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06/22/2004 11:18:59 AM · #101 |
Gordon you are the same kind of smartass as the guy who started this thread.
Nothing personal just my opinion!
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06/22/2004 11:20:14 AM · #102 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
So don't be so hard in Glacierwolf. He is trying to be helpful (engineers want to fix things), just has a more direct and candid manner than most! |
Ah - that could also be why I didn't see anything very rude in the original post. It seemed sugar coated, compared to the typical discussions I have at work...
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06/22/2004 11:22:57 AM · #103 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by jab119:
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Nazgul:
Comments like "what where you thinking" dont have any meaning what so ever to peoples photography! |
How is that comment any different from "nice shot", other than that the latter is a pat on the back that people have no problem with? That is basically my point. They only want "feel good" comments. |
This was the comment that was left on my desat photo
"A boring picture in color doesn't get better when you take some color away. What were you thinking??" |
So lets take this example, as you've brought it out in to the open.
You obviously don't have to reveal what your shot is, but:
What were you thinking ? What was your motivation for desaturating that particular subject ? Was it that you took the particular shot because you felt it would really benefit from selective desaturation ? Or did you have to take a shot for the challenge, and then desaturate it ? Is it a subject that you feel is especially well suited to selective desaturation ?
'What were you thinking ?' is just a question. I guess if you can't answer it or feel that what you were thinking should be blindingly obvious to everyone else in the world it might possibly be considered an insult - but I don't quite get this huge indignation in this thread from a lot of people about being asked why they did something. Surely, if your picture is good enough, it is easily defendable ? and if it isn't - well - what where you thinking ? |
What was I thinking???
Several days BEFORE i set out to take a photo for the challenge, I knew the location, the time, and I had a general idea what my subject might be, which SPECIFIC subject it would be I had no Idea.
Once on location I had LOTS of idea's for the desat challenge. I shot over 350 pics that day, about 125 were SPECIFICALLY for challenge.
I took many things into account each time I clicked the shutter to take the image, what color I wanted to leave, the view and so on. Then when I got home I edited many photos before I selected the one I liked the best.
Does that answer your question?
James
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06/22/2004 11:24:37 AM · #104 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
The original post starts by establishing some credentials, explaining that he is new to the technique then describing the various steps he went through to learn it - including posting a tutorial to the site on how to do the technique du jour. |
You are right, but the comments he is leaving on photos are not particularly tactful. He is leaving the type of comments that normally make me chalk him up as someone I can ignore in the future...
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06/22/2004 11:26:09 AM · #105 |
The unfortunate reality is that while GW may have some worthwhile things to tell us about self-editing, his message has been completely lost and drowned out by his tone and wording choices, which have obviously alienated the vast majority of readers of this thread.
Remember: no one ever said 'you can catch more flies with vinegar .. '
If your hope was to convey something useful, you failed.
If your desire was to turn most people against you, you succeeded admirably :).
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06/22/2004 11:26:21 AM · #106 |
Originally posted by jab119:
I took many things into account each time I clicked the shutter to take the image, what color I wanted to leave, the view and so on. Then when I got home I edited many photos before I selected the one I liked the best.
Does that answer your question?
James |
The question is more valuable for the person who took the shot really. But mostly it does.
You didn't really mention anything about trying to take an interesting or captivating picture though - you talk about what colours you wanted to desaturate and taking a subject that suited the challenge.
Is it a picture you'd want to hang on your wall and look at ?
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06/22/2004 11:28:34 AM · #107 |
To me there are three types of comments--
There are the sugar coated, pat on the back types that are not to constructive but can help build a beginner's confidence. Easy to write and almost never complained about. I try to refrain from the vacuous praise but sometimes really like a shot and can't suggest anything to improve it.
There are the "hard" or "direct" comments that are usually honest but have much better chance of actually being helpful to the photog if carefully worded and if they contain some praise of the photos strong points as well as suggestions to improve it's weaknesses. I am sorry that some people find it so hard to do this type. I try but think mine are often to brief becasue I am not more knowledgable technincally.
There are the "rude" and "condescending" type that usually lose any possiblity of being helpfull by the turn-off tone. If you make one of these type of comments you are probably doing it more for yourself than for the photographer. Best to just pass.
I am sorry to hear that some people find it difficult to make comments in the middle zone. As with so many things, quality in your comments is more desirable than quantity. And brief is ok if it's to the point.
If Glacierwolf was trying to kick up a controversy just to get a big reaction he surely has succeeded. Maybe his dog got by with a few less bootprints today. |
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06/22/2004 11:29:02 AM · #108 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
At the risk of being 'typecast', I find that I agree with Glacierwolf in many respects.
