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11/28/2010 04:48:13 PM · #1
Originally posted by tnun:

The idea that there is something suspicious about finding ribbon pics seriously lacking, guilty unless proved innocent.....


True enough and I would add that they are not alone in that category. :O)

Ray

Message edited by author 2010-11-28 16:48:31.
11/28/2010 01:46:41 PM · #2
I want to thank Leo for starting this thread. Although I rarely vote, I am jealous of my right to scatter 1's, 2's and 3's wherever I see fit: ubique's non desiderata has wonderfully stimulated my acumen:

"I give any photograph that is hackneyed, derivative, bromidic, cloying or cheesy a 3."

The idea that there is something suspicious about finding ribbon pics seriously lacking, guilty unless proved innocent.....

11/28/2010 12:43:06 PM · #3
I believe in a bell curve, unless the photos in the challenge are obviously all above average. Free studies, though, are always a bell curve for me. Fair compared to other voters? Maybe not, but I see the challenge as just one set, not in comparison to other challenges.

3 - Technically weak, decent subject, otherwise boring. But, still creative enough to make me try to understand the photo. I will put a lot of abstract photos that I see as being "abstract for the sake of being abstract". In other words - the photo was made to look odd for no reason but the look. Sometimes it works, but those that do don't get 3s.
2 - Creatively-lacking, technically horrendous. A blurry portrait, dull flower, and ugly-processed pet photo would fall into this category.
1 - DNMC or a photo that is obviously trying too hard to run the "cute" line. No creativity used and would only be used as a scrapbook or family album photo. I reserve the 1 in my bell-curve photos for the worst photo(s) of the challenge.

It's not perfect, but I find that the cream rises to the top in challenges. The photos at the bottom of my scaling have rarely been on the front page - I'm still trying to search for them. I vote emotional, then technical.
11/28/2010 12:30:44 PM · #4
I use the whole scale otherwise having 1 and 2 on the scale is pointless.

Many shots get a 5 or lower. Any shot that grabs my attention while voting gets a 6. After I'm done I go back through the 6's and differentiate them. I usually give at least one 10 to the best of the bunch and then group them. So if two photos are "as good" as each other they'll be grouped together say, as 8s. Then the next group that I like equally are grouped as 7's etc.
11/28/2010 12:19:01 PM · #5
Originally posted by bvy:

I've never given a one. Twos are reserved for toddlers kissing Momma's pregnant belly. It's all uphill from there.


on that note, every wine glass i see from this point forward gets a 1.
11/28/2010 11:43:15 AM · #6
I give ones for Charlie Baker-ish single color very small square entries. But that's what he expects anyway. I will give twos for a couple of subjects that I find repulsive, which no matter how artistically presented I simply do not wish to see. I will give 5s or 6s to perfectly executed technically sound photographs that I really just don't like. I will give 7s or 8s to technically imperfect photographs that make me smile. And I quite often love snapshots. Much like the "real" cyclists scorn "tri-geeks", "photographers" must appreciate the snapshooters, for they are the ones who really keep the camera business in business.
11/28/2010 11:30:35 AM · #7
I've never given a one. Twos are reserved for toddlers kissing Momma's pregnant belly. It's all uphill from there.
11/28/2010 09:35:18 AM · #8
Originally posted by Qiki:

I don't personally vote 1's all that often, but then again I don't vote many 10's either. We are given a scale of 1 to 10 to vote in and so I use the entire scale. I'd guess my voting patterns could be represented as a normal distribution curve (my average vote of around 5.1 certainly seems to back this up). But, so what? And so what if others vote differently? I think all we can really ask for from voters is that they put a little thought in to their voting and vote consistently. If you think my entry is inferior to another, go ahead and vote lower. But please don't vote it down just because you don't like the subject matter etc.


+1

I rarely give out 1,2,3 and 10's unless i think they absolutely deserve it.

you really have to not try or clearly DMC for me to give out a 1 or 2 and a 10 has to be absolutely exceptional.
11/28/2010 08:45:31 AM · #9
Originally posted by Mambe:

...What I've noticed recently is that I ask more to great technical photos, when photographers reach a high level of technique what I want to see is perfection.
To illustrate that an example : ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1297/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_919839.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1297/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_919839.jpg', '/') + 1) . ', I miss a wet zone in the knife (the tomato should have left a trace on the blade). Picky ? Yes, very picky. But when voting this means a 8 instead of a 9 or 10, I'm not that bad ! lol


There are two things here,

1-If the knife had wet spots on it, a clean image would be ruined
2-If you want perfection, did you see the finger cuts on the other hand? I think pretty good detail if you ask me.

