Fine Arts II - DPChallenge Forums

Canon RF 24-105mm F/4L IS USM

03/04/2011 03:57:03 PM · #76

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by hajeka:
H'm, I like you all, but I hate juries. What's wrong with the voters? (no reply needed :) )

The challenge will be voted on as usual. The jury results are posted separately in a thread.

It's by way of an exercise exploring the different results obtained from an unfocused group aesthetic vs a focused one: the standard DPC voting results tend to reward unobjectionable images at the expense of often more powerful images that polarize people. The jury, on the other hand, is inclined to reward risk-taking. This is an oversimplification, and it's just my own perception (I'm not speaking for the other jurors here), but I think it's a valid one.

R.

hajeka

Canon EOS R5

03/04/2011 04:03:42 PM · #77

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I know, but, playing the advocate of the devil (hope that's good English), I'm not sure what it adds to the result. Btw. I like the challenge suggestion, wasn't happy with my first attempt.

hajeka

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-105mm F/4L IS USM

03/04/2011 04:12:42 PM · #78

bear_music: Our posts crossed. I can live with your explanation, but still, even with a jury, the whole will be very subjective, unless someone can give an objective way to define "Fine Arts"

DJWoodward

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

03/04/2011 04:13:31 PM · #79

Originally posted by hajeka:

H'm, I like you all, but I hate juries. What's wrong with the voters? (no reply needed :) )

My take is that there's nothing wrong with the voters this just gives a different but equally valid perspective on the images. I think it's pretty cool to mix it up from time to time and see that fresh perspective.

Sony FE 24-105mm F4 G OSS

03/04/2011 04:49:44 PM · #80

Originally posted by hajeka:

@ bear_music: Our posts crossed. I can live with your explanation, but still, even with a jury, the whole will be very subjective, unless someone can give an objective way to define "Fine Arts"

who said that the goal was to make it less subjective? a jury actually makes it more subjective.

MargaretNet

Apple iPhone 15 Pro

03/04/2011 05:11:03 PM · #81

Originally posted by hajeka:

@ bear_music: Our posts crossed. I can live with your explanation, but still, even with a jury, the whole will be very subjective, unless someone can give an objective way to define "Fine Arts"

Art (or f'art which I assume stands for foto-art) is subjective by definition :)
PS Wrong again - f-art is fine art. Ha!

Message edited by author 2011-03-04 17:15:08.

bspurgeon

Fujifilm x100

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

03/04/2011 05:11:12 PM · #82

Fine Art I Juried Results

Fostered discussion...one benefit from the last challenge.

Message edited by author 2011-03-07 00:50:44.

hajeka

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-105mm F/4L IS USM

03/04/2011 05:12:11 PM · #83

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by hajeka:
@ bear_music: Our posts crossed. I can live with your explanation, but still, even with a jury, the whole will be very subjective, unless someone can give an objective way to define "Fine Arts"

who said that the goal was to make it less subjective? a jury actually makes it more subjective.

That's why I don't like a jury, but I have to admit I really don't know how to get an objective view of (any) subject, so for the moment I prefer just mass voting, average perhaps, but less subjective.

smardaz

03/04/2011 05:13:49 PM · #84

I got your "fine art" right here

I always thought that guy was totally fine, mmmm mmmm, he's a brick house. yeah baby.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

03/04/2011 05:59:07 PM · #85

Originally posted by hajeka:

@ bear_music: Our posts crossed. I can live with your explanation, but still, even with a jury, the whole will be very subjective, unless someone can give an objective way to define "Fine Arts"

I don't think the goal is to make any sort of definition available, but merely to have a second, focused, and yes, adjudicated look at the entries in a challenge not "typical" for DPC. The whole process is easily ignored, if that's not your thing, because standard voting and entering is the same. It's more like a side challenge, where we'll talk about what we're doing in a forum thread.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/04/2011 06:16:09 PM · #86

Originally posted by hajeka:

So you admit that neither you, nor anyone else in some 5000 years of recorded history, has been able to devise a method to evaluate art "objectively" -- what the voting represents is a numerical average of the subjective views of a fairly large number of voters.

With a smaller pool of people evaluating the pictures, especially if any of their esthetic values overlap in any significant way, you are more likely skew the result towards one of the extremes, rather than achieve the normal bell-curve distribution.

