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11/30/2010 09:17:30 AM · #1
This whole story is fascinating to me. I really hope this guy isn't prosecuted. The motive behind this is purely politically motivated.

the press HAS to maintain its free speech rights, no matter what. That amendment along with freedom of press was intended to provide a government watchdog outlet.

//www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/29/AR2010112905973.html

11/30/2010 10:00:26 AM · #2
I'm speaking from ignorance, because I haven't been keeping up with it -- other than reading just the headlines. If the recent leaks have been our impressions and private notes on foreign governments, the only purpose in leaking them is to stir up strife and cause hard feelings. Great. Just what we need. I'm sorry, but even though I believe in free speech, I have no respect for those who purposely create problems and then cry "free speech!! free speech!"

The press may have to retain it's first amendment rights -- but I also think they should use them carefully, wisely, and for the greater good.
11/30/2010 10:04:29 AM · #3
Originally posted by vawendy:

I'm speaking from ignorance, because I haven't been keeping up with it -- other than reading just the headlines. If the recent leaks have been our impressions and private notes on foreign governments, the only purpose in leaking them is to stir up strife and cause hard feelings. Great. Just what we need. I'm sorry, but even though I believe in free speech, I have no respect for those who purposely create problems and then cry "free speech!! free speech!"

The press may have to retain it's first amendment rights -- but I also think they should use them carefully, wisely, and for the greater good.


I agree with this statement. Lots of people in this country like to hide behind the free speech right with no accountability for what what they say.

11/30/2010 10:08:42 AM · #4
I'm all for Wikileaks. Basically, what it is doing is proper journalistic work. Now that, for the most part, the mainstream press has given up on its original purpose and has become nothing more than mouthpieces for the official line then Wikileaks are more needed than ever. Go Wikileaks! This guy is spot on in my view.

Message edited by author 2010-11-30 10:09:03.
11/30/2010 10:12:54 AM · #5
I think accountability and being held to your words, deeds and actions is a good thing.
Potentially destabilizing the world, even more so, is a very, very bad thing.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Common sense isn't so common.
11/30/2010 10:34:34 AM · #6
what this guy is "reporting" isnt military secrets, its things that politicians like clinton has done like ordering spying on un officials or the saudi king trying to persuade the us to invade iran. before its been things like names of thousands of agencies that have "top secret" security clearances.

he may be stirring up trouble, but thats what he needs to do. the world is run by a very small group of very powerful people, and they need to be kept in check.
11/30/2010 10:48:01 AM · #7
HA HA ! ALL THE POPULAR GIRLS HAVE BEEN CAUGHT GOSSIPING !

Will the teacher take their i-Phones away? Will the dregs continue to adore them?

What will become of the popular girls ?
11/30/2010 11:07:02 AM · #8
Originally posted by Strikeslip:

What will become of the popular girls ?

Bring back the cane. When I was a youngster six of the best never did anyone any harm.
11/30/2010 11:14:31 AM · #9
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

I'm all for Wikileaks. Basically, what it is doing is proper journalistic work. Now that, for the most part, the mainstream press has given up on its original purpose and has become nothing more than mouthpieces for the official line then Wikileaks are more needed than ever. Go Wikileaks! This guy is spot on in my view.


Same here.

Free speech free speech.....

The rape charges are what governments can do do put someone in jail that they fear can divulge secrets about diplomacy, etc.

We need Wikileaks more than you think people.
11/30/2010 11:25:11 AM · #10
Originally posted by JH:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:

What will become of the popular girls ?

Bring back the cane. When I was a youngster six of the best never did anyone any harm.

The popular girls are blowing this all out of proportion. The dregs always assumed there was gossip, and don't care whether they sip on a Bordeaux or a Claret.
11/30/2010 12:10:14 PM · #11
As Wendy said, I don't know all the facts of the story, and I believe none of us never really knows all the facts to any story :-

However...

As much as I believe in free speech and keeping the folks at the top honest, I also thing there is such a thing as national security. I'm not saying this is a case of that, but I'd be really pissed if my sense of security was imperiled because someone revealed something they shouldn't have, just because they could.
11/30/2010 12:44:01 PM · #12
Originally posted by tanguera:

As Wendy said, I don't know all the facts of the story, and I believe none of us never really knows all the facts to any story :-

However...