Anywho, These are the explanations we're looking for, however, not for 4 and up but 3 and low for the ribbon winners.
11/28/2010 05:59:19 AM · #10
I don't give 1s, nor 2s; my lower vote is 3 and I seldom give 3s. It's like giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Also I'm more open minded than before, so no DNMC from me because I don't dominate english language and I can easily miss a meaning, a pun.

There are things I don't like, for example tatoos but sometimes it's not that concrete, it's more like an attitude, the pose of a model. Sometimes I prefer not to vote the photos that "offend" me because it's not their fault, it's just how I am or how I see the world.

What I've noticed recently is that I ask more to great technical photos, when photographers reach a high level of technique what I want to see is perfection.
To illustrate that an example : ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1297/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_919839.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1297/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_919839.jpg', '/') + 1) . ', I miss a wet zone in the knife (the tomato should have left a trace on the blade). Picky ? Yes, very picky. But when voting this means a 8 instead of a 9 or 10, I'm not that bad ! lol

11/28/2010 05:11:02 AM · #11
Originally posted by sjhuls:

To get a 1 from me you have to do 2 things a DNMC and have technically a very poor picture.


That's pretty much how I work. My lowest score of 3 is reserved for what I feel are very poor pictures - no subject, poor framing, bad snapshot style photos. In addition, I will dock a point if I feel a photo does not meet the challenge, 2 points if it's a complete shoehorn. So to get a 2 or a 1 you have to combine a poor photo with a DNMC.

I've given out my fair share of 1,2,3 votes, and I usually comment on them when I do - with the exception of the recent challenge metal on metal challenge which resulted in a whole bunch of 1's from me and I was not a bit inclined to explain why.

Although I will leave a comment if I drop you a 1,2,3 vote, I won't actually state my vote - I'll leave that to vote trackers to work out.

ETA: Just realise that doesn't really meet the topic on why 1,2,3 to a ribbon winner - can't say I have ever done that. I'm hard pressed to find a ribbon winner I gave less than a 6 to - obviously I'm a sucker for eye candy.

Message edited by author 2010-11-28 05:14:19.
11/28/2010 03:43:39 AM · #12
I am hijacking this thread over a comment that has been bothering me, and I find it relates to some of the things discussed here so here is as good a place as any to discuss it.

I recently got a comment on one of my challenge entries that simply said "5" How is this helpful? I already know you gave me a 5 from the vote tracker. Why post what you gave someone without an explanation? I would much rather have gotten this comment "5, because it is boring and didn't move me." Much harsher but much more useful. Or no comment at all.

I also wonder why we don't have the option to have comments remain anonymous. I think we would be getting much more honest feedback if the person giving the 1 didn't have to disclose their identity. I know this is an option during voting, but then your name is displayed after rollover so it seems pointless.

For the record I hardly ever give a 1. To get a 1 from me you have to do 2 things a DNMC and have technically a very poor picture. But I do give out my fair share of 4's and 5's. These are reserved for pictures that are for the most part technically sound but didn't move me in any way, or for those like in the off centered challenge that were technically very good but in my opinion not off centered enough. A great example is this picture by ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' h2
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1297/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_919862.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1297/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_919862.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' I loved this picture but I just couldn't make it be a good example of an off centered photo.
11/28/2010 02:09:06 AM · #13
Originally posted by Fiora:

Sometimes you just don't like a photo!

Ok, so its not a 1,2 or 3. But I gave this recent 2nd place ribbon winner a 5! The lowest I have ever voted a ribbon winner
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1294/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_917780.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1294/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_917780.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
I found it boring, and I didn't think it told that much of a story. I could acknowledge the skill of the left and right photo, but I thought the middle one was soft. Mainly, I didn't like the look of face alignment, and since I had seen several before voting on this one I was tired of the concept.
Sometimes it just happens. Every low vote is not a troll.
Granted a 5 isn't a 1, but I also know that a lot of people vote differently or harsher than I do, and that's fine.
"Wow, I really don't like this picture" could mean a really low vote for some people who primarily vote on opinion than technical skill (which is perfectly acceptable in my opinion)


And let's face it (pun intended), ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Art Roflmao, an unlikely contender, really set the bar pretty high here...
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1110/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_828744.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1110/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_828744.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Message edited by author 2010-11-28 02:09:20.
11/28/2010 02:04:39 AM · #14
Originally posted by ubique:

Originally posted by oscarthepig:

I vote 1 if a photo pisses me off in any way whatsoever. It could be an overused subject, one of those horrendous borders, or the subject itself could just irk me. There was one instance where the guy in the photo just looked like an ass, so I voted it low. If you don't like it, get over yourself.


Brilliant post! The world needs more oscarthepigs (oscarsthepig?). DPC could certainly use a few more. And a few less of the reverse. Thank you, Oscar.


