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12/16/2010 03:42:25 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Their brilliance, here of course, is that they understand what works here and supply that for the masses, but the work they usually have here is almost absolutely devoid of anything meaningful. Unfortunately, the more it works here, the more people try to supply that kind of photography themselves, and the cycle goes on and on and on.
So for me, when I vote and judge, I vote and judge SOLELY on how the photograph makes me FEEL. |
First, I'll say that I understand and agree. But I also disagree. Does a photograph always have to have a deeper meaning? Sometimes an interesting or attractive image is all it is and all that it needs to be. |
Another follow-up: Is a picture with perfect technicals always devoid of deeper meaning? K10 is apt to say some provocative stuff, but to declare that Manny and De Sousa are "almost absolutely devoid of anything meaningful" comes across as a bit arrogant. It stokes the "poke you in the eye" stereotype of the "artyst" (so fancy it's with a 'y')... |
Nowhere did I say they were mutually exclusive. I noted there were exceptions.
ETA: Also, the entire thing is just my own personal take on things. I am neither wishing anyone follow it, nor do I care what others personally vote like or judge images on, so arrogance is a non-factor.
Message edited by author 2010-12-16 15:58:21. |
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12/16/2010 03:42:37 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by LydiaToo:
To me... this is contest on our photography.... Not a creative writing contest (titles) or a creativity contest (subject matter).
So, to me, it's either a "yes" or a "no" for does it meet the challenge topic. I don't scale that. (And one really has to work hard for a "no" vote from me... but if you get one, you get a really low score from me, no matter the technicals or the emotion evoked.)
Then, it's all about the photography. Is it a good photograph? Remember, it's a photography contest.
Now, "good photograph" means different things to everyone, of course. Therein, lies the challenge if one is set on the elusive virtual ribbon. Can you/I take a photograph that will please most of those different people's requirements?
It's a photography contest. |
I mostly agree, but I do think there is an emphasis here on both subject matter and timeliness... It's not just a photography contest, unless you're talking about Freestudies, then yes, it's all about the image.. |
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12/16/2010 03:47:26 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by LydiaToo:
To me...
It's a photography contest. |
I mostly agree, but I do think there is an emphasis here on both subject matter and timeliness... It's not just a photography contest, unless you're talking about Freestudies, then yes, it's all about the image.. |
I agree that it's about both. But, it either IS on topic or it ISN'T. We should not judge how much on topic something is when no image says the same thing any two people.
Then, it's all about how good the photograph is. |
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12/16/2010 03:52:23 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
...I figure if I failed to make the connection obvious enough to be perceived, then I deserved to get a lesser score than I would have deserved if the connection was strong.. |
Not all images are obvious in your sense. Some are subtle. Yet others may relate a sense meant for the few as opposed to the many. Why use an exclamation mark, when a question mark would be more useful?
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12/16/2010 03:58:31 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
...I figure if I failed to make the connection obvious enough to be perceived, then I deserved to get a lesser score than I would have deserved if the connection was strong.. |
Not all images are obvious in your sense. Some are subtle. Yet others may relate a sense meant for the few as opposed to the many. Why use an exclamation mark, when a question mark would be more useful? |
Largely we are trying to capture the interest and corresponding high vote of viewers.. While some of the more subtle images are really wonderful treats, they are rarely well received, and especially if the connection is so obscure as to require research to understand it..
While I'd never say you shouldn't enter something that is wonderfully obscure (I enjoy those images quite a bit, and often score them high, as the connection becomes obvious when I actually do the research), I would say that when voting, the responsibility is upon the submitter to make the connection to the topic clear, not the voter, so if you completely fail to see a connection, why would you vote it high?
Now, be very clear on this point, a question mark doesn't work for most people, but despite that, it is a very wonderful treat for those whom it does work..
In effect, if it is meant for "the few" as you put it, then you should well expect a few very high votes from your target audience, while suffering many more low scores from the masses. It is not up to me, as the voter, to work myself into the "few" category, my only responsibility is an honest and fair appraisal and vote.
Message edited by author 2010-12-16 16:00:30. |
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12/16/2010 04:12:00 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Now, be very clear on this point, a question mark doesn't work for most people, but despite that, it is a very wonderful treat for those whom it does work.. |
Worked for me, though not so much with the voters ... ;-)  |
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12/16/2010 04:18:21 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
...I figure if I failed to make the connection obvious enough to be perceived, then I deserved to get a lesser score than I would have deserved if the connection was strong.. |
Not all images are obvious in your sense. Some are subtle. Yet others may relate a sense meant for the few as opposed to the many. Why use an exclamation mark, when a question mark would be more useful? |
Largely we are trying to capture the interest and corresponding high vote of viewers.. While some of the more subtle images are really wonderful treats, they are rarely well received, and especially if the connection is so obscure as to require research to understand it..
