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07/12/2004 08:26:02 PM · #51 |
I am happy to see this discussion happening on a photography site, as the subjects we use and the way we portray them can provoke controversy. I'm sure that Kevin did not mean any harm, as he stated. But it is human nature for people to express their emotions, and photography brings emotions out.
In the end, I think the introduction of Kevin's photo into the purple challenge can be really beneficial, if not solely for the sake of discussion. If everyone can express their views in a tactful but honest manner, without having to worry about anyone criticizing their views, then we're accomplishing something.
And in my opinion, I appreciated this photo and rated it highly, purely for the abstract creativity to it. I honestly never thought of it as controversial at first, but am thankful to hear different views on it. |
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07/12/2004 08:27:11 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by pearcer:
Does this mean no more BLACK an WHITE photos because someone might just happen to see that there are connotations of racism in them?
I showed the photo to a "Black" friend of mine and he loved it. people should Stop trying to be goody 2 shoes and get on with life instead of trying to push a barrow about Black and White.
Personally I'm dissapointed, I thought that this site was about photography. |
That's a ridiculous notion, and once again, dismissing that this image was in fact extremely reminiscent of blackface. Have you not followed the thread? Why is everyone so quick to jump to the defense of a stupid photograph and dismiss the genuine, legitimage hurt feelings the image caused. What if this were a fabulous photo that contained a Swastika? After all, the Holocaust was 60 years ago. Shouldn't we just move on? That is what this thread is sounding like to my ears. The kind thing to do would have been for Kevin to aknowledge the feelings of the people who were offended, make a gracious apology to the effect that it was a misunderstanding, and then move on. Instead, the majority seems to be placing greater importance on soothing Kevin's ego and acusing those who were offended (or at least aknowledging the potential for offense) of overeacting and getting their panties in a wad. Anyone who has not been following this thread in its entirety should really read further back before responding. Or look up the history of blackface in America.
To negate the power this image has to emotionally impact a group of people is to negate the power of photography.
BTW, Pearcer, I noticed that you live in Australia. The black people in Australia have a different history of racism than blacks in the US so your friend would not have understood the cultural reference of blackface.
Message edited by author 2004-07-12 20:35:40.
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07/12/2004 08:32:48 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by bledford:
I'm having a hard time with this notion that the photographer should be apologizing for anything. What if the intent of the photographer was to portray racism? Who is anyone to judge the merit of artist's intent?
The fact that so much discussion has arisen and that some were offended is a testament to the decency of the photo as a piece of art. This is all, of course, my opinion and subject to gross inaccuracy. :P |
I think it would have been courteous for him to simply say, "I'm so sorry if I offended some people. I was unaware of the history of blackface and absolutely no offense was intended." It would have been a very simple thing to do. I don't blame Kevin for his ignorance of Black History. But when one makes a faux pas, common courtesy demands a polite apology.
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07/12/2004 08:36:28 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Bassie:
Once again, it was not my intent to offend anybody.
Bassie |
He did say it wasn't his intent to offend anybody. As far as apologizing there is really no reason for that as he did not have the intent to offend anyone.
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07/12/2004 08:43:38 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
I think it would have been courteous for him to simply say, "I'm so sorry if I offended some people. I was unaware of the history of blackface and absolutely no offense was intended." It would have been a very simple thing to do. I don't blame Kevin for his ignorance of Black History. But when one makes a faux pas, common courtesy demands a polite apology. |
So, now the offensiveness of a photo hinges on the ignorance or lack thereof of the photographer? Without this forum, how would you know anything about the picture taker at all? What if he was a black history major in college? What if the subject was actually a black person with black paint on their face? None of these questions need to be asked or answered in order for the picture to be a good one or remain a useful commentary about the subject (which is subjective to viewer anyway). What is apologizing going to do that discussion about the topic of racism hasn't done already? |
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07/12/2004 08:46:48 PM · #56 |
I am a gentleman of color, more than 9 different nationalities, to make it simple I am a MUTT, lol. I have a mix of it all, and if you dig too far, you might just find out I am related to you too. I could pass for many different nationalities. I am also from south Louisiana, as south as it can get, where racism is very evident.
