Software qualification - legal or not

06/15/2011 05:09:05 PM · #1

When using plug-ins such as Topaz or NIK is there a rule somewhere that states exactly what we can and cannot do in basic or advanced editing? Or how do you know what's legal?
I've been DQd for adding clip art to my entry and the only thing I did was hit one button in Nik so I'm assuming that was the problem.
How was I supposed to know? Is the rule subjective as it stands? I had no idea this would be a problem in advanced editing.
The preset I used was Yellowed I. Thanks.

06/15/2011 05:10:23 PM · #2

Did it add a border?

06/15/2011 05:20:03 PM · #3

It was advanced editing. It added a border. Others have passed with Nik borders in basic.

06/15/2011 05:33:05 PM · #4

Well, I've had the same dq. Twice (though it was some time ago). Once in advanced and once in basic. And yes, it is subjective. I was told that straight up. Some are acceptable, others aren't.

Message edited by author 2011-06-15 17:35:19.

06/15/2011 05:37:18 PM · #5

There should be a list. This isn't fair, imo

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

06/15/2011 05:42:24 PM · #6

I remember feeling the same way. Go read the notes in the second dq...

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

06/15/2011 06:10:41 PM · #7

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

There should be a list. This isn't fair, imo

I've asked for that in the past but the response has always been it's too much work. I also suggested an SC Rulings Page, but that never got any traction either.

06/15/2011 06:10:54 PM · #8

My other subjective DQ was for the art rule. I think we work too hard to be put through a process where the stated rules are not clear enough to follow. And the result is that a DQ is issued fir something you can't even understand. Any suggestions?

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

06/15/2011 06:12:31 PM · #9

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by PennyStreet:
There should be a list. This isn't fair, imo

I've asked for that in the past but the response has always been it's too much work. I also suggested an SC Rulings Page, but that never got any traction either.

Great suggestion

LevT

Olympus OM-1

06/15/2011 06:43:37 PM · #10

my understanding is that Yellowed 1 preset in Nik SilverEfex is a combination of standard global adjustments, yellow cast (certainly legal), added simple grain (legal, I have always assumed) and one of standard "fancy" borders (that would be the biggest question mark, but as far as I know from

Bear_Music, these borders have been vetted and approved by SC). Given the popularity of Nik software among DPCers, I think it is of paramount importance that SC explains the exact reason of this disqualification.

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

06/15/2011 06:59:17 PM · #11

This was validated back in February. I used the yellow 1 preset in Silver Efex Pro 2.

jamesgoss

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Tamron AF 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di II for Canon

06/15/2011 07:18:28 PM · #12

I have to agree that the rules are extremely unclear at times.

[quote]you may not: add graphics, clip art, computer-rendered images or parts of other photographs to your entry or its border during editing[/quote]

With the way the rules are written now, ANY border can be argued as being against the rules. There is an inherit graphic quality to any border added due to the fundamental qualities of line. Thin border-oh, you want me to interpret this as being dainty, frail, or fragile.... OR you want me to feel overwhelmed and small. Thick Border? you want the image to feel bold and strong.

This doesn't even include color.
Black = you want me to view the image up close, see the details and be welcome to explore the individual elements.
White = You want me to stand back a few feet and view the image as a whole, a unification of the parts, or a focus on the subject matter, not the details.

Back to the original idea though,

I would love the list of edits that are legal / not, to be updated, for example:

I asked a month ago or so if the high-pass method of sharpening was legal under basic - (filter>>high pass, then set to hard light) - and was told that because it requires a new layer, that no, it's not legal in basic. ... but nothing even mentions multiple layers except for adjustments layers. Does it change in legality because it's also able to be accomplished in a single layer (via edit-Fade)?

Irregular borders are implied with the lasso tool, but does that count as a graphic? what about blurred borders?

--
This isn't meant as a stab to anyone in particular, I do wish that rules were a bit more clearly defined, especially since challenges are timed based, and as users, we don't always have 2 days to wait for clarification and validation.

Tamron AF 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di II for Canon

06/15/2011 08:02:04 PM · #13

Originally posted by jamesgoss:

I asked a month ago or so if the high-pass method of sharpening was legal under basic - (filter>>high pass, then set to hard light) - and was told that because it requires a new layer, that no, it's not legal in basic. ... but nothing even mentions multiple layers except for adjustments layers. Does it change in legality because it's also able to be accomplished in a single layer (via edit-Fade)?

The rule for high pass sharpening is clear. Normal blend mode only.

FYI in basic:
You May
"add a border to the outside edge of your entry. Your border must be distinct and clearly recognizable as a border."

jamesgoss

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

06/15/2011 08:34:42 PM · #14

Originally posted by bspurgeon:

Originally posted by jamesgoss:
I asked a month ago or so if the high-pass method of sharpening was legal under basic - (filter>>high pass, then set to hard light) - and was told that because it requires a new layer, that no, it's not legal in basic. ... but nothing even mentions multiple layers except for adjustments layers. Does it change in legality because it's also able to be accomplished in a single layer (via edit-Fade)?

The rule for high pass sharpening is clear. Normal blend mode only.

FYI in basic:
You May
"add a border to the outside edge of your entry. Your border must be distinct and clearly recognizable as a border."

Yes, normal mode only, I'm aware of that. What's confusing though is that the rules also state that you may "use filters or stand-alone utilities designed to preserve image integrity (such as Neat Image, Unsharp Mask, Dust & Scratches, and color correction tools). These filters must be applied uniformly to the entire image, and must not be used in such a way that their use becomes a feature. No �effects� filters may be applied to your image, with the exception of Noise and Gaussian Blur."