Most of the entries in "Desaturated" are abysmal. I didn't enter this one because I could not produce a photo worth entering!
People with technical (engineering) backgrounds generally have poor artistic skills, myself included. There are notable exceptions, witness Labuda.
I can relate to Glacierwolf's comments though I think they are harshly worded and do not properly reflect his sentiment to be helpful.
My approach to photography tends to be unartful but I am trying to learn. Like many others with a technical background, those things that made us good engineers also make us less artistic and a lot less tactful!
That is not to say we can't recognize good work! I have no quarrel whatsoever with the selections that take top honors on DPC, they are excellent. Just wish I had that kind of talent!
So don't be so hard in Glacierwolf. He is trying to be helpful (engineers want to fix things), just has a more direct and candid manner than most! |
While what you say may be true, Glacierwolf is not going to be heard if he can't speak in a way people will listen. On my Photot he says he can't see what was desatruated, however that was sort of the point. You needed to look at the picture and understand what was happening. he obviously did not understand, and did not take the time to try to figure it out. -- I try to create work that "fools" the eye, while staying within the challenge -- examples below:
This is a toy train I tried to make look big... ( I think I succeeded a little)
this is a dull small fountain I tried to make look intimidating (I didn't do so well there)
This was one boy behind the other - I tried to make look like they were against a wall (I totally failed on this one - too sloppy)
But my point is I try to give the viewer something to think about - as I did in my current entry -- But I still got the comment
"What did you desaturate? We can't tell. What were you thinking??????"
What were they thinking? - Or did they?
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06/22/2004 11:33:26 AM · #109 |
If Glacierwolf was trying to kick up a controversy just to get a big reaction he surely has succeeded. Maybe his dog got by with a few less bootprints today.
Bethany
//www.sketchesbybethany.net
Message edited by author 2004-06-22 11:34:15. |
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06/22/2004 11:34:45 AM · #110 |
Here's the comment he left on my photo:
"Not enough color in the red part of the [edited out] to quickly tell this pic from a black and white picture!!! Extremely poor choice of picture to use for this challenge. What were you thinking??????"
What this comment tells me:
1. The viewer wants to be beat over the head with the challenge topic. His first statement is correct. My 'red' is not extreme and I designed the image that way by choice. It is subtle. I personally don't like desaturated images where one color is loud and obnoxious while everything else is mute. If the comment had been left at this first statement, I wouldn't have thought twice about it.
2. The viewer doesn't like my choice of subject and my technique for meeting the challenge.
3. The 'what were you thinking' segment of this comment is simply rude. The viewer has already made a clear point that he doesn't like the photo, which is fine. I never expect everyone to like my photos.
Mr. Glacier wolf appeared to be complaining in his opening statements here about getting hate mail for the comments he has left and he doesn't seem to understand why. If the comment he left on my photo is any indication of the comments he has left on others, he's gonna make a lot of friends here and he's gonna generate a following of people who take him seriously and look up to him for advice :)
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06/22/2004 11:36:36 AM · #111 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
So don't be so hard in Glacierwolf. He is trying to be helpful (engineers want to fix things), just has a more direct and candid manner than most! |
You know, my grand father was an engineer and I never seen him disrespect anyone. But boy did he ever love to fix things, especially when they didn't need fixing. LOL Back to my point. This is isn't the
armed forces and you are not gaurenteed respect because of your position, rank, or experience. I try to do my best to treat people with respect and in doing that I expect to be treated with respect. Having said that I think that most people approach respect the same way. Now when you say not to be so hard on him, I say why not! You show no respect, you get no respect! Do I agree with his opinions, maybe and maybe not, but he has given no reason to respect them! |
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06/22/2004 11:37:04 AM · #112 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
To me there are three types of comments--
There are the sugar coated, pat on the back types that are not to constructive but can help build a beginner's confidence. Easy to write and almost never complained about. I try to refrain from the vacuous praise but sometimes really like a shot and can't suggest anything to improve it.
There are the "hard" or "direct" comments that are usually honest but have much better chance of actually being helpful to the photog if carefully worded and if they contain some praise of the photos strong points as well as suggestions to improve it's weaknesses. I am sorry that some people find it so hard to do this type. I try but think mine are often to brief becasue I am not more knowledgable technincally.
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I find I've basically stopped providing comments - simply because giving them anonymously is impossible to do in any meaningful sense. I spend a lot of time commenting on photos at a club I attend and having long, interesting discussions about technique, composition and particular shots. The distinction is that I can phrase comments and discussion to suit the person they are being given to. Also, it is a dialog and not a single throw-away statement without feedback or discussion.