However, my first viewing of the photo took me a couple of minutes to think about before I could vote on it, which I gave it a pretty high vote in the end. It took me off guard, to simply say “I WAS NOT READY FOR IT”, but I was faced with it and what ever the content, I still take it as art. Art comes in many different forms, and even if it was intended to resemble blackface, I have to hand it to you Bassie, it was well done and I actually like the picture for many different reasons. We can not grow by being scared of being faced with issues of life and history is an issue to some that has caused many internal scars, but the truth of the matter is it is a part of our history, and it is a major factor in the development of our free country. Yes we have to deal with racism, but it is how you deal with it and your interpretation of it. In the end we can not fear it but continue to learn to overcome it. Thanks for your artistic talents, continue to create your art in what ever form it is intended to be. We can not be afraid to offend someone, it is in the nature of our business to make life an art, and life at times is offensive to someone somewhere, and this photo definitely defined that fact. To put it blankly, I think the biggest problem with the photo is that people are not ready to face the subject, and if we all can see beyond the negative we could possibly see the positive. 10,000 years from now, this photo could be in our history books and would probably not offend anyone. Go out and make more waves, you probably received more publicity than any other photo, also the picture could possibly sell, it kinda reminds me of Mardi Gras!! Laissez les bons temps rouler! Ahheeeeeeeeeee! Personally, it is going in one of my favorites. Great job.
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07/12/2004 08:50:15 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by timganier:
I am a gentleman of color, more than 9 different nationalities, to make it simple I am a MUTT, lol. I have a mix of it all, and if you dig too far, you might just find out I am related to you too. I could pass for many different nationalities. I am also from south Louisiana, as south as it can get, where racism is very evident.
However, my first viewing of the photo took me a couple of minutes to think about before I could vote on it, which I gave it a pretty high vote in the end. It took me off guard, to simply say “I WAS NOT READY FOR IT”, but I was faced with it and what ever the content, I still take it as art. Art comes in many different forms, and even if it was intended to resemble blackface, I have to hand it to you Bassie, it was well done and I actually like the picture for many different reasons. We can not grow by being scared of being faced with issues of life and history is an issue to some that has caused many internal scars, but the truth of the matter is it is a part of our history, and it is a major factor in the development of our free country. Yes we have to deal with racism, but it is how you deal with it and your interpretation of it. In the end we can not fear it but continue to learn to overcome it. Thanks for your artistic talents, continue to create your art in what ever form it is intended to be. We can not be afraid to offend someone, it is in the nature of our business to make life an art, and life at times is offensive to someone somewhere, and this photo definitely defined that fact. To put it blankly, I think the biggest problem with the photo is that people are not ready to face the subject, and if we all can see beyond the negative we could possibly see the positive. 10,000 years from now, this photo could be in our history books and would probably not offend anyone. Go out and make more waves, you probably received more publicity than any other photo, also the picture could possibly sell, it kinda reminds me of Mardi Gras!! Laissez les bons temps rouler! Ahheeeeeeeeeee! Personally, it is going in one of my favorites. Great job. |
well said! and greetings from a fellow Louisianian. :)
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07/12/2004 08:51:46 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
[quote=digistoune] Your comment about treating other humans as humans sounds like the kind of cheap talk used by people who are uncomfortable dealing with strong issues. Guess what? Racism is news. Every day. Ignoring this kind of discussion or dismissing it is not exactly paving the way toward a better world. You are making a photo contest more important than an individual's feelings. |
Cheap talk?!? Hmmm... seems to me that the basis of racism is one human feeling he/she has the right to treat another human inhumanely. If we, as humans, treated each other as HUMANS we wouldn't have a problem. It's not such a difficult concept is it? Still confused?? Well let me put it another way... if our eyes came to rest on another human being and saw just that person - not their skin color - than I guess they wouldn't have a reason to be prejudiced, would they!
I would remind you that this IS a photo contest and we are talking about a photo. Further, I would remind you that you don't me, you don't know whether I'm black, white, yellow, or purple. You don't know how strongly I feel about such issues as people treating other people like shit because of something as STUPID as the color of their skin! So don't presume that you have the right to talk down to me because I have expressed an opinion on this forum. Thank you |
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07/12/2004 08:53:48 PM · #59 |
OK kids...don't make me have to pull this car over!!! LOL 
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07/12/2004 08:54:20 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by bledford:
Originally posted by melismatica:
I think it would have been courteous for him to simply say, "I'm so sorry if I offended some people. I was unaware of the history of blackface and absolutely no offense was intended." It would have been a very simple thing to do. I don't blame Kevin for his ignorance of Black History. But when one makes a faux pas, common courtesy demands a polite apology. |
So, now the offensiveness of a photo hinges on the ignorance or lack thereof of the photographer? Without this forum, how would you know anything about the picture taker at all? What if he was a black history major in college? What if the subject was actually a black person with black paint on their face? None of these questions need to be asked or answered in order for the picture to be a good one or remain a useful commentary about the subject (which is subjective to viewer anyway). What is apologizing going to do that discussion about the topic of racism hasn't done already? |
A Black History major, in presenting a photo like this, would have expected to receive comments regarding the offense of the image. The reality is, it was not a Black History major or a black person. The other fact is Bassie started this thread by commenting that he didn't understand why some people found the image offensive. That is an understandable question. However, when it was explained to him, he then should have realized the faux pas (his intentions or lack thereof don't factor in) and apologized. I'm not saying he has to debase himself or even apologize for his art but is it so wrong to expect a little courtesy?