In addition (perhaps most importantly), the jury members get to discuss the entries amongst themselves -- their votes are not "locked-in" as soon as they're cast. Someone might initially rate a photo a 3, until one of the others points out some feature or attribute which changes the first person's opinion; an option not available through the normal voting system, and only partially mitigated by the various threads which point out pictures of merit which did not score particularly well.

I've actually proposed a method by which you could have self-selected jury evaluate all of your challenge entries, but it hasn't caught on with the power-that-is and does the coding ... :-(

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

03/04/2011 08:43:14 PM · #87

Originally posted by hajeka:

Mass averages don't excite me for some reason.

I will gladly explain my decisions, not in order to change your mind, but to provide some reason -- spiritual, emotional and intellectual -- to this process. Mass averages have no such insights to offer.

pointandshoot

Canon EOS-10D

03/04/2011 09:22:46 PM · #88

After the challenge voting is over, I'd love to read a transcript of the PM discussions the jury made during their deliberations. It would be an interesting and enlightening read.

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM

03/04/2011 09:28:01 PM · #89

Originally posted by pointandshoot:

After the challenge voting is over, I'd love to read a transcript of the PM discussions the jury made during their deliberations. It would be an interesting and enlightening read.

Interesting, definitely. Enlightening? I'm not so sure :-) In any case, it's unlikely to happen; last time there was unanimous agreement that no judge ought to be seen as championing one image over the other. We did, however, post all sorts of judges' comments, anonymously, alongside the relevant images, after the awards were decided.

R.

Cory

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

03/04/2011 09:30:18 PM · #90

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by pointandshoot:
After the challenge voting is over, I'd love to read a transcript of the PM discussions the jury made during their deliberations. It would be an interesting and enlightening read.

Interesting, definitely. Enlightening? I'm not so sure :-) In any case, it's unlikely to happen; last time there was unanimous agreement that no judge ought to be seen as championing one image over the other. We did, however, post all sorts of judges' comments, anonymously, alongside the relevant images, after the awards were decided.

R.

Awwwww

Message edited by author 2011-03-04 21:31:02.

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

03/04/2011 11:08:22 PM · #91

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Good lucking getting that gag on Louis... I wrote comments on the photos I loved the most... directly on the photos, not in the results thread.

Message edited by author 2011-03-04 23:09:52.

Louis

Nikon D800

03/04/2011 11:13:24 PM · #92

:-P

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

03/04/2011 11:27:46 PM · #93

Originally posted by Louis:

:-P

see what I mean?

pointandshoot

Canon EOS-10D

03/04/2011 11:35:43 PM · #94

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I think the discussion thread would offer a greater insight into how the jury, as a whole, defines "fine art". The anonymous comments at the end are great for those who get them, but those who don't get them might like to know why. And this is a learning site...

bspurgeon

Fujifilm x100

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

03/04/2011 11:53:42 PM · #95

Originally posted by pointandshoot:

Something to consider, but it seems like a huge can of worms.

ubique

Olympus PEN-F

Olympus 17mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko

03/04/2011 11:53:51 PM · #96

Originally posted by pointandshoot:

It would inevitably include discussion of the artistic merits (if any) of photographs that finish at the top of the popular vote. I'd love to see that.

MargaretNet

Apple iPhone 15 Pro

Sony FE 24-105mm F4 G OSS

03/05/2011 12:05:10 AM · #97

I somehow do not want to know what jury thinks/thought. Remember it is not about winning but your personal development as a photographer.

pointandshoot

Canon EOS-10D

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

03/05/2011 12:06:17 AM · #98

Originally posted by bspurgeon:

Originally posted by pointandshoot:

I think the discussion thread would offer a greater insight into how the jury, as a whole, defines "fine art". The anonymous comments at the end are great for those who get them, but those who don't get them might like to know why. And this is a learning site...

Something to consider, but it seems like a huge can of worms.

right now, it's a moot can of worms :)

03/05/2011 12:23:52 AM · #99

Originally posted by marnet:

I somehow do not want to know what jury thinks/thought. Remember it is not about winning but your personal development as a photographer.

How can knowing what a jury of 9 respected photographers thought of your image hinder your development as a photographer? THAT part's not about "winning", it's about how we reacted, as indviduals, to the image.

R.