As much as I believe in free speech and keeping the folks at the top honest, I also thing there is such a thing as national security. I'm not saying this is a case of that, but I'd be really pissed if my sense of security was imperiled because someone revealed something they shouldn't have, just because they could.


if that's the case then the government is doing something that threatens your security, they just didn't want anyone to find out about it.
11/30/2010 01:04:33 PM · #13
The most surprising thing about the recent Wkileaks is that the actual leak was so huge, not what was leaked itself. If that makes sense. I mean, it doesn't come as a huge surprise to anyone that the U.S government (or any government) is involved with dodgy, illegal and immoral activity. Illegal surveillance and arms trading? Yea, obviously-it's U.S government for crying out loud! Of course they were! No surprise there.

11/30/2010 01:16:56 PM · #14
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

The most surprising thing about the recent Wkileaks is that the actual leak was so huge, not what was leaked itself. If that makes sense. I mean, it doesn't come as a huge surprise to anyone that the U.S government (or any government) is involved with dodgy, illegal and immoral activity. Illegal surveillance and arms trading? Yea, obviously-it's U.S government for crying out loud! Of course they were! No surprise there.


right, so go after whoever is giving the information, not the one ones reporting it.
11/30/2010 01:36:40 PM · #15
Wouldn't it be great if we all had such transparency? Just as Wikileaks has opened up the private communication of the US diplomatic corps for all to see (for the good of mankind) it would be great if all of our private conversations were reported to the people we were talking about.

Remember while you were cleaning up after thanksgiving? What you said about that one guest who drank too much and would not shut up about his golf game? It would be great if someone gave him a transcript. You know that conversation where you and your spouse wondered if your sister's daughter was sexually active? Wouldn't it be fun to have the world at large read your speculations? That snarky conversation about that guy at the office with the bad toupee? Go on share it, what could be the down side?

Sometimes privacy need to be ripped away like the photos of Abu Ghraib, or the pentagon papers. But to have every private conversation open to public review tends to put a damper on honesty.

So the net result of these leaks will be greater paranoia, less communication, less trust when speaking to an American official. If you believe that America is evil and ought to be marginalised on the world stage, then this is a great event.

Message edited by author 2010-11-30 13:39:35.
11/30/2010 01:56:27 PM · #16
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

So the net result of these leaks will be greater paranoia, less communication, less trust when speaking to an American official.


Haha. So the American official is caught out illegally spying on people and you think that is a shame because it will make people less trustful of said American official? And you put the blame on this on the people who uncovered the truth! Ha! Truth, Justice and the American Way indeed. Poor Superman must in tears.

E.T.A- I don't think America is evil but i do believe in the worth of proper investigative journalism. I also don't believe that people should just bury their heads in the sand whilst their governments engage in immoral and sometimes illegal foreign activity even if they think that is best for their own 'security'. I think people should stop being so fearful of their governments and of the 'threats' they told are ever present and grow some balls.

Message edited by author 2010-11-30 14:06:18.
11/30/2010 02:03:35 PM · #17
What goes around, comes around. How can any person blame exposure of death and destruction and blatant disregard for the privacy and integrity of world leaders.

How can anyone blame the wiki for reporting the truth? Let's blame the origin of these documents, the beginning of them all. Do we call "Karzia's brother is a %#@$ and a &^%##&" good diplomacy? What is the benefit of getting DNA from top Leaders, Ban Kyu Mun, head of the UN, included? Even if Prince *^%$ is an arrogant ass, what right does the politicians, APPOINTED BY US, have to practice that kind of diplomacy and politics.

Blame the origin, those who has no respect for the human dignity of others nor for basic human decency, not the whistle blower. Surely, you must be tired of being lied to?

Security? Protected by a veil of vulgarity? Nope, maybe, just maybe, we will learn to appreciate honesty, integrity and real human rights again.
11/30/2010 02:04:51 PM · #18
sometimes people in power tend to abuse that power, and reminding them that the world is watching and reacting to their behavior is not always a bad thing.

The government perceives the public to be too stupid, or would rather them be too stupid to what really goes on.

The world doesn't trust the government not because of sources like wiki leaks, but because they often are or appear at times a bit to secretive in their actions.

11/30/2010 02:05:54 PM · #19
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

So the net result of these leaks will be greater paranoia, less communication, less trust when speaking to an American official.