I'm sure when Bush referred to the Pakistani people as Packies he did not intend to be racist. He said it out of ignorance.That does not diminish the effect of his faux pas and an apology was most definitely in order (I don't recall if Bush apologized).
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07/12/2004 08:58:03 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
OK kids...don't make me have to pull this car over!!! LOL |
Laurie you crack me up!
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07/12/2004 08:59:14 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by debitipton:
Kevin, I gave your photo and 8 because of the photographic quality and effort that you put into doing it. But at the same time I admit that when the picture came up on my screen I took a second look. |
And isn't making someone take a second look one way to decide an image has impact? I believe this was a completely innocent execution of a photographic idea, which bears an unfortunate resemblance to images which are historically offensive.
Note though, there are many artists who use "offensive" elements in their compositions deliberately, precisely to "stir controversy" and to generate the kind of exchange of ideas and experiences we've had here.
This is one of the ways in which art is an important force in advancing our level of civilization, and is one of the reasons not all art has to be "pretty."
And I bet there was controversy a-plenty about Olivier, just as there was when Brando played an Okinawan in Teahouse of the August Moon or a Mexican in {i]Viva Zapata[/i] -- Hollywood has a LONG history of having white actors play ethnic roles (often appearing ridiculous in the attempt!), while denying work to talented actors "born to the part." |
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07/12/2004 09:00:24 PM · #63 |
Discuss the picture at hand, if you wish. Discuss the issues surrounding it, if you wish. Personal attacks (and some of you are coming dangerously close) will get this thread moved at best to rant, or hidden at worst.
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07/12/2004 09:00:43 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Hollywood has a LONG history of having white actors play ethnic roles (often appearing ridiculous in the attempt!), while denying work to talented actors "born to the part." |
...Kevin Costner...Robin Hood...no one has to say anything else. LOL
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07/12/2004 09:01:03 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
I'm sure when Bush referred to the Pakistani people as Packies he did not intend to be racist. |
Gee ... I would say that someone says things like that because they are racist, but didn't intend to let anyone know ... |
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07/12/2004 09:01:27 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by digistoune:
Originally posted by melismatica:
[quote=digistoune] Your comment about treating other humans as humans sounds like the kind of cheap talk used by people who are uncomfortable dealing with strong issues. Guess what? Racism is news. Every day. Ignoring this kind of discussion or dismissing it is not exactly paving the way toward a better world. You are making a photo contest more important than an individual's feelings. |
Cheap talk?!? Hmmm... seems to me that the basis of racism is one human feeling he/she has the right to treat another human inhumanely. If we, as humans, treated each other as HUMANS we wouldn't have a problem. It's not such a difficult concept is it? Still confused?? Well let me put it another way... if our eyes came to rest on another human being and saw just that person - not their skin color - than I guess they wouldn't have a reason to be prejudiced, would they!
I would remind you that this IS a photo contest and we are talking about a photo. Further, I would remind you that you don't me, you don't know whether I'm black, white, yellow, or purple. You don't know how strongly I feel about such issues as people treating other people like shit because of something as STUPID as the color of their skin! So don't presume that you have the right to talk down to me because I have expressed an opinion on this forum. Thank you |
The essential fact that you are refusing to aknowledge is that we live in the real world and unfortunately, people are treated like shit because of the color of their skin. Refusing to discuss it and pretending that we don't notice the color of another person's skin is a simplistic way to deal with the issue of racism. Even if you are black, refusing to aknowledge the feelings of even one other black person who was offended by that photo because of some idealistic notion of color blindness does not move things in a very positive direction. I'm not suggesting ass-kissing here, just some plain, old-fashioned good manners.
"Did I hurt your feelings? I'm sorry, that was not my intention. Please forgive me." Was that so hard?
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07/12/2004 09:03:27 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by melismatica:
I'm sure when Bush referred to the Pakistani people as Packies he did not intend to be racist. |
Gee ... I would say that someone says things like that because they are racist, but didn't intend to let anyone know ... |
Well...that is a whole other thread and I just don't have the energy. :-D For the sake of argument, I decided to give Bush the benefit of the doubt.
