallenge.com's operators have or would do anything that would infringe on their photographer's intellectual property. Past history is, of course, no predictor of future results. I do know of instances where others have stolen dpchallenge members' entries and represented them as their own work - and dpchallenge has attempted to address this in various ways, including optional watermark copyright notices placed over the image.

Message edited by author 2011-06-16 19:06:46.
06/16/2011 07:10:13 PM · #3
They really just need to see it to prove you abided by all the rules.
06/16/2011 07:21:54 PM · #4
Originally posted by Judi:

They really just need to see it to prove you abided by all the rules.


I understand. However, by what method can DPC validate other than by uploading the RAW file and thereby giving away the original?
06/16/2011 07:28:09 PM · #5
Originally posted by weheh:

Originally posted by Judi:

They really just need to see it to prove you abided by all the rules.


I understand. However, by what method can DPC validate other than by uploading the RAW file and thereby giving away the original?


They can't.
06/16/2011 07:29:54 PM · #6
Originally posted by dtremain:

Originally posted by weheh:

I've read the DPC terms and conditions about copyright, but I wasn't sure it covered the following issue. DPC has requested that I submit a photo for validation, which means I would be sending them a RAW file. I wanted to know where on the DPC website it states that ownership of the RAW file and, for that matter, jpeg images remains with the photographer? Also, where does it say that DPC would destroy the RAW file after validating the photo entry? I sell stock photos, so I don't usually give out my RAW files or full-size photos unless to a buyer and under contract. Thanks for your consideration.

Section 6.2 of the Terms of Use (link at bottom of every page) covers dpchallenge.com's licensing of your information. It says:
"6.2 You hereby grant DPChallenge.com a nonexclusive, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right to exercise any rights you have in the Member Information and Media, and otherwise to make use of the Member Information and Media (including publishing, disseminating, broadcasting, manipulating, reproducing, editing, translating, performing, modifying, or displaying any part of the Member Information) and/or Media alone or as part of other work in any form, media, or technology whether now new known or hereafter developed, to enable DPChallenge.com to continue the specific operation or marketing of the site. This includes, but is certainly not limited to email "newsletters."
"
You always have the option to not submit the requested original for validation (note - it does not have to be a RAW file, but it does have to be the original from the camera, so if you only shoot RAW, yes, it would have to be the RAW) and allow your photo to be DQ'd.
As a member here for several years, I have never seen anything that would indicate that dpchallenge.com's operators have or would do anything that would infringe on their photographer's intellectual property. Past history is, of course, no predictor of future results. I do know of instances where others have stolen dpchallenge members' entries and represented them as their own work - and dpchallenge has attempted to address this in various ways, including optional watermark copyright notices placed over the image.


Thanks. I have read 6.2. And yes, of course, DQ is always an option. If DPC uses only large thumbnails, then Section 6.2 is not an issue. But an 18MP full res original RAW file is something entirely different. I have no great expectations of making any $ from any of my photos (though I have in the past). This is more a matter of principle. I do not want DPC competing with me on stock with my own photo.

I see no provision for DPC destroying our full-res RAWs once validation has been achieved. Nor do I see them revoking rights to our full-res RAWs.

Hopefully, DPC will not DQ me while I consider this issue. I lost the last couple of days because I was in the ER.
06/16/2011 07:33:17 PM · #7
Originally posted by weheh:

Originally posted by dtremain:

Originally posted by weheh:

I've read the DPC terms and conditions about copyright, but I wasn't sure it covered the following issue. DPC has requested that I submit a photo for validation, which means I would be sending them a RAW file. I wanted to know where on the DPC website it states that ownership of the RAW file and, for that matter, jpeg images remains with the photographer? Also, where does it say that DPC would destroy the RAW file after validating the photo entry? I sell stock photos, so I don't usually give out my RAW files or full-size photos unless to a buyer and under contract. Thanks for your consideration.