I would have --wrongly-- assumed that this sharpening method would have been allowed, as it indeed does fit within that category.

I think the rules become more clear AFTER you've been here a while and see a few DQ's occur. For example, this DQ of my own is clearly a border:

now,to me what's unclear is the definition of "graphic". Is any irregular border graphic under basic? --under advanced? What about multiple borders? Blurred and faded borders? borders made with a brush instead of a marquee selection? borders made with a mask? If we go back to the rules, the rules of what constitutes a border is phrased exactly the same between basic + adv.

it's these sort of things that aren't addressed in the current rules, to which the original poster (and several other of us) would like amendment made.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

06/15/2011 08:49:36 PM · #15

It's not which tools are allowed but more how they are applied. The SC aren't experts and there's too many pieces of software, plugins etc to reasonably be able to list all AND indicate how far to take it. That last bit depends on which image it's being applied to. The safest bet, if you're unsure, ask the SC prior to a challenge by submitting before and after images. Don't do this a short time before rollover and expect an answer though.

Samsung Galaxy S21, S21+, S21 Ultra

06/15/2011 09:10:21 PM · #16

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

True. Sort of. We suspect Penny's DQ was for the same preset that Wendy had validated. So, an error was made either with Wendy, or with Penny. Both decisions can't stand based on the information we have.

ETA:

Message edited by author 2011-06-15 21:11:57.

Bear_Music

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

06/15/2011 09:17:04 PM · #17

I understand the reluctance to allow "clip art" in competition images. But I think we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It would be easy enough to modify the rules to allow irregular borders of the sort these plugins are creating. Or just forbid them altogether. This not knowing if you will pass muster with the particular quorum of SC who happen to be ruling on *your* image is ridiculous.

I remember all the way back in 2005 suggesting we needed a book of decisions like golf or yachting have, so there can be consistency.

R.

Samsung Galaxy S21, S21+, S21 Ultra

06/15/2011 09:20:59 PM · #18

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Agreed! At least anything with a one click button for a border should be legal for at least advanced editing.

smardaz

06/15/2011 09:27:19 PM · #19

Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I understand the reluctance to allow "clip art" in competition images. But I think we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It would be easy enough to modify the rules to allow irregular borders of the sort these plugins are creating. Or just forbid them altogether. This not knowing if you will pass muster with the particular quorum of SC who happen to be ruling on *your* image is ridiculous.

I remember all the way back in 2005 suggesting we needed a book of decisions like golf or yachting have, so there can be consistency.

R.

Agreed! At least anything with a one click button for a border should be legal for at least advanced editing.

sounds like a great idea but of course, that would involve something changing here sooooooo............

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70 f2.8 L IS

06/15/2011 09:34:43 PM · #20

The rules need adaptation, that's true. What *can't* be done is to list all the potential software and individual tools within that software, and rule "legal" or "illegal" in Basic. The number of rulings would be astronomical. Heck, it would take a dozen people working full time a year or more to complete... then start over, 'cause most of the software has been updated.
A long time a go we started a task to convert the Basic Rules to a results-based ruleset like Advanced. If that could ever get completed, it would go a *long* way toward eliminating these issues with Basic. It could also eliminate the weird little corners of the rules where things that are legal in Basic would be illegal in Advanced.
There are other things that need addressing too, like the question of ever-more-capable in-camera processing; Is this "post" or not?
I'd really like to see a set timetable for getting some of this stuff done, and a commitment to stick to it.

Bear_Music

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

06/15/2011 09:39:00 PM · #21

Originally posted by Kelli:

Agreed! At least anything with a one click button for a border should be legal for at least advanced editing.

Actually, for the rule as currently written you could argue the other way: a "one-click button" can be construed as "clip art". But with Nik Silver Efex Pro 2.0, it's NOT one-click: you can adjust the size of the border space, the size of the black encroachment, and the roughness/smoothness of the effect, so it's user-driven and it is not, by definition, "clip art" except in the sense that any action or preset might be.

This is my beef with what's happening: I can understand not wanting to allow, say, clip art of baroque gold frames. I totally understand that. But this is photographer-controlled definition of the desired edge of the image, and it seems to me to be a valid tool in the overall toolbox.

R.

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

06/15/2011 09:53:29 PM · #22

Originally posted by bspurgeon:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:
It's not which tools are allowed but more how they are applied. The SC aren't experts and there's too many pieces of software, plugins etc to reasonably be able to list all AND indicate how far to take it. That last bit depends on which image it's being applied to. The safest bet, if you're unsure, ask the SC prior to a challenge by submitting before and after images. Don't do this a short time before rollover and expect an answer though.

True. Sort of. We suspect Penny's DQ was for the same preset that Wendy had validated. So, an error was made either with Wendy, or with Penny. Both decisions can't stand based on the information we have.

ETA:

I vote the error was on Penny's DQ, not my validation. :D

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

06/15/2011 10:01:01 PM · #23

I think the SC are doing us a favor. It's allowing us the opportunity to get off the bullet train to tackyville.

Judi

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

06/15/2011 10:10:33 PM · #24

Originally posted by yanko:

I think the SC are doing us a favor. It's allowing us the opportunity to get off the bullet train to tackyville.

Yup...I agree with you there. We all go through the tacky stage one time or another but while they may look good for your own wall...they usually don't sit well in photo challenges. I would prefer to see plain standard borders or no borders at all. Very few images suit a border.