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07/09/2004 01:09:45 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by moodville:
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Thanks Moodville :)
With only 5 comments being mostly positive, I'm still trying to figure out why this didn't score better...although it is my 3rd best score.
I tried to give it an old feel. Lighthouses ARE old & played an important roll back in their day. I reworked the B&W conversion several times before I was happy with the detail & contrast. I've been trying to take images that aren't "just a lighthouse" lately. I think it helps to give them more meaning & convey their stories. I thought I had all my "technical" bases covered (no blown out white, clarity etc)so I must have failed to get my "vision" across to the masses in this I guess.
When I look at it, I can just see an old light keeper sittin on the bench, thinking back to the hard work & storms. The countless trips up all those stairs to keep the light burning so ships could make a safe passage. (A work ethic rarely found now) But that's just me...lol
I suppose if you don't know the stories...like the one about the ship that ran into rocks & sank, in dense fog, just FEET away from the beach at the Portland Head lighthouse...then my vision gets lost in the translation.
I'd love to have some more feedback on it if anyone who scored it 5 & under cares to share their thoughts.
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07/09/2004 01:32:00 PM · #27 |
By the end of this thread I reckon all of the pics in the challenge will have been posted, except the blue ribbon winner!
But, for what it's worth - here's my underrated choice, mainly because of the capture. It's obviously not a technical marvel but he was at the right place at the right time and it's got some nice context:
... and this for it's striking appearance and moody, low-key lighting:
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07/09/2004 01:42:50 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by LtHousLady:
Originally posted by moodville:
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Thanks Moodville :)
With only 5 comments being mostly positive, I'm still trying to figure out why this didn't score better...although it is my 3rd best score.
I'd love to have some more feedback on it if anyone who scored it 5 & under cares to share their thoughts. |
Well I would have to say this one was the most robbed in my opinion. This is one of the ones I gave a 10 to. I can't believe it didn't do better, I love it. :)
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07/09/2004 01:55:15 PM · #29 |
I don't think this image was robbed. The Challenge was filled with awesome images, and this image should be lucky to be placed among the top50!
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07/09/2004 02:07:45 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by terje:
I don't think this image was robbed. The Challenge was filled with awesome images, and this image should be lucky to be placed among the top50! |
I'm with you there! I certainly don't feel robbed. I really appreciate being singled out in a "they were robbed" thread, and I'm very happy with the score I recieved, but can't really look at any of the pictures that finished above me and say that they weren't at least as good as mine, and there were quite a few that finished below me that I thought were way better (many of which have already been mentioned). But thanks for the mention. :) |
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07/09/2004 02:46:23 PM · #31 |
I liked this one and gave it a 6 but there were so many good photos in this challenge and I did not think this was among the best. A 6 is a high score from me since I rarely give 9's or 10's. I may change that at some point but I tend to look at the 1-10 range as a universal range, rather than a DPC range. So if I give a 6 that is in comparison to all the great photographs I've seen, classics or otherwise. This is why I rarely give 9's or 10's. Some might consider that unfair but I have a hard time adjusting my thinking enough to rate something a 10. Like I said, I may relax my standards in the future. This is why my average voting score is lower than 5. I think my method is evened out by the far more generous methods of other voters. Sorry about all the thumbnails. When I embarked upon this post, I didn't realize how many 7's I had actually given. That's quite a bit for me. I'm usually the person that people are talking about when they say, "Who would give this less than a five?" And to the person who sent me the angry PMs accusing me of being biased against photos of children, notice that there are two (sorry, make that three) photos that feature children among my top picks for this challenge.
Heida's was my top score, with an 8, and the third place photo was among my top with a 7. Here are my other top ranking picks that I rated 7. The first one is my only other 8.
                      
Message edited by EddyG - Added spaces between thumbnails to reduce width. |
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07/09/2004 06:15:25 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by turdave:
Originally posted by LtHousLady:
Originally posted by moodville:
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Thanks Moodville :)
With only 5 comments being mostly positive, I'm still trying to figure out why this didn't score better...although it is my 3rd best score.
I'd love to have some more feedback on it if anyone who scored it 5 & under cares to share their thoughts. |
Well I would have to say this one was the most robbed in my opinion. This is one of the ones I gave a 10 to. I can't believe it didn't do better, I love it. :) |
Thank you kindly Turdave!
As Malismatic pointed out, it may not have been a Heida shot (which was the only image I gave a 10)...but she did give it a 6. That's pretty good on her scale! lol
You both at least saw something in it, even though to different degrees. That is why I wanted to see what the 5 & under crowd had to say...to pinpoint the reason.
Not liking the b&W conversion? Just don't care for lighthouses? Composition? Is there anything I could have changed to make it appeal more widely & convey my message better?
