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05/31/2011 12:12:38 PM · #1 |
Have you ever wondered how many entries per month or per year, are they increasing or decreasing? Maybe you have wondered what the average mean score has been (what year or month was the highest or lowest). Or the how the average amount of votes and comments compare month-to-month an year-to-year. I have put together a spreadsheet that compares each year by months so you can see the trend from 2002 to present.
Take a look and see what you think. I find it interesting, you may too!
Enjoy
Scott |
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05/31/2011 12:16:32 PM · #2 |
| Participation is definitely trending down. |
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05/31/2011 12:25:27 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Participation is definitely trending down. |
But why is the Question.
Is it because of the economy, interest (or lack of), work, boredom, rut, etc.???
I know in my case it's my economic downturn.
anyone else care to debate the reason?
Message edited by author 2011-05-31 12:26:19. |
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05/31/2011 12:36:00 PM · #4 |
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05/31/2011 12:37:01 PM · #5 |
I think it's the natural cycle of things. One practical issue with a site like this is the number of good challenge topics. In the early days it would have been easy to come up with good, new topics. Eventually you run out or it is harder to generate them, espeically the technique topics like "Shallow Depth of Field" or "Leading Lines". "Rule of Thirds XIII" does not generate the interest that it did the first time around. Non-technique challenges become more and more esoteric and we wind up with a fair number of "What's in your Fridge?" topics.
That's not to say the site cannot still succeed, but there is an entropy that is natural and inevitable. |
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05/31/2011 12:41:36 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think it's the natural cycle of things. One practical issue with a site like this is the number of good challenge topics. In the early days it would have been easy to come up with good, new topics. Eventually you run out or it is harder to generate them, espeically the technique topics like "Shallow Depth of Field" or "Leading Lines". "Rule of Thirds XIII" does not generate the interest that it did the first time around. Non-technique challenges become more and more esoteric and we wind up with a fair number of "What's in your Fridge?" topics.
That's not to say the site cannot still succeed, but there is an entropy that is natural and inevitable. |
I would have to agree on the issue of topics. |
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05/31/2011 12:42:27 PM · #7 |
That's all quite interesting, Scott. Thanks!
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05/31/2011 12:49:56 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by SDW:
anyone else care to debate the reason? |
I'm sure there could be a thesis in that type of questions and if anyone could answer it there is money to me made in running corporate websites.
Some of the stuff that I suspect comes into it - hard to split what it is for me vs. a general and I will no doubt cross that line....
- The downturn as you mention is part of it.
- The period in question was when dSLR's came to the for and most of the serious photg will have already converted from film by now (not disparaging... I still shoot film but this is not the site for that is it) - so you have a trend of getting those in DPC when they are converting vs. now where there is less new blood because new adopters are far slower from here on out.
- Stale stuff.... This site is pretty static and lives off a very small core with a larger but still smaller outer ring. A lot of the people I first found on this have moved on and the replacement rate is slow.
- There is much more site competition now then there once was..... I know I spend a lot of time on flickr with various sub groups.
- Work is out of control stupid, so time is a biggie for those of us in companies that have layed off thousands..... since the work still has to happen. |
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05/31/2011 12:58:40 PM · #9 |
When I joined in 2005 there was a half price membership thing going on, while I'm quite sure that doesn't account for all of the growth around that time it may well have had some effect on it.
Message edited by author 2011-05-31 12:59:10. |
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05/31/2011 01:18:48 PM · #10 |
| the decline is not stopping. need fresh new website, new appeal, new idea and new way to communicate over social network |
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05/31/2011 01:28:40 PM · #11 |
The year I joined was the most people entered to challenges... that explains the complains we had that time... and now it's between 2003 2004 level.
Reason:  Langdon's almost zero interest doing something about this website, which would be (and still could) a gold mine!
and let me tell you something, one year shoulder-straps giveaway for FS winners is NOT "doing something".. I probably have done more than that for years.
So, Langdon sir, I think it's time to either do something about this website (enhance it, even bring back the thing called "DPL"), or just hand it over someone could do something about it. |
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05/31/2011 01:59:04 PM · #12 |
Just a non-scientific observation on my part.... But it looks to me that the scores during last year's DPL, were higher than the scores during the same time the previous year. Perhaps, just perhaps it was not buddy voting, but people trying harder....