Here, I have no idea of the level of experience, technical photographic knowledge (or interest), technical computer related knowledge (or interest) and emotional outlook (prefering direct, blunt commentary or carefully worded support). As a result I personally find I can't make useful comments. I can provide pseudo helpful comments that superficially highlight an obvious failing (and note that many others comment on the same thing) or I can provide pseudo encouraging 'nice photo' or 'great shot' type comments.
But none of these go beyond the banal and superficial. I don't learn anything meaningful from writing comments that vague. The recipiant might get a nudge in a general direction, but again, really learns nothing useful. e.g. 'composition could be better' doesn't actually say anything much. But a useful discussion on compositional issues, cultural weights when viewing images, art history and visual literacy doesn't easily fit in a single comment box without any dialog.
The closest thing that comes to that here is the critique club, but again the most feedback I've ever had on a CC post has been 'thanks' or similar. jonpink and I once had an interesting debate about Pop art and Warhol (mostly about how he hated it) but that stands as probably the best discussion thread that has been stimulated by comments for me.
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06/22/2004 11:39:32 AM · #113 |
I logged on this morning to see my score dramatically reduced and a comment telling me that my submission was a badly taken picture. Fortunately, I've been around here long enough to know that a comment like that should be received, pondererd, then forgotten. If my photo had been badly taken, I wouldn't have submitted it. I chose to desaturate my way, putting my artistic sense in the mix. The unfortunate thing is that I see a lot of new members in the challenge who will be really put-off by the harsh opinion of one person. I say to those people, have fun with it, laugh at it. Never take a mean hearted critique seriously.
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06/22/2004 11:40:27 AM · #114 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Is it a picture you'd want to hang on your wall and look at ? |
With the exception of my first, hang on, let me double check...........my first 7 challenge entries (I was totally clueless on those) and my Tacky Holiday Decorations entry (I really didn't want it in my house, why would I want it on my wall?) and my New Year's Resolution picture (I see the real thing everyday) and my Textures Entry (it was boring, even I admit that) I would and do have all of my shots either printed out and up or am going to order them to put up or give as gifts. So out of 59 Challenge entries I would put 49 of them on my wall and/or give them as gifts. Plus the 26 I have in my Prints but not in Challenge folder. So out of 85 pictures I have put up for public viewing I would proudly show off/print/hang/give as gifts 75 of those.
I did not receive a comment from the original poster but he commented about my shot in the original post in his "points" about unoriginal shots. I am not offended by that but he does leave a lot to be desired in the manners and tactfullness area.
Deannda
Manners and tact are all we are asking for, see this Thread: Just a Reminder for Everyone! |
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06/22/2004 11:44:54 AM · #115 |
From the original link:
How to Receive Feedback:
1. Don't be thin-skinned.
The individual offering feedback is not attacking you personally, they're trying to help you create a better photograph. (This only applies to honest attempts at criticism. While you should still try to avoid being thin-skinned since you're putting your work out there for everyone to see, there are also going to be times when people simply say idiotic things in order to prove themselves morons. Know this and try to ignore it.)
2. Ask for clarification.
If you don't understand a point being made, or if it is too generic to offer any real help, ask for additional information or possible solutions to help you better understand what the person is trying to say.
4. Assume best intentions.
A comment from another may seem nitpicky to you, but if the other person points something out, they thought it was important enough to mention. Treat it as an important item, even if you decide to ignore it.
Now if we assume that in this case GW isn't actually doing this to be rude (and it seems pretty obvious that he is not - at least to me)
Then the points for getting feedback are mostly being ignored too... :)
Message edited by author 2004-06-22 11:45:33.
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06/22/2004 11:44:58 AM · #116 |
To Galcierwolf:
10 - Only one picture selected. (1 here)
9 - Only one picture selected. (12 here)
8 - Just eight. (3 here)
7 - Just 2 (28 here)
Your statement here bothers me:
If you don't have the time to do an entry correctly - just blow it off -and concentrate on another challenge some other day.
This challenge isn't about winning. It's about learning. Each challenge a member participates in, a new direction was explored and ultimately each member learns from. The way I see it, each time a challenge is posted, we open our minds and enhance our creative side. Each member can learn from the task and by looking at all the entries when the voting starts, can further expand their creativity. I don't know how many times I have seen a shot during the challenges that made me think and register that composition in my head as a better way to shoot something.
Just my opinion.
Oh and by the way. The comment you left on my shot:
"Too many colors and not enough background to desaturate."
Well I agree about the background part, but not the too many colors. There were only three colors (2 of which were were a gradient) and all were on one object.
