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08/28/2010 03:28:37 AM · #51
Originally posted by coryboehne:

Art is watching Groundhog Day, I know it...

I'm multitasking.

Originally posted by paulbtlw:

Just once, we do an experiment.

Let me stop you right there - this site discourages experimentation. Probably because it leads to unspeakable things.
08/28/2010 03:38:40 AM · #52
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by coryboehne:

Art is watching Groundhog Day, I know it...

I'm multitasking.

Originally posted by paulbtlw:

Just once, we do an experiment.

Let me stop you right there - this site discourages experimentation. Probably because it leads to unspeakable things.


Exactly my point. It is because we are unable to speak about them. More speakage please! ;-)
08/28/2010 06:09:06 AM · #53
Originally posted by jotaga:

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I really do understand Don's irritation, especially on the set-up shots. If you are recreating someone's shot, why copy it exactly? Why not change it up a bit. However, I agree with a previous poster: this is just another reason for people to get pissy about the challenges.

I'm tired of all of the wedding rings on the books photos. However -- every shot here is different. They were exploring different angles, different DOFs, different lighting, etc. Already something was singled out that wasn't fair, IMO. There is nothing wrong with trying to improve upon a shot -- no matter how many times it's been done! And while I'd be very excited if sunsets were banned (we don't get very many good ones here... :), 99% of the nature photography would be called out. You don't get to pick and choose how to arrange nature, just how to crop it.

Regarding people trying things on their own, but not for a challenge: it's not nearly as likely without the incentive of a challenge. There are so many things that I have tried since joining this site, but only because it was for a challenge! I have no interest in doing smoke shots, still lifes, or any kind of set up shot. That's not the photography I enjoy. However, because I'm a competitive person, it's fun to try it anyway and see what I can do. I've learned a lot by doing this, and it has helped me immensely in the type of photography I enjoy doing. After I leave DPC, I'll probably never do those types of shots again. But I'm going to get all that I can out of this site while I'm here. And since I've never done these things before, I am definitely going to go searching through existing photos for ideas.

Btw, I have certainly entered challenges without search existing photos, only to find out that my incredibly clever, unique idea had already been done! You are going to end up penalizing all the new people that join and don't bother searching through 8 or so years of history to find out if something has been done before. Good way to add and encourage new people!

This thread is disappointing. I don't think people need more excuses for being narrow-minded when view/voting on the challenges. Your wanting to call out duplicates can only be to punish them. I don't think wine glasses should be voted down simply because they've been done over and over again. If it's a good photo, it's a good photo. Photos should be judged on their merit. And yes, I give extra points for originality, but I'm not going to punish someone with a lower vote on a perfectly good photo just because I'm tired of it.

Message edited by author 2010-08-28 06:13:05.
08/28/2010 06:26:10 AM · #54
'If you see something you've seen before, don' t click the shutter' (Advice from the photographer Alexey Brodovitch to a young Diane Arbus)

Easier said than done of course. I can understand Don's points in this thread. Creativity is far further up my list than technical skills when it comes to what i look for in an image but i do see the learning value in emulation. Not sure if the suggestion of images being called out is practical in any way though. Far too much grey area.

08/28/2010 06:47:42 AM · #55
Very interesting discussions here. My own response is that I learn best from doing things, be it trying out for myself, or imitating people.
In my recent oxymoron image
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I kinda copied some ideas (composition wise, sprinkling water around the subject) that I saw around here a lot. In my long exposure entry
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I was also tring to imitate something I saw, but with this I failed utterly and ended up doing something entirely different.
The threshold of where to call a copy plagiarism is difficult to define, I'd imagine.

You've also got to realise that there are entire industries based on plagiarism. If you think you can realise better potential with your shot than someone else has achieved with theirs I think you should go right ahead and exploit it.
08/28/2010 07:41:01 AM · #56
Originally posted by vawendy:

Btw, I have certainly entered challenges without search existing photos, only to find out that my incredibly clever, unique idea had already been done!

Why should you have to do that, anyway? After all, researching to see what other things have been done narrows your range of available possibilities. And there's nothing wrong with a well-rendered iteration of a previous idea. If the voters have seen it before, and they don't like it, it'll be apparent in the scoring.
Originally posted by vawendy:

You are going to end up penalizing all the new people that join and don't bother searching through 8 or so years of history to find out if something has been done before. Good way to add and encourage new people!

You have to take into account that perhaps people new to photography in general, and this site in particular, are entitled to learn how the place works on their own. Though we don't necessarily have a stated responsibility to help and encourage newcomers, that's the only way that we build, and renew the community. The negative aspects of this "Police Action" don't seem to fit that concept.
Originally posted by vawendy:

This thread is disappointing. I don't think people need more excuses for being narrow-minded when view/voting on the challenges. Your wanting to call out duplicates can only be to punish them. I don't think wine glasses should be voted down simply because they've been done over and over again. If it's a good photo, it's a good photo. Photos should be judged on their merit. And yes, I give extra points for originality, but I'm not going to punish someone with a lower vote on a perfectly good photo just because I'm tired of it.

