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06/16/2004 12:22:07 PM · #51
Would a picture of a flower meet the waiting challenge? You could say it's waiting for a butterfly, or waiting to be picked and given to someone's girlfriend... That's pretty obvious isn't it?

If you need the title to make the photo meet the challenge, it probably won't score well. The challenge of this site is to take a picture that says the theme, not use a title to make a picture match a theme.

If you simply want to submit the best photo you took each week, you should join a site with open weekly challenges. This site gives you a particular theme and challenges you to take a picture matching that theme. This site also tells voters to take meeting that theme in the photo (not just the title) into consideration when voting.

If you do not like the fact that you need to take a picture based on the challenge, or you do not like that your picture needs to clearly meet the challenge to score well, you are obviously on the wrong site.
06/16/2004 12:29:32 PM · #52
Originally posted by jonpink:

I am becomming increasingly aware that this site is now more about meeting the challenge in a basic or obvious way rather than just decent photography.

Not a bad thing, not a good thing.


Show me a bad photo that clearly met the challenge in a basic or obvious way and scored well. I have yet to see a bad photo score well or end up in the top 10. There have been photo's I didn't like that have done well, but never a bad photo.

The photo needs to meet the challenge and be a good photo. One or the other isn't going to do well.
06/16/2004 01:42:55 PM · #53
Originally posted by MotoCycleBoi:

Subtle, humor, imagination and different ideas are things that do not always score high on this site.


I agree with you on that :-).
06/16/2004 01:59:47 PM · #54
I understood the waiting part of the picture. Of course, I have been in the position of sailing above the earth with my inline laden feet not having contact with the ground (I, however, had no control of where I was going to land). For me, I was waiting to hit the ground. So, I think the point of whether people got it or not has to do with their personal experience.

Yes, I can see how it meets the challenge. Yes, it was a stretch. When you stretch the challenge, your score usually shows it. Whether you feel it is right or wrong is almost irrelevant. If a person feels that the picture is a complete miss of the topic, that is their opinion, and they are not ignorant/stupid/unenlightened/[insert favorite adjective here], necessarily, that is just their opinion.

(OFF TOPIC) I think having almost identical shots in 1 and 3 shows a consistency on the voters part, more than anything.
06/16/2004 02:47:33 PM · #55
Looked at it again. Gave it a five the first time. and would give it a five again. IMO while an image such as this can leave the viewer with a subtle feeling of waiting I think other shots capture the theme better. I am new to DPC and probably dont have the experience that you do after 75 challenges, but I would like to know how the effects were achieved. I am not too sure I think they improve the shot.( another way of saying I was not crazy about the shot.) The degree of waiting to me is important. I dont think the skater was "waiting" for gravity as much as he was starting to fall back to terra firma. I am an avid skier and when i start to point my skis downhill I know the moment when I start to feel the pull of gravity but I cant say I am waiting to start my descent. For what its worth I do get the feeling of your being put off by the results. Not to sure its justified. By the way my review of your other shots leaves me knowing how accomplished you are. Ijust like your other work much more than this entry.
06/16/2004 02:55:08 PM · #56
Originally posted by bod:

If you discuss the situation then maybe 'this audience' will start to change.

Or maybe you will just be perceived as trying to channel the voters to your own way of thinking about tastes, styles and limits of "meeting the challenge".


Originally posted by Imagineer:

the person chose to ride up the ramp and so became involved in the process of cause and effect

But the pic didn't show the skater waiting to ride up the ramp, chosing the right moment when there was no wind, or he had the attention of observers, or when the photographer was ready. The pic shows a "brief moment in time" at which point the skater has no control over when the next event will occur, he cannot chose when gravity will pull him back down to earth, he cannot wait for the perfect time to descend.

