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09/01/2010 11:50:12 PM · #26 |
Another fan of Joe McNally. I got his "The Moment it Clicks" for Christmas one year and decided to buy "Hot Shoe Diaries" to try to learn more about using flash (which I don't generally use that much). I recently tried it on a camping trip for some campfire shots. Put two orange gels on and put the flash (SB-600) on the ground so the light would be warm and coming from roughly the same direction as the fire. Didn't crop out the flash in this one to show what I did. I have played around with a tungsten white balance/ orange gel combo at home but not in any real world (outside) shooting yet. Joe makes things seem easy (and after a while it perhaps is) and he covers things from very simple single flash to placing literally dozens around the area. His "big thing" right now seems to be to put at least two together behind a difuser of some sort and fire away. Saw some where the flashes were brighter than the daytime sun in the desert where he was shooting. You can get flash gels really cheap- I bought a "sample pack" or swatch books through BH photo for a couple of bucks. Other places like Amazon have them too. Some places might even give them away. Too small for on a lens but plenty big enough for a flash. I had this pic in another thread- sorry to those who saw it already.
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09/02/2010 03:32:16 PM · #27 |
I'm so confused, and I just started.
I read that when you change the exposure compensation, it affects the flash as well. So that if you dial down the exposure, you need to up the flash (not necessarily equivalent, but up it to something.)
I tried moving the flash off camera. I'm using my 7D to remotely trigger the 580ex. I turned off flash on the 7D, so that only the external flash was functioning.
The light from the left side of the pitcher is from the flash.
The light from the right side of the pitcher is ambient light from a window.
Here are 4 shots -- each consecutive shot has another -.66EV dialed in. Shouldn't the lighting from the flash decrease as well? Why is the flash intensity staying the same?
Please help!
Message edited by author 2010-09-02 15:32:32.
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09/02/2010 03:35:39 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
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more importantly, will someone help that poor little swiss fellow up into the pot already? |
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09/02/2010 04:29:51 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by FourPointX:
Originally posted by vawendy:
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more importantly, will someone help that poor little swiss fellow up into the pot already? |
He's Norwegian, so he can handle anything!
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09/02/2010 05:03:32 PM · #30 |
| On my Nikon I have a seperate EV compensation for the flash. You can definately see the background getting darker as you dial it up. I also have different ways I can set the flash metering. Or I can change the power on the flash by giving it an ev compensation. Then there are the settings on the flash unit- it may be reading the distance and deciding on what exposure it needs for the picture independent from what the camera is thinking. I am still trying to learn all of this as well so check your manuals on the flash and camera. Reading McNally, he uses TTL metering for the flash so it is not doing its own thing. Then he also uses rear curtain sycn to let the camera more balance the background light. You probably read all that already. |
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09/02/2010 05:09:52 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by JeffryZ:
On my Nikon I have a seperate EV compensation for the flash. You can definately see the background getting darker as you dial it up. I also have different ways I can set the flash metering. Or I can change the power on the flash by giving it an ev compensation. Then there are the settings on the flash unit- it may be reading the distance and deciding on what exposure it needs for the picture independent from what the camera is thinking. I am still trying to learn all of this as well so check your manuals on the flash and camera. Reading McNally, he uses TTL metering for the flash so it is not doing its own thing. Then he also uses rear curtain sycn to let the camera more balance the background light. You probably read all that already. |
Yes, I have the separate compensation also. The book was just claiming that when you adjust the camera to a -x.xEV, that you'll have to adjust the flash to some sort of +x.xEV. But when I was changing the exposure compensation on the camera, the remote flash amount didn't seem to change at all, even though it's ttl. That's why I'm confused...
Message edited by author 2010-09-02 17:10:37.
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09/02/2010 05:33:52 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Shouldn't the lighting from the flash decrease as well? Why is the flash intensity staying the same?
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No EC is for ambient metering only, that's why you have the separate FEC control.
This is going to throw you for a loop, but this stuff is a lot easier to learn if you turn off everything that's Auto and start working with everything in manual mode, including the flash power output. Your pics will likely suck at first, but you'll learn why things like FEC and EC work.
