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06/27/2010 01:01:26 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
IMO it's not always only technical savvy, or gear, or software, or PP. I can always use those tips, don't get me wrong, but what I'm especially hoping for is just someone else's eye & honesty. I already got 2 great remarks--"it looks flat" & "try zooming the lens while moving the camera." I'd like to improve my score, because that would probably mean I'm improving my technicals. But I would really like to improve my ability to see my own work as though it were someone else's. I don't get that much criticism (or give it). It helps if you "know" the person you are offering critical remarks to, & can establish a dialog & there's less risk of misunderstanding/hurt feelings. I'm looking forward to it, whoever my coach will be--thanks in advance! |
Auntie done jogged my noggin a little with this one. What might be really special about this project is the back & forth amongst us. I've gotten to a point where I'm less concerned about what someone thinks I should do to "fix" my image than their reactions & impressions from it. What I've emboldened above is what really struck me about what she's trying to convey. For me it's as much about what one can do to convey the message. With direct back-and-forth amongst us, and the photog explaining what they're trying to convey, this could be really something!
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06/27/2010 01:37:46 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
But I would really like to improve my ability to see my own work as though it were someone else's. |
One thing that has worked for me, has been when I post a challenge entry, I put a list of anticipated critiques in my pre-challenge notes. Doing this makes me look for the potential flaws that someone might leave in a comment. I also divide critiques into 2 broad categories: genuine flaws and personal preferences. |
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06/27/2010 01:45:17 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by NiallOTuama:
Why not localise the sub-club on each submission to a competition? So we just comment on the photo in the competition. |
This would, I think, result in everyone having to hide their work for this SC in their workshop from everyone but the folks helping them. Part of the benefit I think, will be the ability to see what others are doing with theirs. If you do want some feedback on a potential challenge entry, there are always plenty of folks (myself included) that will be happy to give you some feedback and agree to skip voting on yours if it comes up. |
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06/27/2010 02:24:44 PM · #54 |
Oh. So the focus of the club is more based on getting better results in the current competition rather than learning how to better your previous entries?
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06/27/2010 03:03:06 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by NiallOTuama:
Oh. So the focus of the club is more based on getting better results in the current competition rather than learning how to better your previous entries? |
Sorry, I didn't understand your point originally. That makes sense to me now. If someone wants to use a challenge entry to improve on, that's great. I do want to make sure they use something that they can reshoot if needed, because there is only so much you can do in post processing with some shots, and I want to make sure we cover the camera skills part of the equation, not just PP.
I don't intend for this to be for current challenges at all, but rather to build shooting and post processing skills that will help those entries later on. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.
Message edited by author 2010-06-27 15:04:29. |
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06/27/2010 03:46:16 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by NiallOTuama:
Oh. So the focus of the club is more based on getting better results in the current competition rather than learning how to better your previous entries? |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Sorry, I didn't understand your point originally. That makes sense to me now. If someone wants to use a challenge entry to improve on, that's great. I do want to make sure they use something that they can reshoot if needed, because there is only so much you can do in post processing with some shots, and I want to make sure we cover the camera skills part of the equation, not just PP.
I don't intend for this to be for current challenges at all, but rather to build shooting and post processing skills that will help those entries later on. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. |
FWIW, as it would seem to make sense to me, the best help would be that which helps the photog to get the feedback necessary to be able to put forth the image they want, the way they want it, rather than necessarily try to ascertain what it is that the voters want. I chased scores for a long time, remained frustrated and disgusted, then started to concentrate on trying to fix me, and get to know my own strengths and weaknesses, rather than try to specifically try to do whatever it was that I thought would score well. Once I started to be able to have a better grasp on what I was doing, the scores went with it. Oddly, I've had a rash of stuff lately that hasn't resonated well with the voters, yet the entries were exactly as I had intended, so I didn't care that they hadn't done particularly well. I came here to learn, and I did learn, but I learned what I had to do to get decent scores after I learned how to better shoot and process. I also got a better handle on what the voters won't tolerate, and over time, got to a point where I started to do what it is that I like, and in the long run that is more rewarding. If your entry is exactly as you want and intend, then the vagaries of the voters aren't so important. I learned this lesson hard during the DPL......shooting for scores, because you're strictly trying to score well, and enter because you have to, can be incredibly demorlizing.