Since lighthouse photography is my business, I could take georgeous sunrise shots like this... ...till the sun doesn't shine any more... But I wanted to convey more than a pretty picture. Just trying to figure out how to reach the people I obviously didn't reach with this. Maybe it can't be done. Maybe they just need to love lighthouses & their history as much as I do to see it...
Maybe I just answered my own question ;)
Message edited by author 2004-07-09 18:18:16.
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07/09/2004 07:09:36 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by LtHousLady:
I'd love to have some more feedback on it if anyone who scored it 5 & under cares to share their thoughts.
Since lighthouse photography is my business, I could take georgeous sunrise shots like this. Just trying to figure out how to reach the people I obviously didn't reach with this. Maybe it can't be done. Maybe they just need to love lighthouses & their history as much as I do to see it...
Maybe I just answered my own question ;) |
Just left you some comments on the image - I sincerely hope they provide some insight into "What was he thinking!"
-Tom-
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07/09/2004 07:15:47 PM · #34 |
I thought this photo would've placed in the top 5 for sure.
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07/09/2004 08:16:46 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by photom:
Originally posted by LtHousLady:
I'd love to have some more feedback on it if anyone who scored it 5 & under cares to share their thoughts.
Since lighthouse photography is my business, I could take georgeous sunrise shots like this. Just trying to figure out how to reach the people I obviously didn't reach with this. Maybe it can't be done. Maybe they just need to love lighthouses & their history as much as I do to see it...
Maybe I just answered my own question ;) |
Just left you some comments on the image - I sincerely hope they provide some insight into "What was he thinking!"
-Tom- |
Thank you for taking the time to go into such detail Tom. I've read through your comment & will think more on it after dinner & movie time with the kids :)
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07/09/2004 09:55:41 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
I liked this one and gave it a 6 but there were so many good photos in this challenge and I did not think this was among the
best. A 6 is a high score from me since I rarely give 9's or 10's. I may change that at some point but I tend to look at
the 1-10 range as a universal range, rather than a DPC range. So if I give a 6 that is in comparison to all the great
photographs I've seen, classics or otherwise. This is why I rarely give 9's or 10's. Some might consider that unfair
but I have a hard time adjusting my thinking enough to rate something a 10. Like I said, I may relax my
standards in the future. This is why my average voting score is lower than 5. I think my method is evened out by
the far more generous methods of other voters. Sorry about all the thumbnails. When I embarked upon this post, I didn't
realize how many 7's I had actually given. That's quite a bit for me. I'm usually the person that people are talking
about when they say, "Who would give this less than a five?" |
You are correct in saying that your voting system, with the top two levels clipped off, is balanced out by others who
vote relatively high when compared to the group as a whole. But it is self-serving on the individual level. None of
us will have the opportunity to get a 9 or a 10 from you if we have a deserving entry but we don't know which entry
is yours so we cannot treat you the same and limit your top possible score to an 8. I, for one, don't think the
challenges are intented to measure an entry against all the classic images you have ever seen, but rather against
the other people who enter here. In my voting system I bring it down even further to competition among those who
have entered each challenge, and I make an effort to find my choice as best in each and give at least one score
of 10 in each. Don't forget that many of the entrants are beginners just trying to get their footing in the world
of digital photography, using the competition as a means to motivate themselves as they learn, and to measure
their progress over time. |
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07/09/2004 10:08:05 PM · #37 |
A few, but there were many more, more of those you have already entered too
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07/10/2004 12:04:38 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by Patents4u:
...should've placed much higher....
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I'm honored to have had my photo mentioned in one of your three. :) Thank you!
Sonya |
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07/10/2004 01:18:22 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
You are correct in saying that your voting system, with the top two levels clipped off, is balanced out by others who
vote relatively high when compared to the group as a whole. But it is self-serving on the individual level. None of
us will have the opportunity to get a 9 or a 10 from you if we have a deserving entry but we don't know which entry
is yours so we cannot treat you the same and limit your top possible score to an 8. I, for one, don't think the
challenges are intented to measure an entry against all the classic images you have ever seen, but rather against
the other people who enter here. |
I have actually given a few 9's although I don't think I've given any 10's. I don't see how it is self-serving to vote that way. The occasional 9 and 10's I receive don't seem to be bringing my averages up by much. The photos that I gave 7's to for the most part did quite well and Heida won the Blue. The other photo I gave an 8 to placed quite low. I doubt my upping the score to a 9 or 10 would have benefited that photographer much other than the gratification of seeing that someone gave it a 9 or 10.
