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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> What are my rights in this situation??
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11/27/2010 01:29:47 AM · #26
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

What are your rights? Well you have the right to acquire an attorney (a good IP attorney). Anything other than that is just speculation on our part.

I would definitely go ahead an register the program with the copyright office.


I wouldn't copyright it since it's possible that a different IP protection strategy (i.e. a patent) may be advantageous and one may preclude the other. I'm not an IP attorney, but I do have practical experience in IP matters. My opinion is that the software falls under the scope of "shop right" as detailed in the links I posted earlier, but it's definitely worth consulting an IP attorney, depending on what the OP wants to get out of his creation.
11/27/2010 08:52:04 AM · #27
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

What are your rights? Well you have the right to acquire an attorney (a good IP attorney). Anything other than that is just speculation on our part.

I would definitely go ahead an register the program with the copyright office.


Originally posted by Spork99:

I wouldn't copyright it since it's possible that a different IP protection strategy (i.e. a patent) may be advantageous and one may preclude the other. I'm not an IP attorney, but I do have practical experience in IP matters. My opinion is that the software falls under the scope of "shop right" as detailed in the links I posted earlier, but it's definitely worth consulting an IP attorney, depending on what the OP wants to get out of his creation.

I still think this is too much of a case of closing the barn door after the horse is gone. If this whole thing was thought out properly, and with the intention of creating something relevant and significant which you may have wanted for your own, why on earth would you have done it at work in the first place? I know that'd be my first question in a courtroom from the other side of the fence.
11/27/2010 10:59:21 AM · #28
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

What are your rights? Well you have the right to acquire an attorney (a good IP attorney). Anything other than that is just speculation on our part.

I would definitely go ahead an register the program with the copyright office.


Originally posted by Spork99:

I wouldn't copyright it since it's possible that a different IP protection strategy (i.e. a patent) may be advantageous and one may preclude the other. I'm not an IP attorney, but I do have practical experience in IP matters. My opinion is that the software falls under the scope of "shop right" as detailed in the links I posted earlier, but it's definitely worth consulting an IP attorney, depending on what the OP wants to get out of his creation.

I still think this is too much of a case of closing the barn door after the horse is gone. If this whole thing was thought out properly, and with the intention of creating something relevant and significant which you may have wanted for your own, why on earth would you have done it at work in the first place? I know that'd be my first question in a courtroom from the other side of the fence.


Nonetheless, an IP attorney will be able to sort it out his knowledge of how the law applies to the facts before taking any action rather than speculation.
11/27/2010 11:21:24 AM · #29
Originally posted by Spork99:

Nonetheless, an IP attorney will be able to sort it out his knowledge of how the law applies to the facts before taking any action rather than speculation.

True that.....
11/27/2010 12:57:07 PM · #30
There is one sure thing here. An attorney will stir the pot enough to make himself as much money as you are willing to pay him, or another brother attorney to get you out of the mess he creates for you. Look, you developed part of this on company time and equipment while being paid to do your regular job, which looks like may be required only part time. Someone other than you knows this and they also would like a raise. Learn from this. No good deed goes unpunished. If you are that good, develop another software on your own time, with your own stuff. Push too hard and you may find yourself with plenty of time at home.

Message edited by author 2010-11-27 18:03:34.
11/27/2010 01:16:18 PM · #31
Originally posted by David Ey:

There is one sure thing here. An attorney will stir the pot enough to make himself enough money as you are willing to pay him, or another brother attorney to get you out of the mess he creates for you.


I have to agree 100% with David on this thought. Hiring an attorney in this situation is tantamount to lighting the fuse on a stick of dynamite in a warehouse full of fireworks.
11/27/2010 02:39:15 PM · #32
Not all attorneys are bad people.

But you need to think about how far you want to take this, before you take the first step. I've developed applications outside of my job description on company time, and at home for the company. It was/is my understanding that they hold all rights to what I did. I'm good with that, as I was rewarded in other ways. I also saw what happened to someone who developed an app on company time for the company, outside of her job description, and then tried to lock it up so that she would have to be called back as a consultant when she left. It wasn't pretty, and she didn't win.

It never made it to a full court hearing so no "official" judgement was rendered. However, are you willing to leave the job that you now have? Are you prepared to foot the bill for legal challenges and appeals? Are you willing to get a reputation as a troublemaker and hope that your skills and value outweigh your reputation? If the answer to any of these is no, then perhaps it would be best to make nice with the company and work towards a promotion and/or raise. I chose the latter and it has worked out well for me.

Life isn't always fair, the good guy/gal doesn't always win. No matter how one feels things "should" be, reality is reality and the bigger the opponent the more resources or cut and dried case you need.
11/27/2010 02:54:35 PM · #33
Why didn`t you just say "Look what I did at home last night"?

I personally think that if this was done on company time and on their equipment they will own the rights to it..