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06/27/2010 03:52:22 PM · #57 |
| I agree with you on that, Jeb. I've found that by learning how to improve the shots that I like, rather than what I *think* others want to see, I have improved. There's a reason I don't do a lot of flower shots, though I could probably score highly with them. My wife loves flowers,however, and can't understand my fascination with old rusty-crusty things. She finds airplanes kind of boring as well, while they are one of my favorite subjects. |
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06/27/2010 05:05:08 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
My wife loves flowers,however, and can't understand my fascination with old rusty-crusty things. |
I don't quite understand.....are you saying that if I was say.....in a white-sand, beach town on vacation that I shouldn't be likely to shoot a picture like this my first night here????
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06/27/2010 05:21:54 PM · #59 |
I notice I still don't have any particulars by my name.. :)
Here's the low-down.. Photoshop CS4, Topaz De-Noise, Topaz Remask, Topaz Detail, Photomatix, GIMP(user-not expert), Noise Ninja, Nik Sharpener Pro, Nik Silver Efex
If my portfolio is any indication, I'm probably a good go-to for HDR work and my on-the-cheap studio methods seem to be fairly successful...
Also, I've recently been working on my skills in the area of web optimization, with emphasis on DPC tastes (sharp and clean), using a number of different techniques.
ETA: I'm able to help today because of all the great help I've gotten from some fantastic DPC'ers (too many to list, but mostly the usual suspects..)... Thanks to all of you who've helped me get so much better in the last six months, there's no doubt that I've improved in the areas listed above, some a little, some a ton.
After all, not only do all of you continue to help me if I should have a question, but, perhaps more importantly, you provide the inspiration and reason for me to shoot my photographs... Sure a few people around here care, but hell, I don't even really know 100 people (nor do I really care to, mind you I might define "know" slightly differently than some people would...)
And for those of you out there who need the help, remember that we're going to improve and learn by helping you, so don't think that you are somehow "imposing" on us... We'll enjoy this too..
Cheers!
-Cory
Message edited by author 2010-06-27 17:30:34. |
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06/27/2010 05:32:44 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I agree with you on that, Jeb. I've found that by learning how to improve the shots that I like, rather than what I *think* others want to see, I have improved. There's a reason I don't do a lot of flower shots, though I could probably score highly with them. My wife loves flowers,however, and can't understand my fascination with old rusty-crusty things. She finds airplanes kind of boring as well, while they are one of my favorite subjects. |
Well... At least I can say that my lovely lady likes my photography more than she likes my fascination with minerals and other geological/biological/mechanical fascinations... Not that she's exactly a huge fan of me and my camera...
The other day she said she wanted a perfume that smelled like Canon L glass...
Message edited by author 2010-06-27 17:34:18. |
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06/28/2010 09:10:59 PM · #61 |
Steve: when do we start? How will the students be assigned to mentors? I would like to start seeking some advise:-)
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06/28/2010 09:51:14 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Prash:
Steve: when do we start? How will the students be assigned to mentors? I would like to start seeking some advise:-) |
Is that a silent "P"???
(J/K)
;-) |
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06/28/2010 09:56:29 PM · #63 |
I think it would work well for everyone wanting coaching to contact one or two coaches to work more closely with. (Input accepted from all however, but I feel this gives it some structure) Preferably someone who uses similar software, though it does not have to be so. (I just feel it is a big help) Let's post the original edits in this thread, but try to keep as much of the discussion as possible in the comments of the original shot. anyone who wants to follow it, can go into that original shot to read what has been suggested and done. Again, make sure to use a shot that is possible to go out and reshoot if needed, as I want to try and include camera skills in this and sometimes a reshoot is what is needed.