At the same time, I do not think it is fair to characterize Langdon's interest as zero. The site by any account does not provide a living for anyone. The SC is strung out across many time zones. This is not a recipe for a rapidly responsive organization. That which does change, seems conveniently forgotten after a bit. I remember people screaming for more than 640 pixels, more challenges, well they did happen...
Do we get everything we want? No. But then we aren't paying that kind of money... |
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05/31/2011 02:05:35 PM · #13 |
From what the data tells me there's not a problem with the scores. Voters are still voting consistent. But it is hard to deny that there is a problem with entries, votes, and comments.
Something needs to be done to excite people to enter, vote, and comment.
First suggestion (just a thought).
1. With the current level of entries limit the amount of entries per challenge to 100.
This would make voting 100% of the challenge without getting burnt out.
2. Have an criteria you have to meet to be able to enter a challenge. Such as x-# of votes/comments to enter the next challenge.
3. Have a criteria you must meet to be able to enter the monthly free studies. Maybe base it on your participation in weekly challenges (entries, votes, and comments).
Just some ideas. Some maybe good and others bad. I am one of the ones that has lost enthusiasm over the last year or two. So I'm talking about myself. Sorry! |
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05/31/2011 02:10:31 PM · #14 |
Some guy who knows how to program php and web pages, sits and writes code, uploads it with a newly purchased domain name... hey, what'ya know, people start to come in and pay. After a while, he starts to have other things in his life, such as new full-time job, marriage etc... he just stops by to the website from time to time to check out, gets his monthly checks, good for him, but each time someone says something about improvement, he shrugs his shoulder "I;ll get to it when I have time"
There was a peak season in 2006, what I would do is, spend a month or two to create my online shop first, selling shirts and hats, and mugs... See the huge interest in DPL and start a side coding, even hiring someone to do that, which would keep two separate entities, DPL and DPC separate. While this means getting more paid members, which means more income, i would then start taking ads, from better companies which pays more.
Anywho, it's just me. I still enter challenges and complain about stuff... I don't really care, my life ain't better than DPC, that much I know... one step forward, three steps backward! |
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05/31/2011 02:48:25 PM · #15 |
There's another scenario that comes into play here, too.
A couple of guys start a site where they and their friends can play and try to perfect their digital camera skills in this new digital world. A few other people discover the site and are permitted to play as well. A small membership fee is charged for slightly more privileges and to pay for the equipment it takes to run the place.
It goes along like this for a while, and then is discovered by a photography magazine with a large subscription base. Wow, many people are joining in all of a sudden. The site goes crazy for a while with new people, new ideas, new concepts, and a whole new feel, most of which was good.
Then more digital photography sites come on board, and grow and people who like the way these sites focus on particular aspects join them and leave DPC. Or otherwise 'get a life' and take up crocheting or weight lifting.
So, this site contracts again to a slower moving, but still exciting and challenging site to some.
Wish list? There's always one, isn't there.
Another round of DPL? Sure. But there must be enormous challenges in running the league or these guys would be doing it. Or they may just have also decided to 'get a life' and just leave the site open and alive, as is.
9And  SDW, you have a wonderful way with figures and making them speak. Thank you. Even this math-challenged individual can see the patterns.) |
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05/31/2011 03:41:21 PM · #16 |
There's an old saying in IT... "If it works, don't touch it"...
IMHO, what really matters (to me) is the essence of the site, its "mission"... As far as that interests me, I'll be coming back... And DPC works for me, in many levels...
I agree changes can be made (and would be good, don't get me wrong) to the design, the look and feel, some more updated features can be added... But the essence, the intention of DPC remains the same...
People eventually get tired of everything, the looks, the functionality, everything, because it is impossible to be changing every couple of months... In this world whatever is new today, is old tomorrow...
The question would be more like why did these people leave and why the people that is still here, well, is still here? I'm more interested on hearing the answer from the second group... I think that has to do with other things beyond the look or functionality of the site...