Remember in flash photography that flash exposure is controlled by your aperture setting and ambient exposure is controlled by your shutter speed setting.
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09/02/2010 05:52:22 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Shouldn't the lighting from the flash decrease as well? Why is the flash intensity staying the same?
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No EC is for ambient metering only, that's why you have the separate FEC control.
This is going to throw you for a loop, but this stuff is a lot easier to learn if you turn off everything that's Auto and start working with everything in manual mode, including the flash power output. Your pics will likely suck at first, but you'll learn why things like FEC and EC work.
Remember in flash photography that flash exposure is controlled by your aperture setting and ambient exposure is controlled by your shutter speed setting. |
but... but... but... one of the first things he says is: "the camera EV is an exposure-wide adjustment. A global input, if you will. If you program underexposure into the scene, then you're programming underexposure into the flash, as well."
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09/02/2010 05:59:39 PM · #34 |
| I may be wrong here but I don't think ttl works when using the 7D wireless trigger. I think you have to have the 580 on camera or at least attached. Don't take my word though I may be wrong. I do everything manual so I'm not real sure. |
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09/02/2010 06:03:53 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by jminso:
I may be wrong here but I don't think ttl works when using the 7D wireless trigger. I think you have to have the 580 on camera or at least attached. Don't take my word though I may be wrong. I do everything manual so I'm not real sure. |
That would be pretty silly -- why bother having it, then?
But that's a good point, and I'll experiment with it tonight. I have a 430EX that I can use remotely and put the 580EX on the camera. I was really hoping that I could use the 7D as a trigger and thus, have two remote flashes, so I didn't even have to use any straight on lighting. But, then again, I know nothing about lighting, yet, so maybe I'll want straight on lighting some time. :)
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09/02/2010 06:22:37 PM · #36 |
| Vawendy, I don't know ANYTHING about canon's lighting system, but know that, at least with nikon, you can turn down the power of the on camera flash when using it with their wireless cls system- it can be turned down so far that it really makes almost no difference in the actual exposure, just triggers the flashes. Might be worth looking into for cannon |
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09/02/2010 07:22:34 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
but... but... but... one of the first things he says is: "the camera EV is an exposure-wide adjustment. A global input, if you will. If you program underexposure into the scene, then you're programming underexposure into the flash, as well." |
If he said that, then you have obviously proven him wrong. Might want to write a letter to the publisher.
I'm a manual shooter, so usually don't shoot with things such as EC and FEC, so I may be wrong... but I'm sure his statement is misleading at best. EC only changes the metering of ambient light. Flash Exposure is metered differently, by a different in-camera sensor.
Let me explain further:
Let's say with EC at zero compensation your in-camera meter picks an aperture value of f/5.6 for a given shot. Now you change the EC to -1 stop. The camera chooses at aperture value of f/8. Let's say shutter speed is 1/200 on both.
Now with the flash in TTL mode, it doesn't care what the EC is set at. The flash is going to fire at the appropriate power to get proper exposure for any given aperture. If the aperture is at f/8 it will boost output a bit, if it's at f/5.6 it'll drop power output. At f/5.6 or f/8 or any other number, a TTL flash will adjust output for proper flash exposure. The EC, therefore is only affects how your camera meters ambient light.
The FEC control tells the flash to increase/decrease power relative to what the TTL sensor sees as proper exposure.
Message edited by author 2010-09-02 19:32:40.
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09/02/2010 09:10:12 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by vawendy:
but... but... but... one of the first things he says is: "the camera EV is an exposure-wide adjustment. A global input, if you will. If you program underexposure into the scene, then you're programming underexposure into the flash, as well." |
If he said that, then you have obviously proven him wrong. Might want to write a letter to the publisher.
I'm a manual shooter, so usually don't shoot with things such as EC and FEC, so I may be wrong... but I'm sure his statement is misleading at best. EC only changes the metering of ambient light. Flash Exposure is metered differently, by a different in-camera sensor.