06/16/2004 03:21:32 PM · #57
Entering an action photo (okay, a STOP action photo) into a challenge on WAITING (pretty much the opposite of action to most people), and then wondering why people don't get it, borders on the incredulous. Is the shot of the golfer at the end of his backswing an illustration of waiting? Hardly, and neither is this one.
06/16/2004 03:42:09 PM · #58
It just reminds me of cartoons. How many times have you seen Wile E Coyote go over a cliff or get shot into the air, then have the time (when he stops at the apex) to hold up a YIPES! or NOT AGAIN! sign. This reminds me of that. And you get that feeling, especially if you have expereinced it before like others hae mentioned.
And with a golfer at the end of his backswing, I can see watiing...observers waiting to see where it goes, waiting for that SMACK or a whiff or chunking it.

Message edited by author 2004-06-16 15:44:17.
06/16/2004 03:44:48 PM · #59
Just how do you wait for gravity? It is there all the time.

Sure, you may interpret the world as you see fit. As do I. And at the end of the day, I gave it the score I believe it deserved.
06/16/2004 03:50:23 PM · #60
Originally posted by ogdenm:

Just how do you wait for gravity?

I... erm... think you wait for it like this!

Anyway - who said anything about choosing to wait? Some valid points previously though (by people who don't like my shot). Trouble is, they all smell of poo.

:D
06/16/2004 03:52:53 PM · #61
Now if only they had called the challenge 'Hanging'
06/16/2004 03:54:11 PM · #62
Originally posted by ogdenm:

Just how do you wait for gravity? It is there all the time.

Sure, you may interpret the world as you see fit. As do I. And at the end of the day, I gave it the score I believe it deserved.

How do you wait for time? It is always there. That type of argument can be given to all the photos. Baby is always there. Fish is always there. Sunset is always there (in some part of the world). Get it.
06/16/2004 03:54:14 PM · #63
Originally posted by coolhar:

Originally posted by bod:

If you discuss the situation then maybe 'this audience' will start to change.

Or maybe you will just be perceived as trying to channel the voters to your own way of thinking about tastes, styles and limits of "meeting the challenge".

Indeed, as will the people who argue that every shot should be as obvious as possible. The point remains, we are free to air our views as we see fit, and shouldn't be told not to by those who happen to disagree.
06/16/2004 03:58:56 PM · #64
Originally posted by Imagineer:

Originally posted by ogdenm:

Just how do you wait for gravity?

I... erm... think you wait for it like this!

Anyway - who said anything about choosing to wait? Some valid points previously though (by people who don't like my shot). Trouble is, they all smell of poo.

:D


This comes after you said earlier in the thread: "I have invited discussion but have not insulted anyone personally." Could it be your definition of "insult" differs from most, just as your interpretation of Waiting differs from most? I dunno, saying that the comments of people who don't like your shot "smell of poo" is rather insulting. <<shrug>>
06/16/2004 04:02:13 PM · #65
I think the intention was more, "Waiting for the force of gravity to overtake momentum." I still think it's a major stretch. You can 'attach' the idea of waiting for something to any shot (a photo of a cat could be waiting for dinner, waiting for catnip, waiting to take over the world, waiting for a bath, waiting to eat one of Jacko's bugs, waiting to change the litter box, or even waiting for me to stop taking so many damn pictures). Without some sort of context or expression to suggest that this is indeed what the subject is thinking, it just looks like an excuse to shoehorn an off-topic photo into the challenge. Unless the photo itself can actually "communicate a sense of waiting for something," you're just waiting for a low score.

Message edited by author 2004-06-16 16:09:58.
06/16/2004 04:33:29 PM · #66
bob lobster somewhere here said, why have challenge topics at all: well how about as a STARTING point for imagination, not the killer of it. I would rather see a creative interpretation of a challenge topic that is a stretch over a bad photo that is dead on any day.
Lets give each other a break a little to be creative on topic and be more concerned with is it a good photo.

My question is are we on dpc to be good photographers or good challenge meeters?