Section 6.2 of the Terms of Use (link at bottom of every page) covers dpchallenge.com's licensing of your information. It says:
"6.2 You hereby grant DPChallenge.com a nonexclusive, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right to exercise any rights you have in the Member Information and Media, and otherwise to make use of the Member Information and Media (including publishing, disseminating, broadcasting, manipulating, reproducing, editing, translating, performing, modifying, or displaying any part of the Member Information) and/or Media alone or as part of other work in any form, media, or technology whether now new known or hereafter developed, to enable DPChallenge.com to continue the specific operation or marketing of the site. This includes, but is certainly not limited to email "newsletters."
"
You always have the option to not submit the requested original for validation (note - it does not have to be a RAW file, but it does have to be the original from the camera, so if you only shoot RAW, yes, it would have to be the RAW) and allow your photo to be DQ'd.
As a member here for several years, I have never seen anything that would indicate that dpchallenge.com's operators have or would do anything that would infringe on their photographer's intellectual property. Past history is, of course, no predictor of future results. I do know of instances where others have stolen dpchallenge members' entries and represented them as their own work - and dpchallenge has attempted to address this in various ways, including optional watermark copyright notices placed over the image.


Thanks. I have read 6.2. And yes, of course, DQ is always an option. If DPC uses only large thumbnails, then Section 6.2 is not an issue. But an 18MP full res original RAW file is something entirely different. I have no great expectations of making any $ from any of my photos (though I have in the past). This is more a matter of principle. I do not want DPC competing with me on stock with my own photo.

I see no provision for DPC destroying our full-res RAWs once validation has been achieved. Nor do I see them revoking rights to our full-res RAWs.

Hopefully, DPC will not DQ me while I consider this issue. I lost the last couple of days because I was in the ER.


Have you submitted a help ticket to them?
06/16/2011 07:34:20 PM · #8
I'd suggest contacting them and letting them know before your DQ comes automatically for not submitting in the time frame alloted. I've been here a long time, and I've never seen DPC sell anyone's files.
06/16/2011 07:40:28 PM · #9
Can i just say, i haven't seen anyone post in a thread here saying that their image that they had to use for validation has been used in a wrong way. just submit the dang photo. This whole thing is silly. if you are so worried about dpc being rude and stupid and using your RAW files in the wrong way, then dont submit great photos that you can get support and comments and faves on, or dont submit at all. its that simple. maybe its just me, but you have NOTHING to worry about. They simply want to look at your original file and make sure that you didn't cheat.

my god...

why would you want a photo that you are proud of to get dq'ed? seems silly to me.

Message edited by author 2011-06-16 19:41:47.
06/16/2011 08:36:22 PM · #10
I understand your concern. With all the theft happening on the net, it's a valid thought.

HOWEVER, there are far better photographer than you and I on this site. People who make a living with their photography. If they don't have a problem with it, that's good enough for me.
06/16/2011 09:03:06 PM · #11
If DPC had ever abused an original submitted for validation, I'm sure someone would have found out by now, and that would probably have been the end of the site.
06/16/2011 09:21:14 PM · #12
Originally posted by DPC About page:

To date, 134,262 users have submitted 259,184 photographs to 1403 challenges. 360,319 photographs have been submitted to 4,624 portfolios.

yeah, from time to time, some lo-res images have been ripped off. however, out of those 259,184 challenge entries, not a single hi-res image that has been submitted for validation has ever been found its way out the backdoor and into anyone else's hands.

there have been a number of members who never overcame the fear of losing an image or sharing a limited copyright and subsequently stopped entering challenges. it's up to you, but personally, i wouldn't sweat it. you can always follow the advice that some other members have given through the years to not submit anything that you would care about losing. ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' idnic was a big believer in that. check out her portfolio and you might wonder how she could risk putting all those images out there where they could be stolen. bottom line, she did what she could to protect herself, but at the end of the day, she had more fun just entering and not worrying about it.
06/16/2011 09:31:14 PM · #13
LOL...I know where you're coming from with that cool "honey" photo on the front page ! However, I wouldn't worry too much about DPC ripping you off. Now, others from the internet may rip you off but to hold DPC responsible would not be fair. Displaying your images on any website will invite theft and unauthorized usage.

For what it's worth....in a few days, your photo will be off the front page ~~ and with the BILLIONS of photos on the internet, yours will likely become but a proton floating through the universe !

Edit: Oh...if ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' nightpixels tells you not to submit your raw file....don't listen !

Another edit: If DPC ever did claim ownership and make any money off of anyone's work, I would imagine it would be the end of this site!

Message edited by author 2011-06-16 21:34:18.
06/16/2011 09:35:47 PM · #14
Hi all. Thanks for your responses. No I don't think I'm god's gift to photography. Or that I'm going to get rich on my photographs (though they do help support my habit). Or anything like that. And yes, I think DPC is a good site and seems to have an ethical track record. And I appreciate the community of users.