Let me explain further:
Let's say with EC at zero compensation your in-camera meter picks an aperture value of f/5.6 for a given shot. Now you change the EC to -1 stop. The camera chooses at aperture value of f/8. Let's say shutter speed is 1/200 on both.
Now with the flash in TTL mode, it doesn't care what the EC is set at. The flash is going to fire at the appropriate power to get proper exposure for any given aperture. If the aperture is at f/8 it will boost output a bit, if it's at f/5.6 it'll drop power output. At f/5.6 or f/8 or any other number, a TTL flash will adjust output for proper flash exposure. The EC, therefore is only affects how your camera meters ambient light.
The FEC control tells the flash to increase/decrease power relative to what the TTL sensor sees as proper exposure. |
That's completely different from what the author was saying. He was saying that changing the compensation on the camera meant that you probably had to change the adjustment on the flash in the opposite direction. Not a 1:1 change, but a change nonetheless.
I obviously will have to do a lot of experimentation to get this all figured out.
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09/02/2010 09:47:56 PM · #39 |
All this EC is confusing!! I am like Leroy in that I shoot manually exclusively. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.
always build your scene. By this I mean
Step 1. Set your camera to expose for ambient light.
Step 2. Bring in your flash and set it manually so that it exposes your subject to the f-stop on your camera.(this is where a light meter is handy for saving time)
Step 3. Chimp! And adjust if necessary.
Easy!
Of course it can get more involved with moving subjects but for the purposes of still life and still models this'll do.
Message edited by author 2010-09-02 21:50:37. |
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09/02/2010 09:56:56 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by LVicari:
All this EC is confusing!! I am like Leroy in that I shoot manually exclusively. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.
always build your scene. By this I mean
Step 1. Set your camera to expose for ambient light.
Step 2. Bring in your flash and set it manually so that it exposes your subject to the f-stop on your camera.(this is where a light meter is handy for saving time)
Step 3. Chimp! And adjust if necessary.
Easy!
Of course it can get more involved with moving subjects but for the purposes of still life and still models this'll do. |
Ok. Easy is good. I'm afraid I don't understand the setting the flash so that it exposes your subject to the f-stop on the camera. Isn't this what the ttl is supposed to do? If not, and I don't have a light meter, is there anyway to figure out that number?
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09/02/2010 10:03:48 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by LVicari:
All this EC is confusing!! I am like Leroy in that I shoot manually exclusively. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.
always build your scene. By this I mean
Step 1. Set your camera to expose for ambient light.
Step 2. Bring in your flash and set it manually so that it exposes your subject to the f-stop on your camera.(this is where a light meter is handy for saving time)
Step 3. Chimp! And adjust if necessary.
Easy!
Of course it can get more involved with moving subjects but for the purposes of still life and still models this'll do. |
Ok. Easy is good. I'm afraid I don't understand the setting the flash so that it exposes your subject to the f-stop on the camera. Isn't this what the ttl is supposed to do? If not, and I don't have a light meter, is there anyway to figure out that number? |
ttl and what you want could be 2 different things. Your camera gets fooled sometimes and thus making you feel foolish. If you don't have a light meter set your flash to a setting of let's say 1/4 power. Take a shot and chimp. If it is overexposed dial your flash down to 1/8 or vise versatile if it is underexposed. Keep going till you get the desired effect.
Also you can simply move your flash further or closer to your subject til you get the desired effect.
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09/02/2010 10:05:08 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by LVicari:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by LVicari:
All this EC is confusing!! I am like Leroy in that I shoot manually exclusively. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.
always build your scene. By this I mean
Step 1. Set your camera to expose for ambient light.
Step 2. Bring in your flash and set it manually so that it exposes your subject to the f-stop on your camera.(this is where a light meter is handy for saving time)
Step 3. Chimp! And adjust if necessary.
Easy!