At any rate, I said I may change my voting process in the future. Since the 1-10 scale is a classic type of rating system, it is hard to look at it from a strictly DPC level. I didn't say I would never give a 9 or 10. It is not a strict limit I have imposed on myself. I just said, I rarely give them out. What if a true 10 comes along (true by the standards I can't help using)? It could happen. I think I vote very fairly, since I try to be consistant. This means that there will be challenges where I give very few scores higher than 6. In a recent Open challenge, I didn't give any photos higher than a 6. In the June Challenge, people had a month to prepare, and I think my voting reflects the higher than usual quality (plus there were no challenge specifics to interfere with pure enjoyment of an image). I gave 2 8's and twenty-three 7's. That is about 18 to 10 times more 7's than I usually give. I gave many, many more 6's. Let me just explain that I vote according to whether Iike an image, not just whether it is sharp with decent color saturation. Composition and content are very important to me, and quite frankly, while I see many images that are well-focused and sharp, the majority of images just aren't that compelling to me, asthetically. Since I view photography as an art, not a science, I can't help voting the way I vote. I am obviously in the minority on DPC so I as I said, it balances out in the end. My work tends to be more about composition than flawless pixels (partly because I've been using a camera with under 2 mp) so I tend to receive quite a few 4's, 3's, and 2's for images that other people have given 8s, 9's, and 10's. This is why I laugh when I'm accused of tilting the balance in my favor. After 15 challenges I have only placed in the top 10 percent once and in the top 50 percent twice (and that was on the low end of the range). By DPC standards, as a photographer, I am below average. Few people seem to be lowering their standards when voting on my images, so why should I lower mine? This is not grumpiness or sour grapes talking. I've come to accept that my photos will never be a hit on DPC. I'm just pointing out that I'm obviously not the only person that has strict standards. I think my skills are at least average but rarely do my scores reflect that. My average vote received to date is 4.9194.
Here is the breakdown of votes for the only other image I gave an 8 to.
1 1
2 4
3 19
4 44
5 57
6 45
7 17
8 12
9 3
10 7
Obviously, the majority of voters did not agree with my asthetic on this image. Quite a few thought it was below average. This is almost universally the case with most challenges. I frequently find myself groaning to find pictures that I thought were the best of the bunch ranking in the lower 50th percent. Why? Because the majority of voters are handing out 8s, 9s, and 10s to photos I think of as 5s, 4s, and often 3s. I could complain about this but that only causes dissent and accusations of elitism, so I keep my mouth shut now. I only offered the information I did by way of congratulating the high number of truly good images for this challenge.
I'm sorry you don't agree with my method but I'm not going to lower my standards to suit a rather subject notion of what is fair. Let me just point out, that as a kid, I hated getting handicap points when playing games with older kids or adults. I think voting from the mindset that we are all beginners (which simply isn't true) would be unfair and condescending.
In the end, the 1-10 range is very relative. To pose an analogy; ERs use the 1-10 (or 1-5) scale to get an idea of the pain a person is experiencing, 1 being none the highest number being the worst you've ever felt. People have different thresholds for pain tolerance. My son and I have rather high thresholds, my daughter has a pretty low threshold. My 3 level of pain could very easily be her 6.
By the way, I feel my June Challenge entry is pretty much where it belongs. I was not totally satisfied with that photo and I tried to change it last minute but the clock on my computer was set a few minutes slower than DPC (I fixed that ;-D).
Message edited by author 2004-07-10 01:22:29. |
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07/10/2004 01:31:59 AM · #40 |
A final word in defense of my voting process and then I'm signing off. Here are my comments stats. Keep in mind I have only been actively participating in the voting and challenges since late April of this year.
Made: 1015
* Helpful: 642
More than half of the comments I've made were marked helpful. I'm not a math person so I don't know the exact percentage but I don't think that is a bad number when one takes in to consideration the number of people who don't check the box or only check for positive comments are comments they find truly helpful (i.e., they plan to use the advice, something was intended that is pointed out as a flaw, etc).
Since I try to very hard to comment on the images I score low I think I make up for my strict standards.
I just noticed, Coolhar, that your average vote cast isn't that much higher than mine. Yours is 4.5559 to my 4.3714. I vote on every single entry whenever possible (I did for the June challenge).
Message edited by author 2004-07-10 01:35:20. |
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07/10/2004 02:16:34 AM · #41 |
I have no disagreement with your having strict standards, not at all. Most would say mine are strict also, as evidenced
by my Avg Vote Cast. I have remarked similiarly in the past when people have said that they never give votes of 1 or 2,
or that they just pass on the images they think should get a 1 or 2. I'm just saying that the scale here at dpc is 1 thru
10 and not to use all the levels skews the results. There is, in every challenge, a best and worst entry. Determine
which is which by your own standards but give them there due by the same scale that everyone uses to score your entries.
