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06/22/2004 09:13:22 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Nazgul:
Comments like "what where you thinking" dont have any meaning what so ever to peoples photography! |
How is that comment any different from "nice shot", other than that the latter is a pat on the back that people have no problem with? That is basically my point. They only want "feel good" comments. |
Eddy, I think if one tries really hard and puts one's mind to it, one can come up with a happy medium between 'nice shot' and 'what where you thinking?", or worse, "duh".
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06/22/2004 09:14:38 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Nazgul:
Comments like "what where you thinking" dont have any meaning what so ever to peoples photography! |
How is that comment any different from "nice shot", other than that the latter is a pat on the back that people have no problem with? That is basically my point. They only want "feel good" comments. If somebody were to leave even simple (but truthful, to them) comments like "unattractive subject", "bad composition", etc. they'd be ostracized in no time, just like dertyklobb was... |
dertyklobb didnt submit a single photo so I cant see how you can use him as an example!
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06/22/2004 09:16:37 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
It is exactly this type of reaction that prevents people (including myself) from commenting. These days, everybody (and not just on DPC, the world in general) wants things all "sugar coated" and "nice" instead of "hard" and "direct". Trust me, there would be a lot more people leaving comments much more harsh than those left by GlacierWolf if anonymous commenting was an option. I think he makes some good points in his post, and I give him credit for having the gumption to make comments, knowing that his name would be displayed right along with them so he could be bashed in the forums (which of course, he was).
Anybody remember dertyklobb? He commented on 100's of pictures in the Still Life challenge and made a lot of very valid points. But he was attacked in the forums and called an "idiot" (and a dumbass). He hasn't been back since.
It is unfortunate that people can't deal with criticism, whether it is "harshly worded" or not. Maybe we should rename the site to "FGChallenge" (FG for "Feel Good") so everybody knows to only leave "wow! great shot" type comments... |
It is disappointing to know that SC member would approve of a mean spirited thread such as this. |
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06/22/2004 09:16:53 AM · #54 |
| The basic advice is sound. It's a shame you didn't post it BEFORE the Challange started, so more people would be able to take advantage of the tips, and there wouldn't be any reason for harsh criticism. |
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06/22/2004 09:17:09 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
Eddy, I think if one tries really hard and puts one's mind to it, one can come up with a happy medium between 'nice shot' and 'what where you thinking?", or worse, "duh". |
Which takes me back to my point about having to "sugar coat" everything, instead of just "saying it like it is". I have to "try really hard and put my mind to it" to come up with a way to say what I really want to say in such a way as not to possibly offend anybody instead of just saying what I'm really thinking. |
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06/22/2004 09:19:35 AM · #56 |
nobody says you cant Eddy!
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06/22/2004 09:20:57 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Nazgul:
Comments like "what where you thinking" dont have any meaning what so ever to peoples photography! |
How is that comment any different from "nice shot", other than that the latter is a pat on the back that people have no problem with? That is basically my point. They only want "feel good" comments. If somebody were to leave even simple (but truthful, to them) comments like "unattractive subject", "bad composition", etc. they'd be ostracized in no time, just like dertyklobb was... |
I don't really think that is a fair to compare "what were you thinking" to "nice shot". The difference is "what were you thinking", no matter how you slice it, is a personal attack. It's just not necessary. However, I agree with what you said about "unattractive subject" and "bad compistion". I personally would much rather get 20 "unattractive subject" or "bad compistion", even if I don't agree, then get 1 "nice shot". Atleast they are telling me what they don't like. Having said that, I don't someone leaving "what were you thinking" in a comment, it's just insulting.
just my 2 cents |
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06/22/2004 09:21:22 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by Seanachai:
It is disappointing to know that SC member would approve of a mean spirited thread such as this. |
Unless stated otherwise, whenever an SC member posts to the forums, we are always speaking for ourselves. We are not a voice for the site, or the Site Council, unless we specifically say something to the effect of "as a member of the Site Council", etc. We are still entitled to our individual opinions even if we do assist with the daily tasks that keep DPC running. |
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06/22/2004 09:21:37 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Nazgul:
Comments like "what where you thinking" dont have any meaning what so ever to peoples photography! |
How is that comment any different from "nice shot", other than that the latter is a pat on the back that people have no problem with? That is basically my point. They only want "feel good" comments. |
This was the comment that was left on my desat photo
"A boring picture in color doesn't get better when you take some color away. What were you thinking??"
how does this comment help me? it does not. I understand that the "nice shot" comments dont do a damn thing either, but come on, some people just dont know how to leave a good comment. I am guilty of it also, but I dont come across rude and above all else in my comments.
I think that is the point people are making, someone is being very arrogant in their comments, yet his own photos are lacking.