While I'd never say you shouldn't enter something that is wonderfully obscure (I enjoy those images quite a bit, and often score them high, as the connection becomes obvious when I actually do the research), I would say that when voting, the responsibility is upon the submitter to make the connection to the topic clear, not the voter, so if you completely fail to see a connection, why would you vote it high?
Now, be very clear on this point, a question mark doesn't work for most people, but despite that, it is a very wonderful treat for those whom it does work..
In effect, if it is meant for "the few" as you put it, then you should well expect a few very high votes from your target audience, while suffering many more low scores from the masses. It is not up to me, as the voter, to work myself into the "few" category, my only responsibility is an honest and fair appraisal and vote. |
It is precisely an honest and fair appraisal that motivates my reserve to diminish an entry for a fault that may well be mine. I have no qualms with the ratings I receive for my own submissions to a challenge. I know all to well what I'm up against and expect no more, but when it comes to my own actions with regards to voting, I prefer not to use a sledge hammer to kill a fly.
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12/16/2010 04:35:19 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
It is precisely an honest and fair appraisal that motivates my reserve to diminish an entry for a fault that may well be mine. I have no qualms with the ratings I receive for my own submissions to a challenge. I know all to well what I'm up against and expect no more, but when it comes to my own actions with regards to voting, I prefer not to use a sledge hammer to kill a fly. |
Ahh, but I disagree!!
I feel that if you fail to see the connection, the only honest thing to do is to mark down the entry, otherwise you are being somewhat dishonest, as you're voting upon a belief (that there is a valid connection)..
No offense intended, but I just feel that you are being a bit dishonest with yourself at this level, if you fail to see a connection, but then vote as if there was an obvious connection... Well, I think you see my point. |
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12/16/2010 04:37:04 PM · #34 |
I have been a member of DPC for almost 7 years. I have voted in almost every challenge during that time period. This is the criteria I use in my personal evaluation.
1. Does the photograph meet the challenge description?
2. Does the composition and/or subject matter evoke an emotional response?
(Response can be positive or negative)
3. Does the technical choice of focus, b&w vs. color, etc. support the subject matter? (Not sure I am explaining this well, but...If it is blurry - is it because that supports the subject matter/composition or because the photographer took a blurry photo of a flower for example?)
I so enjoy looking at each entry, I vote on all entries, and I sometimes gasp at the absolute wonder of some of your images. Sometimes I laugh, sometimes I am touched, and sometimes I just say, "what the heck?", but always, always admire the time and effort each one of you dedicate to bringing you art to all of us.
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12/16/2010 05:12:00 PM · #35 |
Nevermind.
Message edited by author 2010-12-16 17:22:09. |
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12/16/2010 05:14:30 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
It is precisely an honest and fair appraisal that motivates my reserve to diminish an entry for a fault that may well be mine. I have no qualms with the ratings I receive for my own submissions to a challenge. I know all to well what I'm up against and expect no more, but when it comes to my own actions with regards to voting, I prefer not to use a sledge hammer to kill a fly. |
Ahh, but I disagree!!
I feel that if you fail to see the connection, the only honest thing to do is to mark down the entry, otherwise you are being somewhat dishonest, as you're voting upon a belief (that there is a valid connection)..
No offense intended, but I just feel that you are being a bit dishonest with yourself at this level, if you fail to see a connection, but then vote as if there was an obvious connection... Well, I think you see my point. |
That's quite a construct you extracted here. I don't vote on topicality, period. Challenges, as far as I'm concerned, are there for the creative benefit of the photographer, not for the unchecked glee of the uninitiated. I am interested in photographs and not at all in policing adherence to arbitrary challenge suggestions. And I believe, if we paid more attention to the work than to doling out wanton votes based on challenge descriptions addressing the entering participants, we'd all be better off for it.
Message edited by author 2010-12-16 17:16:04.
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12/16/2010 05:16:16 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by LydiaToo:
To me... this is contest on our photography.... Not a creative writing contest (titles) or a creativity contest (subject matter). |
some of us think that photography includes creativity.
some of us think that creativity is about more than subject matter. |
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12/16/2010 05:34:16 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
It is precisely an honest and fair appraisal that motivates my reserve to diminish an entry for a fault that may well be mine. I have no qualms with the ratings I receive for my own submissions to a challenge. I know all to well what I'm up against and expect no more, but when it comes to my own actions with regards to voting, I prefer not to use a sledge hammer to kill a fly. |
Ahh, but I disagree!!