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07/12/2004 09:05:16 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Hollywood has a LONG history of having white actors play ethnic roles (often appearing ridiculous in the attempt!), while denying work to talented actors "born to the part." |
...Kevin Costner...Robin Hood...no one has to say anything else. LOL |
Um...I hope that was a joke. I think GeneralE was referring to whites playing Indians, etc.
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07/12/2004 09:06:14 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
Even if you are black, refusing to aknowledge the feelings of even one other black person who was offended by that photo because of some idealistic notion of color blindness does not move things in a very positive direction. |
Acknowledging someone's feelings, exactly what Bassie did by starting this thread, is a very different thing from apologizing for invoking those feelings, which is what you seem to be asking him to do. He has been polite. If you see it as anything else, it is your right to do so...but expect to be called on it. |
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07/12/2004 09:06:38 PM · #70 |
Yes, it was a joke...I apologize if I offended any citizens of the UK or of the US in my obviously poor attempt at lightening the mood around here...
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07/12/2004 09:07:15 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Hollywood has a LONG history of having white actors play ethnic roles (often appearing ridiculous in the attempt!), while denying work to talented actors "born to the part." |
...Kevin Costner...Robin Hood...no one has to say anything else. LOL |
Um...I hope that was a joke. I think GeneralE was referring to whites playing Indians, etc. |
I was, and I think it was, too ... I think we're trying to interject a lighter tone to a serious topic. |
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07/12/2004 09:11:00 PM · #72 |
I see everyone complaining about this photo which is ridiculous to single this one out. I'd just like to know if anyone views the photo at the bottom of Rooster's post of the African American kid drinking from a fountain with a "Whites Only" sign above it. That was a great photo in & of itself which was meant {in my interpretation} to remind us of the way things used to be.
The reason for defense of Bassie's "Purple" challenge entry is because it is obviously not intentional. So how come one should be offended by an unintentional allusion & not be so by an intentional one? |
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07/12/2004 09:11:39 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
...Kevin Costner...Robin Hood...no one has to say anything else. LOL |
hilarious! i liked the movie but had wished anyone but him had played the role--someone who would have at least tried to adapt to the role and not sound like he was from 20th century middle america. :) |
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07/12/2004 09:13:07 PM · #74 |
It emmediately reminded me of the blackface history but without a context or obvious intent I didn't take it that way. From an artistic point of view and to be more appropriate I think I would have preferred not to see the subtle highlights on the nose and eyes. I would rather the face be completely black. As it is, while not offensive, in and of itself, it still distracted from it. So while I can see the similarities to the blackface I just don't see any intent or context to back up that notion. The context of this site is photography and often in the form of art and design, so within that context, I would not assume that this is meant as anything but artistic. The inclusion of the popsicle also supports this. I think regarding the issue of offensive material that context is everything. Without a proper context just about everything can be considered offensive.
T
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07/12/2004 09:13:42 PM · #75 |
I have followed the thread and my comment was let the past be the past. Get on with being human beings and make this world a better place. I/we can't undo what has been done. And Yes I am from Australia and blacks in Australia have been percicuted just as bad as the blacks in America but that doesn't mean that we should let what has happened in the past interfere with what we do now.
Originally posted by melismatica:
Originally posted by pearcer:
Does this mean no more BLACK an WHITE photos because someone might just happen to see that there are connotations of racism in them?
I showed the photo to a "Black" friend of mine and he loved it. people should Stop trying to be goody 2 shoes and get on with life instead of trying to push a barrow about Black and White.
Personally I'm dissapointed, I thought that this site was about photography. |
That's a ridiculous notion, and once again, dismissing that this image was in fact extremely reminiscent of blackface. Have you not followed the thread? Why is everyone so quick to jump to the defense of a stupid photograph and dismiss the genuine, legitimage hurt feelings the image caused. What if this were a fabulous photo that contained a Swastika? After all, the Holocaust was 60 years ago. Shouldn't we just move on? That is what this thread is sounding like to my ears. The kind thing to do would have been for Kevin to aknowledge the feelings of the people who were offended, make a gracious apology to the effect that it was a misunderstanding, and then move on. Instead, the majority seems to be placing greater importance on soothing Kevin's ego and acusing those who were offended (or at least aknowledging the potential for offense) of overeacting and getting their panties in a wad. Anyone who has not been following this thread in its entirety should really read further back before responding. Or look up the history of blackface in America.
To negate the power this image has to emotionally impact a group of people is to negate the power of photography.
BTW, Pearcer, I noticed that you live in Australia. The black people in Australia have a different history of racism than blacks in the US so your friend would not have understood the cultural reference of blackface. |
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