My 2 cents... :)
Message edited by author 2011-05-31 15:43:00. |
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05/31/2011 04:47:57 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by Louis:
Participation is definitely trending down. |
But why is the Question. |
The only reasonable answer is the state of the service being sold, that is, the website.
Very little has changed at this website since 2006 when I joined, and I suspect the changes between 2002 and 2005 were as small. (I don't count moving around challenge descriptions, adding volume to already-offered features like disk space, or tweaking rule sets as significant value-added changes for customers.)
Customers will bleed when the perceived value is lost. In this site's industry -- socially-driven website services -- I would imagine it to be absolutely vital to stay on top of the cutting edge of the industry, if not the bleeding edge, if the service is to remain relevant to a critical mass of users.
Places like Flickr, Facebook, and even the upstart 1x.com left this site behind long ago in those arenas. That there is history in this site is not disputed. That there is still value in what's done here, sure. That by simply going with its own status quo year over year, and not adapting to the Facebook/JavaScript/Ajax framework the web now inhabits... well, that will surely be the thing that damages the bottom line most of all. It's never a good idea to rest on laurels, no matter how successful something is. |
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05/31/2011 05:03:50 PM · #18 |
I used to publish semi-annual reports on site participation, when I was on Site Council. The reports included data on entries and votes per challenge broken out by Member vs. Open, number of paid members, etc.
Since about 2007, the trend has been in an undesirable direction on almost all metrics. I believe Louis has nailed the root cause. Other sites have added features and passed us by. The one thing that DPC has that is still class-leading, IMO, is the challenge system. It is by far the fairest system I have encountered.
The competitions are not for everyone, however, and even those folks that compete intensely for a while tend to burn out. When folks are done competing actively, what's to hold them here?
We need to re-examine the value proposition, and update the site to provide value in today's marketplace. It's not 2005 anymore.
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05/31/2011 05:19:27 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
The year I joined was the most people entered to challenges... that explains the complains we had that time... and now it's between 2003 2004 level.
Reason: Langdon's almost zero interest doing something about this website, which would be (and still could) a gold mine!
and let me tell you something, one year shoulder-straps giveaway for FS winners is NOT "doing something".. I probably have done more than that for years.
So, Langdon sir, I think it's time to either do something about this website (enhance it, even bring back the thing called "DPL"), or just hand it over someone could do something about it. |
Nail on head.
Not sure even another DPL would help after the non eventful ending to the last one.
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05/31/2011 05:23:02 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by SDW:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think it's the natural cycle of things. One practical issue with a site like this is the number of good challenge topics. In the early days it would have been easy to come up with good, new topics. Eventually you run out or it is harder to generate them, espeically the technique topics like "Shallow Depth of Field" or "Leading Lines". "Rule of Thirds XIII" does not generate the interest that it did the first time around. Non-technique challenges become more and more esoteric and we wind up with a fair number of "What's in your Fridge?" topics.
That's not to say the site cannot still succeed, but there is an entropy that is natural and inevitable. |
I would have to agree on the issue of topics. |
It's not that topics are harder to generate. The community is still coming up with good topics, but they are not being used. |
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05/31/2011 06:08:06 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
It's not that topics are harder to generate. The community is still coming up with good topics, but they are not being used. |
There have been 1,387 challenges completed so far.
Of the last 20 challenges completed, eight had topics which were being used for the first time, and of the twelve repeats, nine were on either their second or third iteration, meaning it could potentially be as long as four years or longer since it was last used.
For those of us who have been here for a long time, every topic will seem familiar. I really had to struggle with the "Never Before Seen ..." challenge -- with over 875 entries so far I have a hard time not repeating myself no matter what the topic is.
But for newbies, all the challenges will be new, though I can see where the kind of talk I often see around here might make them less-than-inspired to enter.