I feel that if you fail to see the connection, the only honest thing to do is to mark down the entry, otherwise you are being somewhat dishonest, as you're voting upon a belief (that there is a valid connection)..
No offense intended, but I just feel that you are being a bit dishonest with yourself at this level, if you fail to see a connection, but then vote as if there was an obvious connection... Well, I think you see my point. |
That's quite a construct you extracted here. I don't vote on topicality, period. Challenges, as far as I'm concerned, are there for the creative benefit of the photographer, not for the unchecked glee of the uninitiated. I am interested in photographs and not at all in policing adherence to arbitrary challenge suggestions. And I believe, if we paid more attention to the work than to doling out wanton votes based on challenge descriptions addressing the entering participants, we'd all be better off for it. |
And here is where we must simply agree to agree and disagree. :) |
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12/16/2010 06:35:55 PM · #39 |
Holy shiznit.
Sorry to start a debate. . .apparently this fell too close to the DNMC topic that has four thousand billion posts.
I appreciate a lot of the input here, but it shows me that everyone has their own way of doing things. I personally don't disagree with too much that has been said, excepting that I can't imagine that photography is all technique and challenge adherence, or all creativity as a stand alone.
I sort of sciencify it like so.
Basic Vote 5
Techincal Aspect
Inredibly Poor (Bad Snapshot) -4
Very Poor Quality (Snapshot) -3
Poor Quality or Technique -2
Something off -1
Average 0
Something Catching +1
Good Photo +2
Great Photo +3
Freaking Amazing +4
Challenge Orientation
Obvious Shoehorn -3
Not Relating -2
Not communicated (TO ME) well -1
Basic Interpretation +0
Good Adherence/little clever +1
Very Clever/Example of Chall +2
Pic should be next to word in dictionary +3
Originality
Not very Original 0
Original for the challenge +1
Have rarely seen type of shot +2
Emotional Impact
Makes me want to punch my monitor -1
Some feel good or feel bad 0
Connects me to my inner child +1
Typically to get a 1, it has to score poorly in multiple areas, but it does happen. Likewise with a 10. . . I just try to use these guidelines so I don't poorly rate something based on mood or circumstance. It also helps me to pass through the photo's once without voting so I know what an original idea or shot is. Otherwise I go "SO CLEVER" 9, then see the same shot five down. "GOOD IDEA" 8, then by the end of the challenge, "SEEN IT" 5. . . which isn't very fair either. LOL.
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12/16/2010 06:44:23 PM · #40 |
| While on the subject of voting, the Voting guidelines say you should keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic. There was a challenge some time ago titled 4 to 5 AM, the description simple said take a picture between 4 & 5 AM, it didn’t say anything like show me what that time period looks like, the take on this site was if an image didn’t look like 4 in the morning it should be voted very low. To me take a picture between 4 & 5 means exactly that, the way the rules read the picture could be anything, I don’t understand why anyone would tank a picture on some concocted notion, the open minded bit in the rules seems to be lacking in a number of members of this site |
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12/16/2010 07:07:31 PM · #41 |
I think a lot also has to do with the type of challenge. A FS can be anything. A bicycle challenge would have to show some aspect of a bicycle to meet the challenge. But there have been challenges with multiple meanings, such as the recent "vintage". Some went with the "antique" meaning, others with the fermented grape meaning. Some challenges are implied topics. Much to my own chagrin, I always try to think outside the box and aim for an artistic interpretation - and am not always successful. But the recent horizon entry (thanks for the mention  sjhuls) is a case in point. It is posthumous-y, and appears to be a horizon, but is not. Well it is a horizon, but not between sky and earth.
The point towards which I am laboring is that you can't judge images any one single way. There has to be enough flexibility to factor in all the above things, as well as leave room for how your heart is affected when you look at the image. I value creativity a lot so I tend to be more lenient about technique when the image is exceptionally creative. And vice-versa - if it is a done-to-death topic but is technically brilliant, I won't ding it for subject matter. That being said, if the challenge is for a stock image and I submit a motion blur, I would judge it harshly for DNMC. |
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12/16/2010 07:08:11 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by crowis:
I sort of sciencify it like so.