Of course it can get more involved with moving subjects but for the purposes of still life and still models this'll do. |
Ok. Easy is good. I'm afraid I don't understand the setting the flash so that it exposes your subject to the f-stop on the camera. Isn't this what the ttl is supposed to do? If not, and I don't have a light meter, is there anyway to figure out that number? |
ttl and what you want could be 2 different things. Your camera gets fooled sometimes and thus making you feel foolish. If you don't have a light meter set your flash to a setting of let's say 1/4 power. Take a shot and chimp. If it is overexposed dial your flash down to 1/8 or vise versatile if it is underexposed. Keep going till you get the desired effect.
Also you can simply move your flash further or closer to your subject til you get the desired effect. |
Do you ever use your flash at full power? Or is that only when it's your main light source?
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09/02/2010 10:08:53 PM · #43 |
Yes sometimes. It all depends on the effect I want.
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09/02/2010 10:21:21 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by LVicari:
Yes sometimes. It all depends on the effect I want. |
Do you usually shoot with a diffuser of some sort? Or does dialing it down to 1/4 power negate the need for one?
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09/02/2010 10:41:21 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
I obviously will have to do a lot of experimentation to get this all figured out. |
I wish I could explain it better.
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09/02/2010 11:09:44 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by vawendy:
I obviously will have to do a lot of experimentation to get this all figured out. |
I wish I could explain it better. |
I understand what you're saying -- it's just the opposite of what I'm reading, so that's why I'm confused. That's why I figured that, with the information from both sides, I should be able to experiment and figure out what's going on. (I hope :)
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09/03/2010 12:29:05 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by vawendy:
I obviously will have to do a lot of experimentation to get this all figured out. |
I wish I could explain it better. |
I understand what you're saying -- it's just the opposite of what I'm reading, so that's why I'm confused. That's why I figured that, with the information from both sides, I should be able to experiment and figure out what's going on. (I hope :) |
Don't try to read the Hot Shoe Diaries as an instruction manual. It's not designed for that and will only confuse you. It's more useful when you already have an understanding of how flash works.
You really should turn off eTTL and get the basics down using manual everything so you can understand and control your variables, rather than relying on the camera and flash to make decisions that you don't understand.
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09/03/2010 01:50:03 AM · #48 |
The whole exposure comp versus flash comp thing:
Exposure comp IS a global adjustment. Your lighting system in TTL will provide enough light to create an ideal exposure (or what it thinks as an ideal exposure). Dial down the exposure compensation and it reduces the output of the flash.
Put your camera in manual and try a shot. Then shoot again with the same on-camera settings (aperture, ISO, shutter speed) but reduce the exposure compensation. You'll get a different result. (I think McNally actually suggests he did something like that by accident in one of his stories.) When I heard that initially I was like "No way, exposure compensation wouldn't be available in manual. That's just silly". On my D90 it is there. So why not just adjust the output of the flash then? Well if I have three groups of flashes going through my lighting system and I want them ALL to compensate by -1 EV for example. In such a case I can then tweak individual groups. I think also you can be on manual but if you have auto ISO enabled the camera will adjust it anyways. Its funny how much automatic stuff the camera still does when you are in manual...
Message edited by author 2010-09-03 01:53:43. |
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09/03/2010 06:25:35 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by LVicari:
Yes sometimes. It all depends on the effect I want. |
Do you usually shoot with a diffuser of some sort? Or does dialing it down to 1/4 power negate the need for one? |
Dialing your flash up or down only makes the flash output more or less, it doesn't make it softer. A diffuser makes it softer or gives a different look to your light. So many diffusers.. each will result in different light.
I can't remember who posted it, but in one of these lighting threads someone posted shots of a model using softbox, reflected umbrella, shoot thru, etc.
If I find it I will post.
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09/03/2010 07:07:07 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by LVicari:
I can't remember who posted it, but in one of these lighting threads someone posted shots of a model using softbox, reflected umbrella, shoot thru, etc.
If I find it I will post. |
That would be in the strobist lighting thread here. That is an excellent thread to follow for tips and setups. I personally use both diffused and hard light depending on the look I want. I may try and post examples later but I oftenn use a 28" softbox with a bare "hair" light but will at times use both flashes bare or use one bare and one with a dome diffuser. There are so many options and it all depends on the look you want. |
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