I think one of the main problems is that there are fewer people coming by the site, partly because of competition from other sites and partly because I don't think we do much advertising or recruiting, and when they do get here they see pages full of bitching about how this site -- once "so great when I got here," now isn't because it's the same as it ever was ... |
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05/31/2011 06:18:57 PM · #22 |
if you wanted some statistical indicators, analyze the forum participation. look at the number of threads, the number of unique participants, and the forum sections. you'll see your core and your shrinking/fluctuating rings.
i'll agree with fritz as to the structure of the challenge system as being what completely separates dpc from any other challenge-based sites, but, beyond that, this place is technologically a mausoleum. and the forum search is so bad it wouldn't even make a good museum.
it's a shame to see so much potential so absolutely wasted. so many people who've had so much to offer over the years have moved on primarily because the site never evolved to give them any reason to stay. this site could have been flickr. it could have been dpreview. it could have been sportshooter. it could have been 'fotobook' ;-) hell, it could have been anything, but instead it is what it is which is pretty much what it was when i joined seven years ago: a place to learn the basics of digital photography and then move on.
i can't knock any of the things i've gotten from this place - especially the relationships and friendships i've made - but it's a shame lang and drew never learned how to harvest the talents and ideas of those who felt indebted to this place and were willing to give back all the things dpc needed in order to grow up. there is no telling how many business men and women, programmers, marketers, architects, what-have-ya's that have been ready to pitch in to help dpc flourish, only to have their offers fall on deaf ears...and that's the shame. and that is one thing that will probably never change. |
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05/31/2011 06:19:37 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
...they see pages full of bitching about how this site -- once "so great when I got here," now isn't because it's the same as it ever was ... |
When I joined 2006, the website was same as now. Nothing changed. We had complains about huge amount of entries per challenge and not able to vote on all because of that. We had suggestions for juried challenges once a while, adding other challenges, such as now with Thursdays (but one of the open challenges is gone for that).
I don't think we're bitching about how this site was better and now sucks, it never been different, and could be done a lot. I always come up to this same subject again and again, but have a DPC shop, get DPL running again, seems like some big names were interested in, and now they are gone. Make the thumbnails a little larger on front page, our monitors getting larger every year and seems like we need to get closer to our monitors to see thumbnails. Or add HM thumbnails or names as well... something that would keep things fresh each year.
1X sucked with black background... now they have white background, and I am giving it another try. Trust me when I say that, website UI is VERY important for me, before the content... I have to feel good about browsing it, before start reading stuff. After a while, this one gets little boring.
Also, if bitching is getting more and more, that means something should be done. Because the bitchers and the new people who sees those bitching will go away. In sales, you have to do whatever you have to do to keep your clients, instead of you start complaining about your clients. |
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05/31/2011 06:24:32 PM · #24 |
I blame it all on the "bar" getting moved to RANT! :P
I joined in 2006 and it was a very appealing site for me. I made life friends and have learned much, but still could learn more. I find, personally, that many of those now joining are joining more for getting validation on their abilities rather than for the learning possibilities...but what do I know.
I agree with Lois and others and because I read the whole damn thread before posting, I am now redundant. See Slippy's remarks. |
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05/31/2011 06:30:21 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
For those of us who have been here for a long time, every topic will seem familiar. I really had to struggle with the "Never Before Seen ..." challenge -- with over 875 entries so far I have a hard time not repeating myself no matter what the topic is. |
LOL, I do not have that problem...
Originally posted by GeneralE:
But for newbies, all the challenges will be new, though I can see where the kind of talk I often see around here might make them less-than-inspired to enter. |
Really? Honestly, I don't see near as much of the "topic bitching" as I used to. Of course, there are less folks to bitch!
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I think one of the main problems is that there are fewer people coming by the site, partly because of competition from other sites and partly because I don't think we do much advertising or recruiting, and when they do get here they see pages full of bitching about how this site -- once "so great when I got here," now isn't because it's the same as it ever was ... |
I agree regarding both the "fewer coming by" and "competition from other sites," mainly the latter. I don't think that there is any lack of positive word of mouth for DPC.
I do disagree that there are "pages full of bitching" about how it's not what it used to be. I still see a *lot* of positive posting about how much DPC has contributed to individual users' learning processes.
The real question here, the one only L can answer, is if the site will ever be dramatically improved. If not, we will continue to slowly lose members. At least the decrease in membership has slowed, and even stopped for a time. Still, we are at less than half of the paid membership of just three years ago. |
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