I want to be proud of the shots I take I would rather throw my mark ii in the ocean than use is to take a boring photo just cuz it meets the topic... I don't care if my average is 2.2
thanks imagineer, for bringing up this topic.
06/16/2004 04:36:08 PM · #67
Originally posted by ellamay:

bob lobster somewhere here said, why have challenge topics at all: well how about as a STARTING point for imagination, not the killer of it. I would rather see a creative interpretation of a challenge topic that is a stretch over a bad photo that is dead on any day.
Lets give each other a break a little to be creative on topic and be more concerned with is it a good photo.

My question is are we on dpc to be good photographers or good challenge meeters?

I want to be proud of the shots I take I would rather throw my mark ii in the ocean than use is to take a boring photo just cuz it meets the topic... I don't care if my average is 2.2
thanks imagineer, for bringing up this topic.


I see where you're coming from, but this is DP CHALLENGE... the whole point is that it is really difficult to come up with a creative way of meeting the topic while impresing the voters... that's the challenge part of it!
06/16/2004 04:36:53 PM · #68
Before the challenge was voted on most of us knew that some subjects would rate more highly than others. Fishing, waiting at a bus stop, staring love sick out the window ( with the optional tear trailing down cheek which no one went with ) all CLEARLY convey waiting, and surprise surprise did quite well.

My shot was of a wading bird, as were three other submissions, probably because those of us who try to shoot the bloody things know how long they stand stock still while staring into the water for a fish to shimmy by. They did less well than the above mentioned images because fewer people know how long these birds wait for thier prey. To those who don't know the behavior of these birds it does not clearly convey waiting.

Although I enjoy shooting boarders, and I though your shot was well done (gave it a six) it lost points because it did not clearly convey waiting. While it can be argued that time dialates at the peak of hang time and that every moment waits for the next, this is parsing the words to such a fine degree that you know you are at the edge of the definition. Remove the title of this shot and think of the opposite of the "waiting" challenge, say "movement" or "action"; could the shot be entered in that challenge? I would say yes, and that you would have to argue a lot less to get people to see your point.

Voters on this site may not all be the best of juries, but Rutherford, a British physicist of the 30's once put it " Any theory you can't explain to a bartender isn't much of a theroy".

06/16/2004 04:48:54 PM · #69
I think photographers meet the challenge, I think imagineer did...in his way. I have often met challenges IMO, even if voters did not think I met it narrowly enough. Just because the viewer only sees it being met narrowly, doesn't mean photographer did not meet it.
06/16/2004 05:02:03 PM · #70
Originally posted by blindjustice:

great shot- but did anyone notice that the first place and third place winners are essentially the same shot?


Yes. In fact during the voting I thought perhaps they were taken at the same place perhaps by a couple, or a couple of friends. I haven't looked at the info on the photos yet so I have no idea.
06/16/2004 05:03:23 PM · #71
The title of this thread is "Why so many confused?"

I'd like to call your attention to another photo that says "Waiting" much less (for me) - than this one (Hangin).

//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=82141

Were the voters confused on it too? Many comments said it does NOT indicate Waiting - yet it was an exceptional photo. Guess what - it finished in 8th place -proving to me that voters generally "do the right thing."

Another difference between the two images - there's no huge discussion on the other one not meeting the challenge.


06/16/2004 05:11:51 PM · #72
Originally posted by photom:

The title of this thread is "Why so many confused?"

I'd like to call your attention to another photo that says "Waiting" much less (for me) - than this one (Hangin).

//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=82141

Were the voters confused on it too? Many comments said it does NOT indicate Waiting - yet it was an exceptional photo. Guess what - it finished in 8th place -proving to me that voters generally "do the right thing."

Another difference between the two images - there's no huge discussion on the other one not meeting the challenge.


Good point :-)
06/16/2004 05:40:52 PM · #73
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:

Originally posted by photom:

The title of this thread is "Why so many confused?"

I'd like to call your attention to another photo that says "Waiting" much less (for me) - than this one (Hangin).