More often than not, if I see an image that I feel has been done too much, or just doesn't do anything for me, I'll take a pass on voting rather than score it down because of my own personal taste on the image. Newcomers have never seen them before.......allow them the chance to be wowed that first time they see a water drop image.

In the long run, people as they improve, will develop their own style and techniques for rendering images that make them their own. No need to beat 'em up in the learning phase.......8~)
08/28/2010 07:52:52 AM · #57
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by vawendy:

Btw, I have certainly entered challenges without search existing photos, only to find out that my incredibly clever, unique idea had already been done!

Why should you have to do that, anyway? After all, researching to see what other things have been done narrows your range of available possibilities. And there's nothing wrong with a well-rendered iteration of a previous idea. If the voters have seen it before, and they don't like it, it'll be apparent in the scoring.
Originally posted by vawendy:

You are going to end up penalizing all the new people that join and don't bother searching through 8 or so years of history to find out if something has been done before. Good way to add and encourage new people!

You have to take into account that perhaps people new to photography in general, and this site in particular, are entitled to learn how the place works on their own. Though we don't necessarily have a stated responsibility to help and encourage newcomers, that's the only way that we build, and renew the community. The negative aspects of this "Police Action" don't seem to fit that concept.
Originally posted by vawendy:

This thread is disappointing. I don't think people need more excuses for being narrow-minded when view/voting on the challenges. Your wanting to call out duplicates can only be to punish them. I don't think wine glasses should be voted down simply because they've been done over and over again. If it's a good photo, it's a good photo. Photos should be judged on their merit. And yes, I give extra points for originality, but I'm not going to punish someone with a lower vote on a perfectly good photo just because I'm tired of it.

More often than not, if I see an image that I feel has been done too much, or just doesn't do anything for me, I'll take a pass on voting rather than score it down because of my own personal taste on the image. Newcomers have never seen them before.......allow them the chance to be wowed that first time they see a water drop image.

In the long run, people as they improve, will develop their own style and techniques for rendering images that make them their own. No need to beat 'em up in the learning phase.......8~)


I'm a little confused -- I think you've misconstrued what I've said. I thought I had already made those points. Yes, you shouldn't have to search. Yes, we want to encourage vs. discourage new users. Yes, no need to beat them up in the process. Here's the full original post:

I really do understand Don's irritation, especially on the set-up shots. If you are recreating someone's shot, why copy it exactly? Why not change it up a bit. However, I agree with a previous poster: this is just another reason for people to get pissy about the challenges.

I'm tired of all of the wedding rings on the books photos. However -- every shot here is different. They were exploring different angles, different DOFs, different lighting, etc. Already something was singled out that wasn't fair, IMO. There is nothing wrong with trying to improve upon a shot -- no matter how many times it's been done! And while I'd be very excited if sunsets were banned (we don't get very many good ones here... :), 99% of the nature photography would be called out. You don't get to pick and choose how to arrange nature, just how to crop it.

Regarding people trying things on their own, but not for a challenge: it's not nearly as likely without the incentive of a challenge. There are so many things that I have tried since joining this site, but only because it was for a challenge! I have no interest in doing smoke shots, still lifes, or any kind of set up shot. That's not the photography I enjoy. However, because I'm a competitive person, it's fun to try it anyway and see what I can do. I've learned a lot by doing this, and it has helped me immensely in the type of photography I enjoy doing. After I leave DPC, I'll probably never do those types of shots again. But I'm going to get all that I can out of this site while I'm here. And since I've never done these things before, I am definitely going to go searching through existing photos for ideas.

Btw, I have certainly entered challenges without search existing photos, only to find out that my incredibly clever, unique idea had already been done! You are going to end up penalizing all the new people that join and don't bother searching through 8 or so years of history to find out if something has been done before. Good way to add and encourage new people!

This thread is disappointing. I don't think people need more excuses for being narrow-minded when view/voting on the challenges. Your wanting to call out duplicates can only be to punish them. I don't think wine glasses should be voted down simply because they've been done over and over again. If it's a good photo, it's a good photo. Photos should be judged on their merit. And yes, I give extra points for originality, but I'm not going to punish someone with a lower vote on a perfectly good photo just because I'm tired of it.


I'm sorry if my post wasn't clear -- so I'll make it clearer.

Calling out duplicates is a stupid idea.

I hope that clarifies my position.