He should apply his own comments to his photos before he tells the rest of us those things.
James
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06/22/2004 09:22:32 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by melismatica:
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Nazgul:
Comments like "what where you thinking" dont have any meaning what so ever to peoples photography! |
How is that comment any different from "nice shot", other than that the latter is a pat on the back that people have no problem with? That is basically my point. They only want "feel good" comments. |
Eddy, I think if one tries really hard and puts one's mind to it, one can come up with a happy medium between 'nice shot' and 'what where you thinking?", or worse, "duh". |
Eddy, the question isn't what's the difference between one unhelpful comment and another--the question is: what's the difference between malicious criticism and constructive criticism? Answer: one tears down, the other builds up.
I don't want "sugar coating" but I want more than: "Poor picture to choose. If a picture is boring in color - it doesn't get better when you remove some. What were you thinking??????"
Tell me why my subject is "poor" and "boring." Tell me to choose an image with more contrast. Suggest a better subject or tell me why this one doesn't work. Give me an idea about how I might do it better another time.
I'm here to learn. If I "submit poop – [I] will get poopie scores and poopy comments. Though this isn't necessarily the case, I will at least learn that's what some people think. If I submit nothing, I will learn nothing.
Oh, and one more difference between malice and construct: The first takes little effort and no thought. |
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06/22/2004 09:24:00 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Which takes me back to my point about having to "sugar coat" everything, instead of just "saying it like it is". I have to "try really hard and put my mind to it" to come up with a way to say what I really want to say in such a way as not to possibly offend anybody instead of just saying what I'm really thinking. |
Completely agree Eddy.. And like you mentioned, we've seen these lynch mobs before, and all it succeeds in doing is driving people away.
I have been, and still am, a promoter of a 'will accept terse comments' tick box, or as it's been called the 'hit me' option. If people want to 'opt out' of terse comments, fair enough, myself, I'd rather have people commenting rather than not doing because they feel they must sugar coat it.
Bring in the 'Hit Me' checkbox! |
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06/22/2004 09:25:46 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Nazgul:
Comments like "what where you thinking" dont have any meaning what so ever to peoples photography! |
How is that comment any different from "nice shot", other than that the latter is a pat on the back that people have no problem with? That is basically my point. They only want "feel good" comments. If somebody were to leave even simple (but truthful, to them) comments like "unattractive subject", "bad composition", etc. they'd be ostracized in no time, just like dertyklobb was... |
The difference is that one is polite and one is flat out rude. NO, people don't just want feel good comments but they would like a minute amount of politeness to go with the critique. If I were go go through all your shots and be rude with my comments, no matter how real they were you're going to tell me that you wouldn't become offended and slightly ticked? I went back through GlacierWolf's comments and he does the ability to be polite while giving CONSTRUCTIVE critique, the fact that he chooses to be flat out rude on others is just poor taste IMHO! I said it before, if you can't be POLITE then don't say anything.
Again, just in case you missed it in the above paragraph,
YOU CAN BE POLITE and GIVE CONSTRUCTIVE CRITIQUE! You do not need to be rude, condesending and have a better than thou attitude. It's human nature to be offended by the latter.
Deannda
I also notice that GlacierWolf is starting to get a little payback on his shots, what goes around comes around |
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06/22/2004 09:30:34 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Seanachai:
It is disappointing to know that SC member would approve of a mean spirited thread such as this. |
Unless stated otherwise, whenever an SC member posts to the forums, we are always speaking for ourselves. We are not a voice for the site, or the Site Council, unless we specifically say something to the effect of "as a member of the Site Council", etc. We are still entitled to our individual opinions even if we do assist with the daily tasks that keep DPC running. |
great, then just between you and me Glacierwolf is full of shit and mean spirited threads like this suck. |
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06/22/2004 09:35:12 AM · #64 |
I definitely understand the point about constructive criticism. I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't try to leave constructive comments... by all means, they should!
I guess my point is this (which I probably should have made more clear in my first reply, so I didn't come off sounding like I was advocating that everyone should start leaving rude comments): because of reactionary posts like this, people become more and more "afraid" to leave comments with any kind of negative connotation. They don't want to risk becoming the focus of a similar public "lynching". This results in pictures with low scores with only positive comments, and then inevitably, "why did my shot score so low? I got all kinds of good comments saying I had a nice shot" forum posts, which then leads to "we should require comments on any votes of 1 or 2"...
