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06/30/2010 02:46:12 PM · #1
I think it would be interesting to have an open study challenge where we are not allowed to edit the image at all.
The original is what is submitted.

What do you think?
06/30/2010 02:50:26 PM · #2
I know a lot of people like what has been styled "Classic Editing"--straight out of the camera--but I am not a fan.

ETA: Oh, right, used to be "Classic" but is now "Minimal Editing." Thanks, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Citadel.

Message edited by author 2010-06-30 15:29:21.
06/30/2010 02:56:40 PM · #3
I like this idea. It puts the emphasis on the quality of the shot rather than the skill of the processing.
06/30/2010 02:58:11 PM · #4
Straight from the camera

To me it's as appealing as a raw bread dough eating contest. ;-)
But there are lots of purists who love this sort of thing.
06/30/2010 03:08:51 PM · #5
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Straight from the camera

To me it's as appealing as a raw bread dough eating contest. ;-)
But there are lots of purists who love this sort of thing.


Thanks for sharing that link! I am new to taking photos and am just at the stage of learning to take a good photo...I just haven't gotten into the post processing yet, other than a crop. Nice to know the idea has been done before.
06/30/2010 03:09:44 PM · #6
Originally posted by NiallOTuama:

I like this idea. It puts the emphasis on the quality of the shot rather than the skill of the processing.


I agree it would be nice to be judged on something other than the processing of the image...but that is because I can't do that yet! :D
06/30/2010 03:17:58 PM · #7
Its actually minimal editing:
//www.dpchallenge.com/challenge_rules.php?RULES_ID=15

Here is an example challenge:
//www.dpchallenge.com/challenge_results.php?CHALLENGE_ID=921

Basically you had to shoot in JPG (because RAW conversion isn't allowed). you can rotate, completely desaturate or use grey scale (no channel mixer etc for monochrome conversion) and basic sharpening (i.e no unsharp mask)
06/30/2010 03:31:12 PM · #8
To me, photography = exposure + processing.

Take only one of those, and you don't yet have photography.

To me, "straight from the camera" makes about as much sense as a "CGI" challenge--and when I say CGI, I mean something more than expert editing, where there's not even a light-based exposure as part of the composition.
06/30/2010 03:32:04 PM · #9
According to me, post processing is more challenging than taking the actual shot. With the shot you just can press the shutter if you have already decided on what to shoot. If you give the idea to someone else and tell them how to press the shutter, they will take the same shot for you.

But doing the actual Post Processing and deciding what can make your good image look WAYYY better is the real challenge.

Remember, post processing can also ruin a good image. So, don't think that post processing is just done to make the image better and shoudn't be a part of photography challenge and all that.

Photography should be treated as an art no matter what the workflow process was. The end result matters and that is what should be judged. I am always all up for PP. Infact, photography cannot exist without some form of PP ...
06/30/2010 03:43:10 PM · #10
I love these conversations. I think there is room for all of the editing choices we have on this site. I don't care for expert editing challenges, only because I have no skills in that area but I love seeing what others come up with.

It's been a while since a minimal editing challenge, so it would be fun to see one again. FWIW, one of my potential FS choices is minimal editing, I think sometimes less can be more.

In the digital age, as in film before it, some kind of processing is needed to turn a digital negative into a photo. It's an ongoing discussion around here and a very emotive one at that.

I still believe, at the end of the day, whatever the editing possibilities in the challenge the winning entries will be both of the following:

a) an interesting/unusual composition of an interesting/unusual subject
b) correctly exposed with good lighting

My observations over the years I have been taking part here, is that those who can typically achieve A & B succeed in whichever type of editing challenge they enter. That's not to suggest that advanced post processing does not aid many entries, of course it does, but some people around here are such accomplished photographers, they do not need it to win.

Definitely would be fun to see another minimal editing challenge sometime soon.
06/30/2010 03:57:10 PM · #11
I actually do a "straight from camera" approach on occasion to help force me to get things right in camera. That's always the best place to do things. The whole "I'll fix it Photoshop" mentality tends to yield poor quality results in the end. The best images always have a good image to start off with. Its also one of the reason I shoot film from time to time. You get one chance to get the image and you don't have a delete button. I find that my pictures are better after one of these sessions. Maybe I ought to do another? =)

eta: For those that think that post-processing is an absolute necessity have a look at this image
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/921/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_722920.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/921/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_722920.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Message edited by author 2010-06-30 16:00:09.
06/30/2010 04:01:05 PM · #12
while i do agree post processing is an integral part of photography with both digital AND film, I did enjoy this line from the "One Light" flash photography instructional dvd's I just watched:

"If you ever catch yourself saying 'ahh, I'll just fix it in Photoshop' slap yourself accross the face as hard as you can"
06/30/2010 04:09:46 PM · #13
\Begin Disclaimer: These are purely my views. I do not want to start a debate, or change your views if you believe otherwise:-)

In some sense, I consider myself a purist. To me (and yes you can disagree, and no I am not asking you to change what you think it is, and yes I am learning post processing, but keeping in mind there is a reason it is called 'post' processing :-),

[1] Digital Photography involves:
-- Capturing the RAW image using the digital camera's sensor onto an electronic data storage medium (analogous to capturing light from a scene on a photographic film)
-- Converting the RAW image into a common viewable image format (analogous to developing the film and transferring the latent image it carries to a 'final image' on a photo paper in the dark room).