Unfortunately, Oscar has passed and is buried in my back yard. So the world is lacking an Oscar the Pig at the moment. We do have a Buinea G. Pig, though (named for Benny Goodman, as I happened to be playing my clarinet at the time).
11/28/2010 02:01:50 AM · #15
Sometimes you just don't like a photo!

Ok, so its not a 1,2 or 3. But I gave this recent 2nd place ribbon winner a 5! The lowest I have ever voted a ribbon winner
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1294/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_917780.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1294/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_917780.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
I found it boring, and I didn't think it told that much of a story. I could acknowledge the skill of the left and right photo, but I thought the middle one was soft. Mainly, I didn't like the look of face alignment, and since I had seen several before voting on this one I was tired of the concept.
Sometimes it just happens. Every low vote is not a troll.
Granted a 5 isn't a 1, but I also know that a lot of people vote differently or harsher than I do, and that's fine.
"Wow, I really don't like this picture" could mean a really low vote for some people who primarily vote on opinion than technical skill (which is perfectly acceptable in my opinion)
11/28/2010 02:01:23 AM · #16
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Originally posted by oscarthepig:

I vote 1 if a photo pisses me off in any way whatsoever. It could be an overused subject, one of those horrendous borders, or the subject itself could just irk me. There was one instance where the guy in the photo just looked like an ass, so I voted it low. If you don't like it, get over yourself.

I appreciate the honest answer. I don't think I can agree with your criteria, but again, it is up to the individual to utilize the votes as they see fit, and you probably wouldn't agree with all of my voting choices. Thanks.


Well, just for the record, Grog never look like ass.
11/28/2010 01:50:21 AM · #17
I don't think there is any one answer, Leo. We cannot legislate people's taste, nor impose our point of view on everyone. Yes, DPC is definitely a place to grow and learn, and for a lot of people it's mostly about that. But it's not that for everyone. For some it's competition; others, camaraderie, etc. If you look closely, the number of images that do NOT receive 1s and 2s is minuscule. It's rather rare for an image to NOT get a few low scores. Why? The most obvious answer is because they can. However, it is what it is, and it's not that important.
11/28/2010 01:44:22 AM · #18
Originally posted by oscarthepig:

I vote 1 if a photo pisses me off in any way whatsoever. It could be an overused subject, one of those horrendous borders, or the subject itself could just irk me. There was one instance where the guy in the photo just looked like an ass, so I voted it low. If you don't like it, get over yourself.


Brilliant post! The world needs more oscarthepigs (oscarsthepig?). DPC could certainly use a few more. And a few less of the reverse. Thank you, Oscar.
11/28/2010 01:41:44 AM · #19
Originally posted by oscarthepig:

I vote 1 if a photo pisses me off in any way whatsoever. It could be an overused subject, one of those horrendous borders, or the subject itself could just irk me. There was one instance where the guy in the photo just looked like an ass, so I voted it low. If you don't like it, get over yourself.

I appreciate the honest answer. I don't think I can agree with your criteria, but again, it is up to the individual to utilize the votes as they see fit, and you probably wouldn't agree with all of my voting choices. Thanks.
11/28/2010 01:40:45 AM · #20
Originally posted by ubique:

...Leo, your fixation with low votes is beginning to seem a little deranged. Conspiracy theory stuff. Let me refer to an exchange of PM's that you and I recently had...


I am sorry... do I know you? If you explained yourself, why are you here explaining it again? I didn't call you by name, it's a general post for everyone... :-\
11/28/2010 01:22:53 AM · #21
I vote 1 if a photo pisses me off in any way whatsoever. It could be an overused subject, one of those horrendous borders, or the subject itself could just irk me. There was one instance where the guy in the photo just looked like an ass, so I voted it low. If you don't like it, get over yourself.
11/28/2010 12:41:27 AM · #22
I think the point of this thread should be not to go "troll hunting". What I would like, is to understand the legitimate reasons someone gives a low vote to an otherwise high scoring entry. I did actually receive a comment to go with a recent 1. First time that's ever happened. Post challenge I had a short but polite exchange with the commenter who explained his reasoning in more detail. I don't agree with the reasons, but it is their right to use the scale however they wish and I now have more of an understanding for at least some of those lowball votes.

Thanks to the willingness of members like ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Ubique and ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Posthumous to explain their own criteria, I will usually take a 3 to mean that my entry just failed to connect with that voter in any way, even though it may still be technically competent.