I'm not an attorney, but I have read a lot of contracts in my time and I have been witness to IP theft as well as claims to IP theft. I don't think I'm paranoid. But websites and their management are fluid and RAW files are forever.

As far as I'm concerned, my RAW files are my IP and I do not sign over copyright to anyone. I do grant usage rights. I've read a few books on stock contract law and I believe this to be standard practice, to the best of my understanding and interpretation.

From my reading of Section 6.2 of DPC's rights, they have all rights that I have to any Media I post on their website. (Media is not precisely defined in their Terms of Usage.) Therefore, I interpret their rights to include RAW files that I upload.

As I said, I have no problem with DPC having equivalent rights to an 800x640 image that I upload for everyone else to view, but not to a RAW file that I upload for validation purposes. This is my key point. I'm not one to necessarily follow the crowd just because everyone else is doing it. Just because better photographers than I are uploading their superb images doesn't mean it's a good idea. My layman's reading is that DPC is within their rights to set up a Getty-like stock photo business using our images in the future. With all the excellent images they have, that might be a really great idea. DPC today might be an elaborate Trojan horse, for all we know. And if they did, who knows, we all might stand to make a little $ ... or maybe not. I would rather have my rights now than a speculation of making future $ in an endeavor that I might not even wish to participate in.

I have contacted DPC regarding this question twice in the last 2 days. I have not received a reply. I do not wish to have my photo DQ'd. I believe that when I upload my RAW file, my challenge entry will be found to be valid. However, I think I'm entitled to a clarification of my rights before I am forced to upload a RAW image. Don't you?
06/16/2011 09:48:51 PM · #15
I think maintaining control of your own IP is a fair concern, but their ToS is their ToS. Pretty simple. You agree or you don't. I don't blame you for asking for clarification/modification, though.
06/16/2011 09:49:09 PM · #16
I think you're making a big fuss about nothing.

If someone is determined to use your image without license, they're going to use it, regardless of resolution. If you're that concerned, just don't put it on the net...anywhere.

In any case, this is the kind of concern that you should have brought up BEFORE submitting an image. The terms haven't changed in the time period between your submission and the request for verification. If you didn't like the rules, you shouldn't have played.
06/16/2011 09:55:05 PM · #17
oh, good lord. the site's been around for almost 10 years with the same ownership/management and if you'd read the b*+chin threads you know nothing's gonna change.

sure, it's easy to get to your interpretation of the ToS, but you really need to consider just why it's there: basically to protect the integrity of the challenge results by insuring that images don't get deleted, causing rankings to change. there have been only a handful of instances where images have had to be removed, but, all the same, nobody has been hurt by 'sharing the copyright' for this purpose.

as spork said, you shouldn't have entered in the first place if you weren't comfortable. if this is still too much to swallow, maybe hang out, enjoy the forums, vote and comment, and hold off entering again until you get comfortable...
06/16/2011 09:56:02 PM · #18
Originally posted by weheh:

Hi all. Thanks for your responses. No I don't think I'm god's gift to photography. Or that I'm going to get rich on my photographs (though they do help support my habit). Or anything like that. And yes, I think DPC is a good site and seems to have an ethical track record. And I appreciate the community of users.

I'm not an attorney, but I have read a lot of contracts in my time and I have been witness to IP theft as well as claims to IP theft. I don't think I'm paranoid. But websites and their management are fluid and RAW files are forever.

As far as I'm concerned, my RAW files are my IP and I do not sign over copyright to anyone. I do grant usage rights. I've read a few books on stock contract law and I believe this to be standard practice, to the best of my understanding and interpretation.

From my reading of Section 6.2 of DPC's rights, they have all rights that I have to any Media I post on their website. (Media is not precisely defined in their Terms of Usage.) Therefore, I interpret their rights to include RAW files that I upload.

As I said, I have no problem with DPC having equivalent rights to an 800x640 image that I upload for everyone else to view, but not to a RAW file that I upload for validation purposes. This is my key point. I'm not one to necessarily follow the crowd just because everyone else is doing it. Just because better photographers than I are uploading their superb images doesn't mean it's a good idea. My layman's reading is that DPC is within their rights to set up a Getty-like stock photo business using our images in the future. With all the excellent images they have, that might be a really great idea. DPC today might be an elaborate Trojan horse, for all we know. And if they did, who knows, we all might stand to make a little $ ... or maybe not. I would rather have my rights now than a speculation of making future $ in an endeavor that I might not even wish to participate in.