[2] The first capture of interaction of light with matter (scene/subjects) is most important. Any further processing on the digital or analog capture will only enhance (or deteriorate) the 'final image' and convert it into a 'post processed image' (analogous to print processing, techniques like dodge, burn, etc.).

A helpful reference.
Another helpful reference.

/End Disclaimer
06/30/2010 04:17:08 PM · #14
Originally posted by Citadel:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/921/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_722920.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/921/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_722920.jpg', '/') + 1) . '


A great photo under the Minimal Editing ruleset, but I think it would be misleading to say it's completely unedited. It has definitely been sharpened, and Minimal Editing allows for in-camera adjustments that result in output different from what the sensor actually recorded.
07/01/2010 05:15:09 AM · #15
Originally posted by ashishkushwaha:

According to me, post processing is more challenging than taking the actual shot. With the shot you just can press the shutter if you have already decided on what to shoot. If you give the idea to someone else and tell them how to press the shutter, they will take the same shot for you.


If you give 2 cameras to 2 people and tell them to take a picture of a scene-you will get two very different results depending on how the person looks at it. Before joining DP I hated photoshop and didn't think of it as real photography...however after looking at so many images I can see it's potential, and I will learn how to "enhance" my photos...eventually. My eyes are now open, however you still need to capture a good image.

Originally posted by ashishkushwaha:


I am always all up for PP. Infact, photography cannot exist without some form of PP ...

By saying that do you then think that all the images in the Straight from camera challenge are not photograhpy??? I am quite impressed by the high standard in this challenge considering how dependant some people can be on using photoshop or some similar program. I do think there is a place for both.
07/01/2010 05:48:34 AM · #16
Originally posted by bubbles13:

Originally posted by ashishkushwaha:

According to me, post processing is more challenging than taking the actual shot. With the shot you just can press the shutter if you have already decided on what to shoot. If you give the idea to someone else and tell them how to press the shutter, they will take the same shot for you.


If you give 2 cameras to 2 people and tell them to take a picture of a scene-you will get two very different results depending on how the person looks at it. Before joining DP I hated photoshop and didn't think of it as real photography...however after looking at so many images I can see it's potential, and I will learn how to "enhance" my photos...eventually. My eyes are now open, however you still need to capture a good image.

Originally posted by ashishkushwaha:


I am always all up for PP. Infact, photography cannot exist without some form of PP ...

By saying that do you then think that all the images in the Straight from camera challenge are not photograhpy??? I am quite impressed by the high standard in this challenge considering how dependant some people can be on using photoshop or some similar program. I do think there is a place for both.


To carry the analogy, does this mean that real photography only consists of undeveloped film? Don't fall to the illusion that the masters of photography weren't doing their own tricks in the darkroom. That's a serious misunderstanding.
07/01/2010 06:05:57 AM · #17
Originally posted by bubbles13:



Originally posted by ashishkushwaha:


I am always all up for PP. Infact, photography cannot exist without some form of PP ...

By saying that do you then think that all the images in the Straight from camera challenge are not photograhpy???


' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', '/') + 1) . ' ashishkushwaha is correct. Straight from the camera involves processing as well. The difference is that it is about 'who' is doing the processing. A straight from the camera challenge makes the camera and its many programs and modes and options for saturation, sharpness etc do the processing for you. Allowing the photographer to do the processing allows the photographer to have control of the processing and not leaving it up to some box in your hand.

Personally, I think it is better for the photographer to have control and to allow them to see the vision they had in their heads before the camera shutter was fired.
07/01/2010 06:07:05 AM · #18
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:


To carry the analogy, does this mean that real photography only consists of undeveloped film? Don't fall to the illusion that the masters of photography weren't doing their own tricks in the darkroom. That's a serious misunderstanding.


even if i do not make PP really advanced (i like the shots good out of camera as more as possible) i totally agree with Derek...

07/01/2010 07:09:38 AM · #19
I don’t really see what the big fuss is about photoshop /digital post processing. The most common argument against it is that altered images don’t look “realistic”. We use hardware all the time to alter our images. Does a long-exposure seascape (after graduated filters) look like that in real-life? Or what about a bug macro with an extremely shallow depth of focus or better yet what about an image where a simple flash or a fish-eye lens was utilized? My point is, most “straight from the camera” photographs are not accurate representations of what we see in real life. Does it really matter whether we utilized hardware or software to alter our photos in order to obtain the vision we had in mind?

