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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> Socialism - defined
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06/22/2010 01:16:41 PM · #1
For the benefit of those who haven't studied political science, or who may have forgotten what they learned in poli sci 101, here is a very basic and unbiased definition of socialism, taken from reference.com:

socialism
socialism is the general term for the political and economic theory that advocates a system of collective or government ownership and management of the means of production and distribution of goods. Pam's note: all western nations, including Europe, have this in some form already and have had it for many many years.

Because of the collective nature of socialism, it is to be contrasted to the doctrine of the sanctity of private property that characterizes capitalism. Where capitalism stresses competition and profit, socialism calls for cooperation and social service.

In a broader sense, the term socialism is often used loosely to describe economic theories ranging from those that hold that only certain public utilities and natural resources should be owned by the state to those holding that the state should assume responsibility for all economic planning and direction.

In the past 150 years there have been innumerable differing socialist programs. For this reason socialism as a doctrine is ill defined, although its main purpose, the establishment of cooperation in place of competition remains fixed.

Pam's note: Socialism is the moderate, or middle position between pure capitalism and pure communism. Communism is an extreme leftism ideology that takes socialism well beyond its moderate intentions.
06/22/2010 01:58:48 PM · #2
Originally posted by frisca:


socialism
socialism is the general term for the political and economic theory that advocates a system of collective or government ownership and management of the means of production and distribution of goods. Pam's note: all western nations, including Europe, have this in some form already and have had it for many many years.



Since you indicate that all western nations have what you posted above, perhaps you can tell me how the Canadian government manages and owns the distrubution systems. And maybe you can tell me what part of the American free enterprise system is owned and managed by the government.

Walt's Note: Just looked like no one was going to bite your rant. So I made this very pale attempt so you wouldn't be disappointed.
06/22/2010 02:13:26 PM · #3
Originally posted by FireBird:

\
Since you indicate that all western nations have what you posted above, perhaps you can tell me how the Canadian government manages and owns the distrubution systems. And maybe you can tell me what part of the American free enterprise system is owned and managed by the government.


I find it amusing that frisca's attempt to give a concise definition of a word much used but rarely applied correctly is followed up by the use of such vague terms as "American free enterprise system" or "the distribution system" of Canada. If you are looking for an answer ask specific questions, using terms that actually have specific meanings. Are the interstate freeway system "part of the American free enterprise system"? I know they are an example of the evils of socialism, along with rural electrification and public schools, but are those the sorts of thing you were asking about?
06/22/2010 02:21:58 PM · #4
Wasn't really looking for an answer at all, considering this was originally posted in Rant. I just didn't want Frisca to feel all lonely with her only post in the thread. I know better than have any kind of discussion with Frisca as she will take whatever side that is opposite to mine. I should have realized that some kind of hater would arrive and criticize anything posted in the thread. After all, it is the rant channel. As for my question about the distribution system of Canada, apparently you didn't read Frisca's original post. Or at the very least didn't think about what you read. (BTW I'm just trying out the "hater" word. I'm an old guy and wasn't trained in it's use. From what I gather in context, a "hater" is anyone who argues with, or disagrees with one. Hope no one takes offense.)
06/22/2010 02:38:38 PM · #5
So, no narrowing of terms, no explorations of ideas, simply the assertion that I am a "hater" who didn't read frisca's post. Like much of political discussion I see in the world today, I see no interest in moving towards a common understanding, not responding to questions, more comfortable in drawing lines in the sand, delineating who is on what side, rather than trying to get at the truth.

The reason I responded to you post was that I did read both of your posts, hers I understood yours, I did not. I asked for clarification, I see that will not be forth coming. No offense taken, just a bit disappointed, but I'm getting used to that.
06/22/2010 02:41:43 PM · #6
Originally posted by FireBird:

And maybe you can tell me what part of the American free enterprise system is owned and managed by the government.


Kind of a meaningless question; if it's owned and managed by the government, it's not part of the free enterprise system.