I have contacted DPC regarding this question twice in the last 2 days. I have not received a reply. I do not wish to have my photo DQ'd. I believe that when I upload my RAW file, my challenge entry will be found to be valid. However, I think I'm entitled to a clarification of my rights before I am forced to upload a RAW image. Don't you?


I can appreciate what you're saying, but my advice....submit your original RAW file before you lose the ribbon. The time to have been most concerned about this was before you submitted to a challenge. It's not exactly the best timing to start worrying about it. Of course if you feel your ribbon is less important than any money you MIGHT make off this particular shot than don't submit it. I can think of two three or four people who would be most happy about that. A person who gains a higher ribbon, a person who gets a ribbon, one HM winner who moves up 1 notch higher, one person who just gained a HM, and one person who just made it to the top 10. Want to make them all happy? Then go for it. :)

PS...I wasn't in the challenge so I gain nothing. LOL.

Dave
06/16/2011 10:05:27 PM · #19
Originally posted by weheh:

My layman's reading is that DPC is within their rights to set up a Getty-like stock photo business using our images in the future...DPC today might be an elaborate Trojan horse, for all we know.


Damn, you're on to them. They set up DPC 9 years ago lying in wait for your bird portfolio... their nearly 5000 birds aren't enough for world stock photo domination.
06/16/2011 10:14:12 PM · #20
Is this conversation really going on. You should have read the ToS before you submitted your first pic in 2007. I guess you weren't worried about your 4.4 making any money huh?
06/16/2011 10:27:31 PM · #21
Richard has a legit question and we should not jump on him for this. Like others have said, the photo is already on the site. It may have been downloaded by others. If someone wants to peddle it on another site or at the local bingo games, there is nothing he can do about it at this point. (except file suit after the fact)

DPC is not going to rip you off. Do I know this for sure? No...however, would I have entered this wonderful photo if I thought for one second that DPC would use it to make money without my permission?


06/16/2011 10:36:18 PM · #22
Read the legal notice at the bottom of this (and every) page: "All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission." We use original images for validation— nothing else— and they remain accessible to the SC indefinitely. Every once in a while those old originals come in handy when we need to compare EXIF or other characteristics of a particular camera model, but it's taboo for us to use them otherwise (akin to your credit card company abusing your financial info or the IRS using your SS#). Even in cases where the SC is loudly and falsely accused of some horrible validation mistake, we won't post a low-resolution version of the original without the photographer's permission. Don't worry about it— no SC member would EVER release or misuse an original submitted for validation.
06/16/2011 11:11:53 PM · #23
My goodness. I seem to be stirring up a lot of heated assumptions that seem to me to be off target. Seems par for the course for me. Mea culpa.

I've done a few of these challenges for fun and for the experience, not for ego aggrandizement as many imply incorrectly. Perhaps they're projecting their own feelings on me? I have been taking photos for over 40 years, so you can trust me when I say I am my own worst critic. That said, constructive criticism and useful tips are always welcome.

Let me be clear: I do not distrust DPC. I just think there is a gray zone regarding usage rights to RAW files uploaded for verification purposes. I believe DPC users should retain rights to their original photo files, especially since they aren't being displayed by the site. I'm OK with the site keeping perpetual rights to the images we post for challenge purposes because they need to maintain site continuity over long periods of time. But the original RAW files should not to be covered under those terms. As written in section 6.2, they are. Since DPC should have no need for those files except for verification purposes, they should waive all rights to the original images and destroy their copies after use. What do you think?
06/16/2011 11:24:39 PM · #24
Originally posted by weheh:

Since DPC should have no need for those files except for verification purposes, they should waive all rights to the original images and destroy their copies after use. What do you think?


Thanks scalvert for your response. OK, perhaps not destroy the files, but certainly not have distribution or display rights. Anyway, I'm satisfied that this is probably a tempest in a teapot and that I better upload or get voted off the island ;-). I think I'll be a wussy and upload. That said, I think the site's Terms of Use should be updated to be clearer. For instance, I couldn't find an explicit definition of "Member Information and Media" or even individually of "Member Information" or of "Media" in the TOU.

Signing off.
06/16/2011 11:34:01 PM · #25
Originally posted by weheh:

... certainly not have distribution or display rights.

We're already prohibited from distributing or displaying originals without permission per the copyright notice at the bottom of every page.
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