If anyone who gave a low vote to my military entry wishes to use it as an example, you have my permission to discuss the qualities or lack of qualities that gained it that vote. I've got a thick skin.
11/27/2010 11:49:37 PM · #23
I don't personally vote 1's all that often, but then again I don't vote many 10's either. We are given a scale of 1 to 10 to vote in and so I use the entire scale. I'd guess my voting patterns could be represented as a normal distribution curve (my average vote of around 5.1 certainly seems to back this up). But, so what? And so what if others vote differently? I think all we can really ask for from voters is that they put a little thought in to their voting and vote consistently. If you think my entry is inferior to another, go ahead and vote lower. But please don't vote it down just because you don't like the subject matter etc.
11/27/2010 11:42:00 PM · #24
Originally posted by FocusPoint:

Why did you give 1,2 or 3 to ribbon winner pictures


Leo, your fixation with low votes is beginning to seem a little deranged. Conspiracy theory stuff. Let me refer to an exchange of PM's that you and I recently had.

In summary:
- You commented post challenge on a ribbon winning picture, saying that voters who gave it a 1,2 or 3 were 'losers, bull crappers and clowns', and offered to debate the matter with any of them who would identify themselves.

- I PM'd you to say that I gave the image a 3 and said that I'd be happy to publicly explain why and debate it with you, if you first got the permission of the photographer.

- You responded that my voting average of 4 point something put me in troll territory. You said that it was not the 'norm' to vote that way, and that there was a 'norm' that should be followed by all voters. All good photographs should be scored high by all voters.

- I pointed out that the apparent definition of a troll (from the forums) appears to be either (a) anyone who votes low on a highly popular image, or (b) anyone who votes low at all, but especially (c) anyone who votes low on your own entry. I also pointed out the totalitarian implications of your 'norm' voting theory.

- You then told me that DPC is a learning site and that members should be encouraged with high scores, rather than dispirited by low scores, and also that I should be the one to seek the photographer's permission to debate the merits his ribbon-winning photograph.

Why give low scores?
There are many reasons why people vote low on certain images. All of them are valid, even if some are apparently irrational. I very often find that I have given ribbon winning images low scores, so I will give you my usual reasons for doing so, even though I feel pretty sure it will make no difference at all to your own position. However, someone else might read it and reflect.

My own voting system
I give any photograph that is hackneyed, derivative, bromidic, cloying or cheesy a 3. Alas that applies to about three quarters of ribbon winners. Technical merit does not even enter into my deliberations at this point.

I give any photograph that is moderately interesting a 5. Technical merit and degree of difficulty are still largely irrelevant, although in some cases the way in which a photograph has been executed can contribute to its interest, but only as a secondary consideration.

I give all photographs that are original, stimulating, imaginative and unexpected a 7. Technical merit matters only to the extent that it contributes to the excitement.

Then I look at all my 7s (about a dozen, in most challenges) several times more, generally on another day or days, looking for what I think are the truly durable images. I'll usually make one a 10, one a 9, and perhaps a couple of 8s. Then I make some comments to explain my preferences.

I always vote on every image when I vote at all. I always vote on those challenges I have entered. I don't compare any entry with my own, nor indeed with any other entry. I don't have any real interest in my own score.

One example explained
I don't explain my low votes with comments any more because it's pointless. The recipient almost invariably doesn't want to understand, only to argue. But as you have insisted in this forum, here is one example:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/759/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_603863.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/759/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_603863.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Had I voted on this challenge I would have given that image a 3. It is a technically decent photograph, largely due to a very good lens and the photographer's sympathetic processing, but that is to me of no consequence at all, because the image fell at the first hurdle: it is not at all convincing as a slice of real life (and that is the photographer's clear intention here, to offer this photograph as a real-life image ... it's not being offered as a still life or a studio portrait). The image is a cliché, both compositionally and conceptually, and the total effect is nothing less than mawkish. Thus the competence of the photographer and his equipment is irrelevant to my evaluation of it.

Thank you and good night
I have little interest in photography as a craft. I enjoy photographs, but I find photography itself boring. I enjoy writing too, but I am not much interested in the techniques of typing. For me a camera is just a tool, a useful instrument for assaying the imagination. And so I vote accordingly.

Edit to Add (in case any reader is moved to check) I would rate all of my own top five scoring images as a 3.

Message edited by author 2010-11-27 23:59:22.
11/27/2010 11:26:23 PM · #25
I don't think I've handed out any 1s . . . I have given a few 2s and a few more 3s. I think I remember commenting on those, though. Usually a photo starts with a 5 if it meets the challenge and the score increases with it's increased "wow" factor - be it impression on me, my emotional response, technical aspect of the photo, etc. If the picture meets the challenge, but there is little or no pop, or "wow" the score stays at 5. If the photo DNMC but is a quality picture, I will give it a 4 and comment accordingly. If the picture just looks like the shutter tripped as the camera was dropped, I will give it less than 4.
I find it very difficult to appropriately comment on photos that I give a 5 or a 6 for . . . If I score it 7 and up or 4 and lower, honest comments are easy.
Oh, and it took me a while to not score in a comparative fashion, either. I think I finally have that licked -

I don't know if that is the right way to score, but it helps me be consistent.
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