R.
06/22/2010 02:46:19 PM · #7
Originally posted by FireBird:

perhaps you can tell me how the Canadian government manages and owns the distrubution systems. And maybe you can tell me what part of the American free enterprise system is owned and managed by the government.

You are falsely interjecting the term "free enterprise," which wasn't part of Frisca's post and would exclude government entities by definition (what Bear said). All western nations, including Europe, do have some form of government ownership and management of the means of production and distribution of goods. As an example, the distribution of goods depends on government managed highways, airspace, railroads, waterways, ports and customs.

In Canada, examples of corporations owned and/or managed by the government include the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Bank of Canada, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and Air Canada before it underwent privatization. In the U.S., government owned/managed enterprises include Amtrak, TVA, Corporation for Public Broadcasting, FDIC, the National Park Service, FBI, FDA, EPA, FTC, USPS, NSF, NTSB, SBA, SEC, CDC, NASA, NOAA, FHWA, Peace Corps, customs, lotteries...

Message edited by author 2010-06-22 14:47:18.
06/22/2010 02:55:20 PM · #8
Canada Post (the post office) is also a crown corporation (government owned). Also, in Ontario, the government owns the LCBO (liquor store) and Beer Store (beer store), as well as TVOntario (public broadcasting station).
06/22/2010 02:59:24 PM · #9
Originally posted by Louis:

Also, in Ontario, the government owns the LCBO (liquor store) and Beer Store (beer store)...

The manufacture and distribution of liquor is also controlled by the government in Pennsylvania.
06/22/2010 03:06:13 PM · #10
I don't think there is a line where you can say we are or aren't socialist. It's a scale, it's a matter of being more or less socialist.

Our current govt doesn't think we are socialist enough. Some people think we are too socialist already. The trick is finding what works with govt control and what doesn't.
06/22/2010 03:24:21 PM · #11
Originally posted by LoudDog:

I don't think there is a line where you can say we are or aren't socialist. It's a scale, it's a matter of being more or less socialist.

I think the point of the OP was to counter the "Keep your government hands off my Medicare" sort of ignorance and hypocrisy regarding the term.
06/22/2010 04:13:33 PM · #12
I wasn't trying to rant, I was trying to give information that may be useful. I don't try to be contrary, Firebird, at least, I am not out to say the opposite of whatever you say, and it would have been ok if no one cared that I posted this thread.

That said, Scalvert gave great examples of "socialist" enterprises in Canada, and I'm sure you can think of a few in the US, including highways and criminal law.
06/22/2010 06:19:40 PM · #13
As an aside, can I just point out that Europe is not 'a nation'; it is a continent made up of many nations.
06/22/2010 06:54:28 PM · #14
Originally posted by SaraR:

As an aside, can I just point out that Europe is not 'a nation'; it is a continent made up of many nations.


I'm pretty sure most of us know at least that! ;) I referenced Europe only to include its nations as part of the "west"

Message edited by author 2010-06-22 18:54:43.
06/22/2010 08:03:15 PM · #15
Originally posted by FireBird:

Originally posted by frisca:


socialism
socialism is the general term for the political and economic theory that advocates a system of collective or government ownership and management of the means of production and distribution of goods. Pam's note: all western nations, including Europe, have this in some form already and have had it for many many years.



Since you indicate that all western nations have what you posted above, perhaps you can tell me how the Canadian government manages and owns the distrubution systems. And maybe you can tell me what part of the American free enterprise system is owned and managed by the government.

Walt's Note: Just looked like no one was going to bite your rant. So I made this very pale attempt so you wouldn't be disappointed.


Here are a couple examples for you.

By the way, the first example of socialized medicine in the United States was an Act "For the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen," establishing the national Marine Hospital Service. It was funded by a tax withheld from sailors' pay, and was signed into law by President John Adams in 1798.