Basic Vote 5 |
Note that with a 1-10 voting scale you are starting off rating "slightly below average (5.5 is the mean on our scale), and so it must have at least one better-than-average attribute in your system to even rate as "average" ... perhaps you might consider seeing if it makes a significant difference in the end if you start with a 6 instead ... |
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12/16/2010 07:09:00 PM · #43 |
This post is not some debating trap. I'm honestly interested in opinions. (Somehow I feel I need to state that)
Jeger posted a link to the National Geographic 2010 contest and I was intrigued by two pictures and whether one has more "meaning" than another.
There are a few obvious differences. B&W vs. color. People versus no people. Both are technically excellent. But are they "devoid of anything meaningful"? (only to borrow the phrase from Ed, not to assume he would label either of these that way).
Discuss. |
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12/16/2010 07:13:01 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
This post is not some debating trap. I'm honestly interested in opinions. (Somehow I feel I need to state that) |
OK. But why do you get to state your opinion only after everyone else? It seems to me that you could start off the discussion yourself -- it would feel less like "a trap" to me ... |
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12/16/2010 07:14:51 PM · #45 |
What the zeus said here and elsewhere: the challenge topic is not an assignment; it is a suggestion, a place to take off from. You are SUPPOSED to let yourself go. Let it be terrifying. How can we pretend that there are ways to measure this kind of thing?
I think the problem lies in fear, not only of flying, but of navigating without radar, without bell curves, without numerical criteria.
There is some pernicious idea about that there are right answers to everything and that if we work hard enough we will get to them. That it is our right to do so, and that there are winners and losers, and we must applaud the winner for his effort and chastise the loser for her lack of effort. |
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12/16/2010 07:15:54 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
But are they "devoid of anything meaningful"? |
I was wondering the same thing concerning landscapes. If a deeper meaning is vital, then most landscapes should gain automatic low votes from certain members. Maybe I'm missing something about the concept.
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12/16/2010 07:19:12 PM · #47 |
In response to the doc's question:
The shot with people, for me, is more meaningful, but does lack some technical merit, as it's no where near as crisp as the second example..
The shot of the Matterhorn is in an entirely different class, it really did hit me hard, and make me look deep into it, it's so odd how there is this wonderful smooth curve of white against so much hard blackness...
Both are wonderful images with huge impact, but the black and white image doesn't make the same connection to me as the first, as I could easily imagine myself being amongst the people shooting below.. |
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12/16/2010 07:19:54 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by crowis:
I sort of sciencify it like so.
Basic Vote 5 |
Note that with a 1-10 voting scale you are starting off rating "slightly below average (5.5 is the mean on our scale), and so it must have at least one better-than-average attribute in your system to even rate as "average" ... perhaps you might consider seeing if it makes a significant difference in the end if you start with a 6 instead ... |
I appreciate that feedback. Even though I deal with Math everyday in my occupation it hadn't occured to me that if you average the sum of 1 and 10 it is 5.5. However, I would add that my average vote in challenges tends to be 5.5 (plus or minus .5).
In fact, I often look at my average vote after voting to ensure I wasn't allowing mood, good or bad, to alter my opinion. . .and if my avg is way high or low, I will often re look at the photos and re-vote to ensure I haven't voted on a "bad day".
Message edited by author 2010-12-16 19:20:14.
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12/16/2010 07:20:29 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by tnun:
What the zeus said here and elsewhere: the challenge topic is not an assignment; it is a suggestion, a place to take off from. You are SUPPOSED to let yourself go. .......... |
BAH! Again, I say those are called freestudies. Otherwise we wouldn't have challenge topics or descriptions!
Message edited by author 2010-12-16 19:22:04. |
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12/16/2010 07:33:33 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
This post is not some debating trap. I'm honestly interested in opinions. (Somehow I feel I need to state that) |
OK. But why do you get to state your opinion only after everyone else? It seems to me that you could start off the discussion yourself -- it would feel less like "a trap" to me ... |
I would wet my pants if I captured either of those and both carry "meaning" to me. The B&W feels more "artistic", but I think that's just because I'm no less suseptible to the conventional wisdom that B&W signifies "art". One of the reasons for posting is that, as Spiff alluded to, if neither shot has "meaning" then I have no chance of reaching that crowd because these shots are holy grail examples of what I am shooting for. Meaningful shots, to that group, almost always have human subjects or are abstract which leaves landscape photography out. (As an aside, I think the panorama suffers from being so small. It probably looks much better big.)
Message edited by author 2010-12-16 19:34:40. |
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