Message edited by author 2004-06-22 09:42:30. |
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06/22/2004 09:38:06 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
It is exactly this type of reaction that prevents people (including myself) from commenting. These days, everybody (and not just on DPC, the world in general) wants things all "sugar coated" and "nice" instead of "hard" and "direct". Trust me, there would be a lot more people leaving comments much more harsh than those left by GlacierWolf if anonymous commenting was an option. I think he makes some good points in his post, and I give him credit for having the gumption to make comments, knowing that his name would be displayed right along with them so he could be bashed in the forums (which of course, he was).
Anybody remember dertyklobb? He commented on 100's of pictures in the Still Life challenge and made a lot of very valid points. But he was attacked in the forums and called an "idiot" (and a dumbass). He hasn't been back since.
It is unfortunate that people can't deal with criticism, whether it is "harshly worded" or not. Maybe we should rename the site to "FGChallenge" (FG for "Feel Good") so everybody knows to only leave "wow! great shot" type comments... |
Ok then. Would you take this kind of attitude from someone in your family (spouse, child, parent, etc)? Probably not. Would you take it from someone at work (a supervisor or a co-worker)? Probably not. Why should it be accepted here?
Attitude is everything. Criticism, be it constructive or not, has to be delivered POLITELY and WITH TACT. No use in calling people stupid or ignorant. Most of us here have no problem stating that we are AMATEURS and this is a HOBBY. Sorry if we don't have the time or the energy to meet some people's expectations.
Criticism will go both ways. If someone starts leaving off-tone comments they better be ready to receive comments of similar nature in response. If they can't handle the responses they get to their comments, well then they shouldn't have used a nasty tone in the first place. You have to take as good as you give. The way I see it, if people leave after being called an "idiot" about arrogant/insulting comments, well, tough cookies. They lose even more respect since they fail to stand up to the consequences of their actions and opt for an easy out (abandoning the DPC community).
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06/22/2004 09:40:30 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
I definitely understand the point about constructive criticism. I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't try to leave constructive comments... by all means, they should!
I guess my point is this (which I probably should have made more clear in my first reply, so I didn't come off sounding like I was advocating that everyone should start leaving rude comments): because of reactionary posts like this, people become more and more "afraid" to leave comments with any kind of negative connotation. They don't want to risk a public "lynching". This results in pictures with low scores with only positive comments, and then inevitably, "why did my shot score so low? I got all kinds of good comments saying I had a nice shot" forum posts, which then leads to "we should require comments on any votes of 1 or 2"... |
I totally agree with this, it is a vicious circle. |
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06/22/2004 09:41:38 AM · #67 |
I've received some of my most helpful criticism from rude people. It's easier to swallow if it's gracious, but don't use the arrogance of the critic as an excuse to ignore valid criticism.
Remember, it's HIS decision to take such a disdainful approach, but it's YOUR decision whether or not to make good use of the criticism you receive. If you ignore valid criticism because it's rude, you choose not to stretch your talent. |
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06/22/2004 09:44:41 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by Seanachai:
]great, then just between you and me Glacierwolf is full of [edit] and mean spirited threads like this suck. |
I couldn't agree more. So how about not throwing more wood on the fire and all of us who are adults acting like it. Eddy's entitled to have an opinion outside of SC. That doesn't give any of us the right to try backing him into a corner.
Would you please consider editing your post so we can all continue this discussion WITHOUT having to invoke the SC highpoohbahs?
Thank you.
Clara
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06/22/2004 09:47:54 AM · #69 |
I kind of agree with Eddy on this one. I got a somewhat condescending comment from Glacier on this challenge, and it irritated me too. But having said that, I've seen the backlash people get for leaving negative comments (whether polite or rude) so, I've shied away from leaving comments that express a negative opinion.
We should all try to remember that sometimes it is difficult to discern someone's true intent or "mood" via text without a longer, more involved comment, and who wants to leave an opus just to say "I don't like your subject". At the same time, if I'd gotten Glacier's comment from a friend, it wouldn't have bothered me at all.
Adding my $0.02 to the pile...
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06/22/2004 09:48:23 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
These days, everybody (and not just on DPC, the world in general) wants things all "sugar coated" and "nice" instead of "hard" and "direct". |
I agree with you, Eddy. How can any comment be 'helpful' without some degree of criticism? I always try to offer some suggestion for improvement in my comments (even if I really like the photo). Sometimes I have to think long and hard before commenting on a lousy photo, so the message is construed as helpful rather than offensive or discouraging- and I'm not always successful.
I've noticed that when people post photos in the forums for independent critique, they often get pats on the back and promises of a high score when the image actually seems rather mediocre. There are a few people here that will come right out and say that it's not a great photo, but they will invariably be slammed if the comment isn't delicately phrased. I do think that commenters should avoid overly offensive criticism, but sometimes a language barrier or poor writing skills can make good intentions seem like an attack.