It would make the results a little more valid for all of us if you did.
I'd like to compliment you for making so many comments. I am no where close to you in number but, like you, take pride
in having a healthy percentage marked as helpful. |
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07/10/2004 02:18:00 AM · #42 |
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07/10/2004 07:42:41 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
There is, in every challenge, a best and worst entry. Determine which is which by your own standards but give them there due by the same scale that everyone uses to score your entries.
It would make the results a little more valid for all of us if you did.
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To me, the best isn't always a 10 and the worst is not always a 1. I believe in the free study my worst was a 3. For me, as long as the image has some photographic merit it deserves better than a 1. My votes have gone up over the last while as I learn more about what to look for. My opinion, you don't have to agree.
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07/10/2004 09:11:14 AM · #44 |
Wow, I made the robbed list :)
Thanks!
Message edited by author 2004-07-10 09:11:35. |
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07/10/2004 09:50:57 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by willem:
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Wow! I have never been in the robbed category either. Thanks Willem! I posted another one of the little fellow in my porfolio, if you want to look. |
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07/10/2004 11:23:59 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by C-Fox:
Originally posted by willem:
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Wow! I have never been in the robbed category either. Thanks Willem! I posted another one of the little fellow in my porfolio, if you want to look. |
I will!
I left you a comment on the pic |
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07/10/2004 11:47:21 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
To me, the best isn't always a 10 and the worst is not always a 1. I believe in the free study my worst was a 3. For me, as long as the image has some photographic merit it deserves better than a 1. My votes have gone up over the last while as I learn more about what to look for. My opinion, you don't have to agree. |
I don't think of it as a hard & fast rule that you must find one at each end of the scale in each challenge.
My point is to use the whole scale and not arbitrarily cut off a couple of points at one end or the other. |
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07/10/2004 12:36:37 PM · #48 |
Other than the winners circle, this is the first time I've looked at the June Free Study submissions. I'm so glad I didn't enter. When 37th place is a most amazing photograph of nature with perfect timing, detail, etc. I wouldn't have even made the top 100. Also, I really hesitate entering member's challenges period because there is so much PS manipulation allowed but that is another thread.
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07/10/2004 01:39:45 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
To me, the best isn't always a 10 and the worst is not always a 1. I believe in the free study my worst was a 3. For me, as long as the image has some photographic merit it deserves better than a 1. My votes have gone up over the last while as I learn more about what to look for. My opinion, you don't have to agree. |
I don't think of it as a hard & fast rule that you must find one at each end of the scale in each challenge.
My point is to use the whole scale and not arbitrarily cut off a couple of points at one end or the other. |
As I've said twice in this thread already, I have not set a limit on how high I will vote. I said I rarely give 9's or 10s. Rarely does not mean never and there is nothing arbitrary about it. I agree with cpanaioti that the best in a challenge is not necessarily a 10. Some times my top picks in a challenge only receive a 7. Sometimes my highest vote is a 6. It isn't arbitrary at all. It depends on what is being offered for me to look at and how much I enjoy it.
When you look at the voting averages of the multi-ribbon winners you notice that their averages aren't in the 8, 9, or 10 range so obviously there are a lot of people who vote the way I do. JJBeguin has 7 blue ribbons, 6 reds, and 7 yellows, and his average vote received is
5.9268.
Another thing to consider about my voting method is that I don't automatically give a 1 or 2 if I think a photo fails to meet the challenge. Some of the same people who generously give out 10's give out 1's for failing to meet the challenge.
In sports like skating and gymnastics, the judges don't automatically give out 10's to a great performance, even in the Olympics where presumably they are judging the best of the best. |
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07/10/2004 02:43:12 PM · #50 |
Since the discussion started here, I just wanted to post a thank you to the additional comments I recieved. I appreciate each of you for taking the time to detail your thoughts. There were several mentions of the "bland sky"...and well...it was...lol Here is the orig for you to see.
Storms were just moving out & there was an all around thin white layer of covering clouds. It would have taken a lot more dodging & burning to make it more dramatic...which I did try, but thought it then looked over done & fake...probably a combination of there being little variation in the sky to play off & my level of PS dodge/burn abilities.
Some of the comments are a matter of personal preference (ex: the border works well....The border doesn't work here ;) For those I'll just need to go with what I like.
Some gave me much food for thought. I'll need to do a bit more investigating of B&W. Maybe I'll even try it with B&W film on the med format ;) Some experienced the tone I was shooting for when viewing it & some felt the image seemed split, so there may be a way to improve that. I'll most likely go back & try different angles to see what they look like.
This should keep my busy for a while :o)
Again, many thanks! This was some of the best constructive critisism I've ever gotten!
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