I'll start a posting thread with the new month. |
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06/28/2010 10:01:02 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
FWIW, as it would seem to make sense to me, the best help would be that which helps the photog to get the feedback necessary to be able to put forth the image they want, the way they want it, rather than necessarily try to ascertain what it is that the voters want. I chased scores for a long time, remained frustrated and disgusted, then started to concentrate on trying to fix me, and get to know my own strengths and weaknesses, rather than try to specifically try to do whatever it was that I thought would score well. Once I started to be able to have a better grasp on what I was doing, the scores went with it. Oddly, I've had a rash of stuff lately that hasn't resonated well with the voters, yet the entries were exactly as I had intended, so I didn't care that they hadn't done particularly well. I came here to learn, and I did learn, but I learned what I had to do to get decent scores after I learned how to better shoot and process. I also got a better handle on what the voters won't tolerate, and over time, got to a point where I started to do what it is that I like, and in the long run that is more rewarding. If your entry is exactly as you want and intend, then the vagaries of the voters aren't so important. I learned this lesson hard during the DPL......shooting for scores, because you're strictly trying to score well, and enter because you have to, can be incredibly demorlizing. |
The voters want what we all want--to have their socks knocked off by a stunning original photo. I think to accomplish that, the photographer must first be a stunning original person in general. I think maybe that's why so many photographers settle instead for "schtick" (did I spell it right) or gimmick, like Mapplethorpe & his giant penises or Greenberg & her crying children. People easily forget that what they are looking at isn't original, but only shocking. I've come to the dismal conclusion that photography is always going to be just outside my grasp. I'll never be anything more than a little creative. But I will probably never stop having fun trying. As long as it's still fun, I'll be cliking that shutter/mouse. |
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06/29/2010 07:13:17 AM · #65 |
A huge thanks to all those who have volunteered as coaches, and thanks to Steve for putting this together. After being here 3 years, and shooting all sorts of subjects, and buying new equipment and editing plug-ins, and still pulling low- to mid-four's on a semi-regular basis, I definitely need another viewpoint.
I think the quality of the entries has gone up a lot in the past three years, and voting has gotten tougher - but the outstanding (and high scoring) images are just that - outstanding. My eye can see the difference, but I'm coming up short on subject and/or editing.
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06/29/2010 11:03:46 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
The voters want what we all want--to have their socks knocked off by a stunning original photo. I think to accomplish that, the photographer must first be a stunning original person in general. I think maybe that's why so many photographers settle instead for "schtick" (did I spell it right) or gimmick, like Mapplethorpe & his giant penises or Greenberg & her crying children. People easily forget that what they are looking at isn't original, but only shocking. I've come to the dismal conclusion that photography is always going to be just outside my grasp. I'll never be anything more than a little creative. But I will probably never stop having fun trying. As long as it's still fun, I'll be cliking that shutter/mouse. |
Well, I'm glad you'll always think it's fun, but I think it's unfortunate that your view of yourself is so dismal. I thin anybody can have creative ideas. Sometimes, it's just very hard to let them loose. You need to practice at seeing, practice at conceptualizing, and practice at effecting the image you want. When all these things come together, then you have what you intended. It's hard, but it is possible, for anybody. I hope everybody here realizes that. It may come more naturally for some, but I sincerely think it is possible for everybody, it just takes time and effort.
I think we should all enter this exercise expecting to learn, both as teachers and as students. We must accept that we'll be forced to view things differently, and to evaluate our photos in a more critical and detailed manner that we may not have done before. But, to me, the key is that we all learn something. It doesn't matter if it is "how to create the ribbon winner" or "effective use of aperture," both are beneficial to those involved. So, in closing, I hope that we all seek to learn something, above all else, and not to expect a perfect score, coming out of this. We're here to learn, and share. Winning is nice, but the journey is what we're all after. Step by step, we will get there, together.
Message edited by author 2010-06-29 12:12:55. |
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06/29/2010 11:40:42 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
I think we should all enter this exercise expecting to learn, both as teachers and as students. |
An excellent point. Often the best way to learn something is by having to explain it to someone else. |
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06/30/2010 06:56:42 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by NiallOTuama:
I think I've got a good idea on how the sub-club might work.