EDIT- Part of the problem is the general rush to comment on a lot of entries rather leaving detailed comments on a few. It's tough to be helpful with a 2 or 3-word critique. I'd rather get a thoughtful paragraph from 3 people than 30 comments that don't add up to a complete thought.
This is an open site devoted to improving photography skills. The only real prize to be won is experience. If we sugar-coat our votes and comments, then we rob ourselves of the primary benefit of this site.
Message edited by author 2004-06-22 09:54:28. |
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06/22/2004 09:49:53 AM · #71 |
Just food for thought. If kiwiness (sorry to pick on you Gary) were the one posting, "what were you thinking?" comments would the reaction be the same? Part of the argument I'm seeing is that because GW isn't a "great" photographer, his comments should carry less weight.
Just something to consider.
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06/22/2004 09:50:28 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
I definitely understand the point about constructive criticism. I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't try to leave constructive comments... by all means, they should!
I guess my point is this (which I probably should have made more clear in my first reply, so I didn't come off sounding like I was advocating that everyone should start leaving rude comments): because of reactionary posts like this, people become more and more "afraid" to leave comments with any kind of negative connotation. They don't want to risk a public "lynching". This results in pictures with low scores with only positive comments, and then inevitably, "why did my shot score so low? I got all kinds of good comments saying I had a nice shot" forum posts, which then leads to "we should require comments on any votes of 1 or 2"... |
Pardon me, but WHO started this thread? WHO sub-titled this thread "A Huge Failure?"
The same person who was outted in the thread titled "No Way" when it became apparent that several of us had been on the receiving end of his tactlessness.
Moral 1: Don't leave comments like his comments and you'll have nothing to be "afraid" of.
Moral 2: You can say anything you want if you can take it.
BTW, this is hardly a public lynching--there's no charter bus to Alaska with DPC'ers on it and no bounty posters hanging around on the site. Looks to me like a bunch of thoughful (and somewhat offended) group of people discussing what makes good criticism and what does not. (And that hardly constitutes grounds for an excuse to not do the work of leaving comments.) |
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06/22/2004 09:51:46 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Which takes me back to my point about having to "sugar coat" everything, instead of just "saying it like it is". I have to "try really hard and put my mind to it" to come up with a way to say what I really want to say in such a way as not to possibly offend anybody instead of just saying what I'm really thinking. |
I absolutely want to hear as much criticism of my photos as possible. The whole point of this site is to get feedback on our photos in order to improve our photography skills. Practice and suggestions for improvement are the only way to achieve that goal.
However, it doesn't help the person who is giving or receiving the comment to make irrelevant insults. While a bunch of "Nice shot!" comments also don't provide practical advice for improvement, they do make the photographer feel good and more inspired to continue with the hobby that he or she loves. I'm having a hard time understanding why you think that's a bad thing, as well as why you are confusing the many requests in this thread to refrain from insults for requests not to give thoughtful critiques.
If I were to follow what seems to be your advice, it would be perfectly allright for me to reply to your messages by saying something like, "You don't know what you're talking about, so just shut up until you have something useful to say. What were you thinking?" I can't imagine that you'd find that comment helpful in any way and I don't consider it a waste of time at all to write something a bit more thoughtful.
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06/22/2004 09:56:52 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
Moral 1: Don't leave comments like his comments and you'll have nothing to be "afraid" of. |
So what you're saying is, people shouldn't leave terse comments at all, because SOME people don't like them?
Originally posted by KaDi:
BTW, this is hardly a public lynching |
It certainly seems that way. |
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06/22/2004 09:57:22 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by blemt:
Just food for thought. If kiwiness (sorry to pick on you Gary) were the one posting, "what were you thinking?" comments would the reaction be the same? Part of the argument I'm seeing is that because GW isn't a "great" photographer, his comments should carry less weight.
Just something to consider. |
I think it would be simply because it's human nature to react this way. We are here to learn and if Gary were to go around and just say, "What were you thinking?" or "Duh!" people would still be offended because the comment is neither helpful or polite. I don't want sugar coating, I want polite, there again, is a difference. Glacierwolf said in one place that the comments are directed at the pictures, not the photographer, no, they are not, not comments like that.
I try to teach my girls that you can be honest and polite. Instead of just cutting the other person down or what they have done, try to tell them why you didn't like it, what it did to you personally (hurt your feelings, offended your senses) and if possible offer solutions as to how the problem can be fixed. What kind of world are we all working for if we can't at least be polite to one another? Look at some of the comments and critiques I have left and you will see that I didn't sugar coat them but I was polite in my delivery. IF I like something I say so, If I don't like something I will also say so and try to be polite and civilized about it.
Deannda
Again, if you can't at least be polite, then don't say anything |
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