Message edited by author 2010-08-28 07:53:15.
08/28/2010 08:05:40 AM · #58
Originally posted by vawendy:

I'm sorry if my post wasn't clear -- so I'll make it clearer.

Calling out duplicates is a stupid idea.

I hope that clarifies my position.

I was agreeing with you......

G'mornin' Wendy!......8~)
08/28/2010 08:50:42 AM · #59
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It's a conspiracy, I tell you...how dare those nasty ol' cardinals be the most vividly-coloured birds hanging around in wintertime, perched on barren twigs! ;-)
08/28/2010 08:51:02 AM · #60
I agree w/' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' vawendy that calling out duplicates is a stupid idea. And I agree w/' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' NikonJeb that the whole idea of photography in the first place is capturing something that already is--photography is already a copy of something else. It's actually impossible to exactly duplicate a shot of your own, much less to exactly duplicate someone else's. If you base your photography on your subject alone, you'll always be a beginner. This site's challenges are based on the subject alone & in that way this site is for beginners. Beginners' learning is not fostered in an atmosphere of suspicion & punishment (DQ). If I want to capture a neat-o shot of a water drop splash, or a ring on a book, why shouldn't I? It's a great exercise in lighting, if nothing else.

Part of the learning experience is developing your own morals & ethics of photography. Part of achieving your own morals & ethics ought to be (but, alas, isn't always) achieving the grace to refrain from trying to foist your own morals & ethics on others. In other words, if you can tell me how to set up the light for a water drop splash show, I'll pay attention. But if you're going to try to tell me what to think, I'm going to resist. And if that doesn't work, I'll just quit paying attention to you.
08/28/2010 08:58:11 AM · #61
Nobody here that I know of has taken the water drop splash or the ring in the book shot past the learning stage. What I see is people that have learned how to do a good sharp shot of those subjects, & then lost interest. It is repetitive for the audience. Your first couple of thousand shots is enough to learn, but what happens if you decide to OWN that subject? How far can you take a set-up shot in a direction that nobody has ever taken it?
08/28/2010 09:06:10 AM · #62
.... and in fact none of the ring heart pictures is a blatant copy of any of the others - that doesn't mean they're very original - but they aren't copies and each has a subtle quality which is uniquely it's own

.... and they look okay as a gallery of similar images - much better than any one of them individually

.... i do wish individuality scored higher round here but with the posthumous ribbons thread (where i don't feature either) and various others original and different pictures do get a look in

.... part of the problem here is that the images which do well are ones where we can all see the point of the image, often technical excellence or formal quality - these images do well because they can be appreciated in much the same way by anyone - the unusual images are often ones which depend for their success on eliciting strong emotional responses from the viewer - and it is almost inevitable that these responses will be far less uniform among voters than their reaction to technically excellent wine glass shots.
08/28/2010 09:12:54 AM · #63
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by vawendy:

I'm sorry if my post wasn't clear -- so I'll make it clearer.

Calling out duplicates is a stupid idea.

I hope that clarifies my position.

I was agreeing with you......

G'mornin' Wendy!......8~)


mornin' Jeb! :o)
08/28/2010 09:23:17 AM · #64
... forget it. This one's too personal for me so I should just keep my mouth shut.

Message edited by author 2010-08-28 09:34:00.
08/28/2010 09:25:49 AM · #65
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Originally posted by vawendy:

My portrait of a cardinal probably looks exactly like another portrait of a cardinal.

Certainly one of those gray areas.


That would be more like a red area.
08/28/2010 09:38:43 AM · #66
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Originally posted by vawendy:

My portrait of a cardinal probably looks exactly like another portrait of a cardinal.

Certainly one of those gray areas.


That would be more like a red area.
=> :-)

08/28/2010 09:38:46 AM · #67
would be nice to see my shots copied
once in a while :}

Message edited by author 2010-08-28 09:40:09.
08/28/2010 09:50:12 AM · #68
Originally posted by coryboehne:


Art is watching Groundhog Day, I know it...


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Someone say Groundhog Day???

(As to the OP -- it does get tiresome to me to see the "same image" on the front page time and time again. However, I'm not sure "self-policing would work -- anywhere on the Internet. The "anonymity" makes people feel like they can be disrespectful and nasty.)
08/28/2010 09:56:09 AM · #69
Don, once again you've made having fun on this site a very complicated thing. Like Art mentioned, take a break dude, your stress is showing. Have you taken a vacation lately, maybe it's time you did.

Maybe we should have a challenge that tries to replicate Don's work. Would that alleviate your stress Don? Is that why you're angry Don, nobody copies your stuff Don?

Lame ass thread.