Next question is - is this an HTML application or a C++ or .NET application? If so, and you say coding isnt in your job description, who installed the software on your work computer that allowed you to do this? You, do you own the software? Is it installed anywhere else? If in HTML or other code base that doesnt need compiling then no probs - but if you are installing your own coding software on the computer then that a whole new set of problems.

Message edited by author 2010-11-27 14:55:10.
11/27/2010 06:22:45 PM · #34
Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by David Ey:

There is one sure thing here. An attorney will stir the pot enough to make himself enough money as you are willing to pay him, or another brother attorney to get you out of the mess he creates for you.


I have to agree 100% with David on this thought. Hiring an attorney in this situation is tantamount to lighting the fuse on a stick of dynamite in a warehouse full of fireworks.


I never suggested he hire an attorney immediately, simply consult with one to discuss his options. A good IP attorney will lay out his options and let him know where he stands and his options. The decision to start legal proceedings belongs solely to the OP. He should understand what his options are before starting to negotiate for anything.
11/27/2010 06:38:56 PM · #35
Originally posted by dponlyme:

I did write most of it on their time at work. I did work on it some when off of the clock though.


Anyone ever hear of WD40? Developed by a Chemist at General Dynamics, what ever the plant was called then, in Fort Worth, Texas. The company didn't want it. Didn't think it was worth anything so they gave it to the chemist that developed it because he did it on company time, then it belonged to them and not to him. Many states have those types of laws to project the company who is employing the person and therefore his skills and creativity too.

My best suggestion is to see if you can make a deal with them. You could perhaps be compensated but not necessarily so, for your work. Be reasonable though because at least in Texas, they would only have to compensate your for the time that you worked on the project, OFF THE CLOCK.

Good luck,


11/27/2010 07:48:26 PM · #36
For the record GDFW, now Lockheed is located on US Government Property, not Texas.
12/12/2010 01:14:11 PM · #37
Thanks all for the responses... I am definitely not going to try to assert my rights to the software if indeed I have any. I am going to hope that they decide to compensate me in some way if they choose to implement the program on a mass scale. They may just want to use the ideas behind the software and code it themselves.

To answer some of the questions: It is written in HTML and Javascipt (all done with a text editor and a web browser) so no need to install any kind of IDE or special programming software. It really can only be used with systems that are currently in place (all developed in house) so there is not much chance of selling this elsewhere really. Currently it is installed on my supervisors computer (and she loves it), and one of the CSR's who was struggling(now he has great numbers). It was installed on two other CSR's computers but they are leaving the department for another next week.

Looks like the meeting is being pushed to January to give us time to get a presentation together (and for me to get my code in order and well documented). They are offering time away from my normal duties to get this done so they are definitely serious about this.

I hope that they do see that I could be of greater value in software development. I am not going to hold my breath. It is certainly rewarding and indeed I am very honored to be in a position to make a real difference in improving how things are done. It has already done wonders for my reputation at work.
12/12/2010 02:41:25 PM · #38
Originally posted by David Ey:

For the record GDFW, now Lockheed is located on US Government Property, not Texas.

David, I'm not sure what the the point of your statement is, with regard to the OP's question. Are you suggesting this distinction changes the legalities involved?
12/12/2010 03:25:28 PM · #39
I think it does Steve.
Mom said "Many states have those types of laws ..........." and I was just saying that GDFW is not under the laws of Texas.

12/12/2010 04:01:16 PM · #40
My understanding is that the Fort Worth Division ran more on Local and State guidelines and regulations than Federal but that also depended on what department you were in. Air Force Plant #4, aka General Dynamics, Fort Worth sits next door to what was then Carswell Air Force Base. My grandfather and my father both worked there and my grandfather knew the chemist.

The legalities of ownership of development done on company time is pretty universal in most states and in Federal Regulations, as my understanding goes. Unless specified anything developed during the time that you are paid by a company to do a specific job, is their property because under the rules of employment, they paid for it.

Now, if your employer states that the development is of no interest to them and gifts it to the developer then from that moment on it is theirs. But the owner must legally state that or it is questionable and therefore legally ambiguous.

I am not a lawyer but my Dad was. He was legal counsel for the Fort Worth Division till I was 12 when he move to the Corporate Offices. (I hated St. Louis)

Although GD was on Federal Lands, which they had to be to maintain their security clearances and such. The 'doing business' part of the division operated under the laws and regulations of where the facility was located.
12/12/2010 04:05:05 PM · #41
Case closed. I guess my ass is the blackest.
12/12/2010 04:17:49 PM · #42
It isn't, you made a good point. Things do matter where you work and who regulates your work. Whether it is a local company who operates under federal regulations or a local business who has different regulatory agencies that take care of them. There were divisions here that had developments that did belong to the company under federal regs and other departments that used state regs. That happens all over the US. Good point and have enjoyed the debate that helps increase work force understanding in this diverse age.


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