Why not localise the sub-club on each submission to a competition? So we just comment on the photo in the competition. That way our tutors can put their suggestions, we can try it, and post on the original submission thread, and that way we can easily see the difference between the submitted photo and the enhanced (hopefully!) one. If it takes a few rounds to get the right image, great. We can see the progression to the final product.
I think that'd be the best way to work this.
How does that sound? |
Only issue I can see with this is the fact that effectively it's much easier and far less problematic to avoid challenge images and just concentrate on this as a sort of Side Challenge..
Message edited by author 2010-06-30 19:15:19. |
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06/30/2010 07:08:20 PM · #69 |
| Spiffy, is it too late to try and join? I need help! |
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06/30/2010 07:19:19 PM · #70 |
| Man..Just realized, I think I'm the only "coach" with no ribbon.....ooof. |
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06/30/2010 07:23:44 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by PGerst:
Man..Just realized, I think I'm the only "coach" with no ribbon.....ooof. |
Nope, I'm a ribbonless coach too.. I've got a nice gold star though... |
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06/30/2010 07:24:38 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by PGerst:
Man..Just realized, I think I'm the only "coach" with no ribbon.....ooof. |
Nope, I'm a ribbonless coach too.. I've got a nice gold star though... |
(Teacher's pet!!) |
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06/30/2010 07:34:49 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by bergiekat:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by PGerst:
Man..Just realized, I think I'm the only "coach" with no ribbon.....ooof. |
Nope, I'm a ribbonless coach too.. I've got a nice gold star though... |
(Teacher's pet!!) |
:D |
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06/30/2010 07:37:06 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by pixelpig:
The voters want what we all want--to have their socks knocked off by a stunning original photo. I think to accomplish that, the photographer must first be a stunning original person in general. I think maybe that's why so many photographers settle instead for "schtick" (did I spell it right) or gimmick, like Mapplethorpe & his giant penises or Greenberg & her crying children. People easily forget that what they are looking at isn't original, but only shocking. I've come to the dismal conclusion that photography is always going to be just outside my grasp. I'll never be anything more than a little creative. But I will probably never stop having fun trying. As long as it's still fun, I'll be cliking that shutter/mouse. |
Well, I'm glad you'll always think it's fun, but I think it's unfortunate that your view of yourself is so dismal. I thin anybody can have creative ideas. Sometimes, it's just very hard to let them loose. You need to practice at seeing, practice at conceptualizing, and practice at effecting the image you want. When all these things come together, then you have what you intended. It's hard, but it is possible, for anybody. I hope everybody here realizes that. It may come more naturally for some, but I sincerely think it is possible for everybody, it just takes time and effort.
I think we should all enter this exercise expecting to learn, both as teachers and as students. We must accept that we'll be forced to view things differently, and to evaluate our photos in a more critical and detailed manner that we may not have done before. But, to me, the key is that we all learn something. It doesn't matter if it is "how to create the ribbon winner" or "effective use of aperture," both are beneficial to those involved. So, in closing, I hope that we all seek to learn something, above all else, and not to expect a perfect score, coming out of this. We're here to learn, and share. Winning is nice, but the journey is what we're all after. Step by step, we will get there, together. |
The best way to learn anything is to try to teach it to someone else, true. And some things are beyond the teacher/student environment, requiring a leap of faith by the student alone. I've always had a strong attachment to photography simply because it's always been just outside my grasp. I appreciate it when I see it, but I don't seem to be able to do it by any other way than serendippity. I can look back at my digital files over the past 12 years & see the story of me steadily improving, getting better gear, etc. I'm totally seduced by the notion that in 'just one more shot,' I might get perfection.
This Side Challenge seems like a very good idea to me. I hope to learn a bit about how to step outside my own relationship w/my photography & see my work as others see it. That would be wonderful. I'm all about the journey. |
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06/30/2010 08:13:58 PM · #75 |
Anyone else, especially you coaches, a Mac user too. It would make things easier although I have both systems here to use. I would rather learn more about how things work on my Mac then keep doing them on Steve's computer.
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