//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=82141

Were the voters confused on it too? Many comments said it does NOT indicate Waiting - yet it was an exceptional photo. Guess what - it finished in 8th place -proving to me that voters generally "do the right thing."

Another difference between the two images - there's no huge discussion on the other one not meeting the challenge.


Good point :-)


LOL! That was a photo that for me did not indicate waiting. She had obviously been playing out in the rain to be so soaked so it didn't appear to me she was waiting for anything.

I disagree with the person who said that waiting implies something we have control over. I don't recall the exact wording and that comment was a few pages ago. Often, we are waiting for something we have very little control over. When we are waiting for a concert to begin we don't have any control over when the band is ready to come out. When we are waiting for a plane to arrive we are not in control of that plane. That argument makes little sense. In any case, as an argument against Imagineer's photo meeting the challenge it doesn't work because the skater does have some control over when and where he will land, if he is any good. If I understand correctly, in competition, part of the challenge is to really grab some air. It takes skill and practice to achieve the height. Once it is done once, it can likely be done again.

That said, while I liked that photo, and I'm very appreciative that Jon didn't call it "Waiting for Gravity", it didn't really convey a sense of waiting to me. Outside the truly obvious photos, this involves a personal reaction to the shot and I don't think it is neccessarily a lack of vision on the viewer's part. I gave the photographer a bit of the benefit of the doubt and scored it a 5. If I felt more of a sense of waiting from the shot I probably would have given it a 6. Sports shots of flying humans, cars, and motorcycles just ain't my thing in the long run, after seeing so many on this site.

After reading this thread I can see how it conveys a sense of anticipation. In any sporting event involving bodies flying through space, there is a certain breath-holding moment while the viewer's wait for the body to land. It is an eyeblink moment but it is still waiting. I was approaching waiting from a quieter perspective is all. After that, one must decide whether anticipation, expectation are the same thing as waiting. Both those words describe waiting in a more active, lively way. Maybe this would have been a more interesting challenge had it been called, "Anticipation" or "Expectation". I guess I see waiting as a rather passive verb so I went into the challenge with quieter things in mind.

My own photo, conveyed a sense of waiting to me and my husband but obviously not to many others.Still, when I look at it ,it seems to me as if the bench is there, waiting for the next person to come along and sit down (when it dries off a bit...;-D). I anthropomorphized (sp?) the bench, I realize. I refused to put waiting in the title. I figure either you get it or you don't. If a lot of people don't, that doesn't invalidate it for the people who do. As it is, I got a decent number of higher votes.

6 35
7 17
8 15
9 4
10 2

I got the most number of fours I think I've ever gotten so far, at 84 votes. I got a nice comment from a great photographer so I'm pretty pleased. I've come to the conclusion that I can either pander to the popular vote or just interpret the challenges the way I like and expect to score low.

I sympathise with Jon's (Imagineer's) frustration, and anyone else who consistantly approaches the challenge from a less obvious perspective. One want to push boundaries yet still be appreciated. I don't think these discussions are fruitless if they get voter's thinking outside their own sphere of experience for a few minutes.

My problem with the folks who seem to only approach voting from the perspective of meeting the challenge is that they tend to say little else about the photo, as if meeting the challenge is all there is to the purpose of this site. In the end, we want feedback for our pictures. So go ahead and say it doesn't meet the challenge and vote how you see fit but also say something about the photo itself. It won't kill ya.

06/16/2004 05:49:35 PM · #74
photom - that's a great shot, but reliant wholly on its title for this challenge. I bet if you asked people what theme they felt the image represented that 'waiting' would not be high on the list.

If she was really waiting for the sun she'd have been shot cowering under shelter with the rain pounding in front of her preventing her having fun. But, because it's a cutesy, smooth, perfect little shot it scored high. Simple.
06/16/2004 05:59:28 PM · #75
Well we all see the world with our own eyes...
When I see the "Waiting for the sun" shot I see more of a "Dad how long must I wait in this cold sprinkler before you get your Waiting for the sun shot?"
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