Ignored!
08/28/2010 10:11:00 AM · #70
Could someone give me an example of a subject that is an individual photographer's Intellectual Property? The photograph itself is your property & should not be taken or used without your permission. But the subject your camera was pointed at--how is that intellectual property?
08/28/2010 10:21:02 AM · #71
Originally posted by pixelpig:

Could someone give me an example of a subject that is an individual photographer's Intellectual Property? The photograph itself is your property & should not be taken or used without your permission. But the subject your camera was pointed at--how is that intellectual property?


//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=894256

IP can not be claimed on a bird, a mountain, an ocean, etc. It has to do with the thought and concept of what you're shooting. Someone shot something very similar to this image. The mask parts weren't set up the same but it was the same 4 elements in the frame and it was pretty close to my original comp. We settled out of court and the photographer has removed it from their portfolio never to be used again. :D

They are very, very tough cases to fight and cost a fortune.
08/28/2010 10:23:32 AM · #72
This change requires no coding, just a rule change. Allow for people on the forums to call out a blatant copy of a forum post. I have no problem with allowing this sort of plagiarism for the sake of learning technique, but posters should be aware of it.

No coding change, no extra work for SC. Allow DPC to police itself. All people have to do is post the posts that are being ripped off. Come to think of it, maybe we're allowed to do that anyway. Food for thought.

08/28/2010 10:59:03 AM · #73
Originally posted by vawendy:

I'm tired of all of the wedding rings on the books photos. However -- every shot here is different.

Yep. And not a single idea among them.
08/28/2010 11:06:12 AM · #74
Originally posted by Davenit:

Originally posted by pixelpig:

Could someone give me an example of a subject that is an individual photographer's Intellectual Property? The photograph itself is your property & should not be taken or used without your permission. But the subject your camera was pointed at--how is that intellectual property?


//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=894256

IP can not be claimed on a bird, a mountain, an ocean, etc. It has to do with the thought and concept of what you're shooting. Someone shot something very similar to this image. The mask parts weren't set up the same but it was the same 4 elements in the frame and it was pretty close to my original comp. We settled out of court and the photographer has removed it from their portfolio never to be used again. :D

They are very, very tough cases to fight and cost a fortune.


I would've settled out of court, too. Just out of curiosity, does that mean you have intellectual property rights to defend for all shots of that mask that are very similar? Isn't that mask available in retail party supply stores? Are you defending the association of that mask with cancer?

If I plan to do a set-up shot how do I check the world of photography to find out if it's been done before?
08/28/2010 11:20:01 AM · #75
Originally posted by pixelpig:



I would've settled out of court, too. Just out of curiosity, does that mean you have intellectual property rights to defend for all shots of that mask that are very similar? Isn't that mask available in retail party supply stores? Are you defending the association of that mask with cancer?

If I plan to do a set-up shot how do I check the world of photography to find out if it's been done before?


No, I don't have IP on the mask but what I do have IP on is the concept and setup to that shot. Now if someone would have taken one mask and put a red marble in it's mouth and called it Cancer I probably wouldn't have a leg to stand on but the copy was close enough to mine (again 1 full mask, 1 mask cut in half and a marble) that it was obvious the person saw my image and recreated it.

As to your last question I can't answer it. I know my genre of shooting pretty well but I'm sure in my gallery somewhere is probably a shot that crosses the IP line. Not on purpose mind you but the law of averages would suggest I do. If anyone get's in touch with me and says "hey, what the hell???" I talk it over with them, find copyright dates and if they prove they shot it before me (which did happen in one case) I remove it from my gallery. I had never sold a print of that particular image (I actually couldn't stand it) but if I had he would have had a case for damages.

IP is a tough battle to fight and I'm by no means an authority. My lawyer is though thank god. I really need to read up on it more.

It's like the recent Satrianni VS. Coldplay case. Everyone uses the same chords in rock n roll to write songs. Just because you use G, C, D in a song doesn't mean it's an IP infraction but if you use the same chords, the same melody and same structure chances are you're gonna get nailed. It has to be a pretty close rip to prove it.

Hope that helps a bit.

Oh and I should add. I always go through lengthy steps between finding an image like mine and taking it to court. Most cases get straightened out between photographers. Like the example above on the image I deleted. I've probably had 15 cases where the photographer said "holy crap man, I had no idea and I didn't mean to. I'll remove it". In that case I just let sleeping dogs lie even if they've sold copies. It's the ones who tell me to go F myself that I pick up the phone and start action.

And if you're shooting for DPC or don't plan on selling images then you don't really run a risk of being sued. It costs a lot to fight these battles. I can only go after money you've made on that picture. If there's no money it's not worth it. So if your conscience can let you go down the 'copy' path then have at it. If it's an honest "I never saw that before" thing and the photographer get's pisses just remove it. I've had stuff ripped here and I've never done a thing about it. But if they start selling prints of it I might have an issue.

Message edited by author 2010-08-28 11:28:21.
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