~Terry
06/22/2010 08:23:33 PM · #16
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by FireBird:

Originally posted by frisca:


socialism
socialism is the general term for the political and economic theory that advocates a system of collective or government ownership and management of the means of production and distribution of goods. Pam's note: all western nations, including Europe, have this in some form already and have had it for many many years.



Since you indicate that all western nations have what you posted above, perhaps you can tell me how the Canadian government manages and owns the distrubution systems. And maybe you can tell me what part of the American free enterprise system is owned and managed by the government.

Walt's Note: Just looked like no one was going to bite your rant. So I made this very pale attempt so you wouldn't be disappointed.


Here are a couple examples for you.

By the way, the first example of socialized medicine in the United States was an Act "For the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen," establishing the national Marine Hospital Service. It was funded by a tax withheld from sailors' pay, and was signed into law by President John Adams in 1798.

~Terry

Isn't the US military sort of a socialized system within a system?

Loans, insurance, medical covberage, educational grants (GI Bill) and various other things that are freely available to members of the military and their families?
06/22/2010 09:49:33 PM · #17
The US government doesn't own squat. 'We The People' own everything the government thinks it owns. The government may have control of certain things, control which was taken with or without the people's consent, but it doesn't own anything.

IMHO, that's one of the biggest problems with government in the US today. A lot of greedy power-hungry politicians and bureaucrats think they own everything and can do whatever the hell they wish. However, it's only the apathy of the majority of Americans that lets them get away with their schemes and agendas. If enough Americans get together and decide something has to change, then it will be changed. We could even replace that foreigner schmuck currently in the oval office.

BTW, America is not a socialist country, no matter what you pathetic liberal ignorami may wish.
06/22/2010 09:51:01 PM · #18
popcorn_beer.gif
06/22/2010 09:55:15 PM · #19
Originally posted by Mick:


BTW, America is not a socialist country, no matter what you pathetic liberal ignorami may wish.


I rather like origami...:O)

Ray
06/22/2010 09:57:01 PM · #20
Originally posted by RayEthier:

I rather like origami...:O)

Ray

An invention of liberal, bureaucratic paper pushers. :P
06/22/2010 10:10:47 PM · #21
Originally posted by Mick:

We could even replace that foreigner schmuck currently in the oval office.


Always nice to see touch of intellectualism on DPC.
06/22/2010 10:54:59 PM · #22
Originally posted by Mick:

, no matter what you pathetic liberal ignorami may wish.


"No one in this world, so far as I know...has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people," HL Mencken

If you are worried about a powerful foreigner taking over America, turn off Fox news and just say no to Mr Murdock. he has done damage to your critical thinking ability, you even use the phrases he has implanted in your brain."schemes and agendas" indeed.
06/22/2010 11:01:48 PM · #23
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by Mick:

, no matter what you pathetic liberal ignorami may wish.


"No one in this world, so far as I know...has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people," HL Mencken

If you are worried about a powerful foreigner taking over America, turn off Fox news and just say no to Mr Murdock. he has done damage to your critical thinking ability, you even use the phrases he has implanted in your brain."schemes and agendas" indeed.


I suspect it runs much deeper than that. There ought to be a prosthesis for stupid.
06/22/2010 11:12:33 PM · #24
Originally posted by yanko:

There ought to be a prosthesis for stupid.


Beautiful man! I'm going to make that my signature.

:-D
06/22/2010 11:59:06 PM · #25
Originally posted by Louis:

Canada Post (the post office) is also a crown corporation (government owned). Also, in Ontario, the government owns the LCBO (liquor store) and Beer Store (beer store), as well as TVOntario (public broadcasting station).


Almost... Beer Store is owned by the Brewers (used to be called Brewer's Retail). ETA: Labatt, Molson and Sleeman to be precise.

But, other additions:
Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corp
I think parts of the Hydro companies
Enersource (owned partially by Mississauga).

Message edited by author 2010-06-22 23:59:42.
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