Message edited by author 2010-07-01 07:11:17.
07/01/2010 08:20:43 AM · #20
as a newcomer to the site and someone who has yet to submit an entry, i feel i can line up and take a good shot, but my photoshop skills are far inferior to almost anyone here. its kind of intimidating knowing my submissions wont stack up for that reason.

photoshop takes good images and makes them stunning, when i got into this hobby i was a little disappointed to find that post processing seems to be the most important tool in creating an good image.

In the spirit of the OPs challenge, I be curious to see a contest where we are all given the same image and have a contest to post process it.

by the way the "straight from the camera" pictures are amazing, that's what i strive to accomplish.

Message edited by author 2010-07-01 08:24:10.
07/01/2010 08:27:04 AM · #21
Originally posted by mike_311:

I be curious to see a contest where we are all given the same image and have a contest to post process it.


You'd be interested in the PP side challenge that was ongoing for a while.
07/01/2010 10:47:05 AM · #22
I like this idea as it levels the playing field for those of us that are "Post processing" challenged, lol.
07/01/2010 11:10:21 AM · #23
While I really do feel for those who are feeling left out of the whole processing thing, I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment. As I said earlier, this has ALWAYS been the case (processing makes good photos stunning). Many famous photographers achieved their "look" through careful development. The thing is, back then, you needed to invest in lots of film, chemicals, and a darkroom. Honestly, I wish I could have done all that when I was younger, but I didn't have the resources at my disposal. Now you can download GIMP and get cooking. So while I understand being intimidated (I know I was... I lurked here for a long time before even posting to the forum), decrying other's dedication to advancing their vision while refusing to do so yourself seems ridiculous to me.
The tools are there for people, and we have a great community that is willing to show you how to use those tools. Hell, that's EXACTLY what Yo_Spiff's Sub-Club is ALL about.
This isn't to say I don't think minimal challenges are interesting and a good idea, because I do think they're good.
But it strikes me as a bit odd to insist that we eliminate from the playing board the knowledge, dedication, and effort needed to hone one's skills in order for those who refuse to do the same to be on the same level. Shall we say that all individuals with expensive lenses, which they worked long and hard to afford, should not be allowed to use them because not all individuals are willing to take the sacrifice to afford them themselves? That's absurd. It's also missing the point- post processing isn't just about randomly moving sliders in PS or inherent PS skill. It's about having the ability to manifest a scene from one's mind. The most proficient PS user in the world would repeatedly make shitty images if they didn't have a vision for what they were creating. Develop your vision, hone your tools. The best sculpter in the world is useless if all they do is carve doorknobs. Think about it.

/rant.
07/01/2010 11:16:33 AM · #24
Originally posted by mike_311:

as a newcomer to the site and someone who has yet to submit an entry, i feel i can line up and take a good shot, but my photoshop skills are far inferior to almost anyone here. its kind of intimidating knowing my submissions wont stack up for that reason.

photoshop takes good images and makes them stunning, when i got into this hobby i was a little disappointed to find that post processing seems to be the most important tool in creating an good image.

In the spirit of the OPs challenge, I be curious to see a contest where we are all given the same image and have a contest to post process it.

by the way the "straight from the camera" pictures are amazing, that's what i strive to accomplish.


Check out ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' RayEthier. His work is sftc. My bf, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Magnumphotography, also does very little pp (he doesn't even own Photoshop, just does any in iPhoto).

And, as I learned the painful way, no amount of pp will improve a poor image. In fact it usually does just the opposite, and highlight its flaws! Most of my early stuff from 3-4 years ago will prove this. See my portfolio for proof!

IMHO the pp should only be used to enhance an already good image, and you certainly don't need to be a PS wizard to do well here.

Hope this helps, in the meantime just keep shooting. Concentrate on getting a really good image, and to paraphrase what someone else has already said, don't think about how you can fix stuff in pp.
07/01/2010 11:27:29 AM · #25
I still like the idea of an unedited challenge as every other challenge we have here allows for some editing, regardless of how minimal, to be done to the shot and doesn't cause the photographer to rely even more on their photography skills. This would just be another type of exercise in skill, just not many are currently used to working with.

For the record. :)
Some of us ARE trying to learn (and ARE in the sub-club), but doing it on your own with EXCEPTIONALLY few willing to ever comment on a shot (I've been trying for almost two years to find someone willing to mentor me in Photoshop), doesn't help those of us on sensory overload trying to figure it all out alone. I was not trying to implying that knowing how to post process was something that those of us not currently excelling at(but trying to learn), was the entire issue. Personally, I'd like to hone my photography skills first, then my post processing or at least at the same time, rather than the emphasis always being on the post processing first (or so it seems). (IMHO, if I photograph well, there is less of a need for post processing.)

I vote yes! :P

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