Here was the challenge:
"Highlight one or more elements in your photograph by converting the surrounding areas to grayscale."
Message edited by author 2004-06-22 11:50:49.
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06/22/2004 11:45:48 AM · #117 |
Here's a comment he left for me:
"If a picture of * **** is boreing in color, what makes you think it looks better with most of the color missing?? I sure hope you do better in your other hobbies."
Now I really appreciate constructive criticism; however I thought his last remark was quite rude and unnecessary. |
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06/22/2004 11:47:06 AM · #118 |
The strangest thing I have found from reading this thread is the
assertion that apparently none of us can accept criticism..unless it`s sugar coated....want to take a look at some of the comments that have accompanied my challenge submissions ?
I think you`ll find plenty of candid, straight to the point comments that pulled no punches...some of which I disagreed with but none that I took offence at.
I would however, be very angry to receive some of the comments mentioned previously, not only are they devoid of helpfull information but they are obviously intended to annoy the recipient.
I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can defend this type of behaviour, especially by citing that complaining about it is putting people off commenting....what about the number of people who get put off submitting after receiving this type of abuse ? |
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06/22/2004 11:48:54 AM · #119 |
Originally posted by geewhy:
I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can defend this type of behaviour, especially by citing that complaining about it is putting people off commenting....what about the number of people who get put off submitting after receiving this type of abuse ? |
I know for a fact that these sorts of threads put people off commenting.
I don't have numbers for those that get put off submitting - but I'd assume you are probably right about that too.
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06/22/2004 11:49:31 AM · #120 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by jab119:
I took many things into account each time I clicked the shutter to take the image, what color I wanted to leave, the view and so on. Then when I got home I edited many photos before I selected the one I liked the best.
Does that answer your question?
James |
The question is more valuable for the person who took the shot really. But mostly it does.
You didn't really mention anything about trying to take an interesting or captivating picture though - you talk about what colours you wanted to desaturate and taking a subject that suited the challenge.
Is it a picture you'd want to hang on your wall and look at ? |
i thought the "view" aspect of my previous post encompassed the interesting picture part, oh well, at least I find it interesting.
yes I would love to hang my desat picture on my wall. I know several other people who would want this photo as well.
James
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06/22/2004 11:49:37 AM · #121 |
| He sort of made a good point about my picture but yet again he didn't. It actually made hardly any sense. I wish I could share the comment but I think it would give away what my photo is(or not) so I'll wait until after voting. |
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06/22/2004 11:50:30 AM · #122 |
Originally posted by jab119:
yes I would love to hang my desat picture on my wall. I know several other people who would want this photo as well.
James |
That's great then. nice shot!
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06/22/2004 11:57:34 AM · #123 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I find I've basically stopped providing comments |
This I think is a shame, Gordon. There are few enough people here giving comments in any kind of depth (and I no longer include the critique club in this, as I no longer participate or ask for opinions from it). I think over 90% of my comments are actually negative - pointing up things I either don't like or don't think work. I rarely get PM's that are offended by this (in fact the most recent is from GW himself), though a few photographers don't tick the helpful box. What I write about other photographs is almost always thought through, and considered - if they can't take that then I think that is more their problem than mine. There must be occasions when folks disagree with my opinions, but so far few if any have let me know about it.
That is a matter of tactful(ish) phrasing. I hope.
Ed
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06/22/2004 12:01:40 PM · #124 |
Glacierwolf can dish it out but he can't take criticism. See e301's comment on his picture. I don't mind his comments, but when you make harsh comments like this you better be able to accept them too instead of lashing out.
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06/22/2004 12:02:01 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by e301:
Originally posted by Gordon:
I find I've basically stopped providing comments |
This I think is a shame, Gordon. There are few enough people here giving comments in any kind of depth (and I no longer include the critique club in this, as I no longer participate or ask for opinions from it). I think over 90% of my comments are actually negative - pointing up things I either don't like or don't think work. I rarely get PM's that are offended by this (in fact the most recent is from GW himself), though a few photographers don't tick the helpful box. What I write about other photographs is almost always thought through, and considered - if they can't take that then I think that is more their problem than mine. There must be occasions when folks disagree with my opinions, but so far few if any have let me know about it.
That is a matter of tactful(ish) phrasing. I hope.
Ed |
I think the second part of the sentence that you (didn't) quote is more interesting than the first bit that you did.
I haven't stopped because people don't like what I said.
I've mostly stopped because I don't think it is useful without context. Or perhaps it is just that with context and debate it is so much more useful that I don't find it worthwhile any more. I learn much less from it because it usually generates more unanswered questions than insight.
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