Haha. So the American official is caught out illegally spying on people and you think that is a shame because it will make people less trustful of said American official? And you put the blame on this on the people who uncovered the truth! Ha! Truth, Justice and the American Way indeed. Poor Superman must in tears.


Well, Clive, you're hopelessly naive if you don't think this kind of crap goes on, and always has gone on, between all countries involved in international diplomacy. It's a dirty business, a secretive and unappealing one, and it always has been. Read up on Sir Francis Walsingham, if you're not already familiar with him.

So, governments have always practiced this shadowy business, out of sight and behind closed doors. What's different now is that modern technology is allowing the whole sordid quagmire to be exposed. Now, I'm not defending anyone's actions, not our diplomats nor the people who exposed these communications, but it *does* occur to me to question why this is directed specifically at the US when absolutely every country is guilty of this crap...

Will we be better off, collectively, if the world of diplomacy and international relations becomes radically more transparent? In the long run, almost certainly. In the short run, not so much...

R.

ETA: I'm pretty sure you're NOT that naive, so I guess my question is "Why are you jeering at US when we're down? It could be anyone..."
11/30/2010 02:10:57 PM · #20
Originally posted by Bear_Music:


ETA: I'm pretty sure you're NOT that naive, so I guess my question is "Why are you jeering at US when we're down? It could be anyone..."


I don't think so either. Please read my earlier post in this thread Robert where i said almost exactly what you have just done. And please don't think i am jeering. I've made a point of say 'any government' after each time i've said 'U.S government'. I'd like to think you'd give me a bit more credit than that.
11/30/2010 02:11:56 PM · #21
You may be shocked to learn that spies spy, I am not. Every country has spies that gather information that they see as being essential for them to formulate policy.

We learned that "The United States has been secretly trying to convince Pakistan to allow it to remove the uranium because of fears the nuclear material might be stolen or diverted for use in a nuclear device, the New York Times reported in its coverage of the WikiLeaks release of U.S. embassy cables.

But Pakistan has refused visits from American experts, according to a May 2009 report by former U.S. Ambassador Anne W. Patterson, because "If the local media got word of the fuel removal, 'they would certainly portray it as the United States taking Pakistan's nuclear weapons,'"


So this exposure proves that Pakistan was right. For their internal politics it is better to risk having nuclear material fall into the hands of terrorists than to give it to the US because the US can't keep it secret, while Al Quieda certainly will. Until they use it.

Purity in government policy is a lovely ideal, and I sure wish Superman was really with us to save the day, but he is a comic book character, and if you expect people to go keep your country safe from those who wish you harm, you can expect them to do some impure things if they are going to get the job done.
11/30/2010 02:15:14 PM · #22
Correct mike_311, who is after all watching the the watchers? Wikileaks, I salute you. Hope you live long enough in freedom to do it again and again.

Reminds me, the big war here in South Africa, the so called Border War blamed on the South Africans... how much did the CIA had to do with it? How many times did we deal with the food and weapon drops for the Opposition of the Cuban supported SWAPO? How many of the most horrific weapons of war, the land-mines, were supplied by us?
How many other wars did our governments start and maintained? How much accountability is actually non-existent? So in my mind, wikileaks has much more to do.... Squeeze that pimple buddy, squeeze it!
11/30/2010 02:17:57 PM · #23
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

I've made a point of say 'any government' after each time i've said 'U.S government'. I'd like to think you'd give me a bit more credit than that.


I think if wikileaks had had access to every nations' secrets it would not have been such a bad thing, forcing all the world's secrets onto the table would be for the good. However what they have done is shown the world the American hand in this high stakes poker game we call diplomacy, while every other player at the table gets to guard their own.
11/30/2010 02:21:46 PM · #24
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

I've made a point of say 'any government' after each time i've said 'U.S government'. I'd like to think you'd give me a bit more credit than that.


I think if wikileaks had had access to every nations' secrets it would not have been such a bad thing, forcing all the world's secrets onto the table would be for the good. However what they have done is shown the world the American hand in this high stakes poker game we call diplomacy, while every other player at the table gets to guard their own.


Well, yes. I get your point there. I agree with you that Wikileaks should get onto some other countries dirty dealings like it has done so well in the past.
11/30/2010 02:24:01 PM · #25
BrennanOB, high trees.....

I absolutely agree with you. Your top nations should all make interesting reading. But then, not all of them cloak themselves as the greatest nation on earth, the police force policing the world..
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