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12/06/2008 01:18:54 AM · #1 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
130,000 jobs created to date despite the 70000 lost.
Most of the 70000 lost are in Ontario's manufacturing sector which does most of its business with the US.
It is not entirely the feds that need to get involved here. What is the Ontario government doing? Are they willing to work with the feds? |
Yep. Ontario announced they'll go it alone if they have to due to the Parliamentary "crisis", and they've started drawing up plans and crunching numbers.
I obviously don't agree with your assessment of the Coalition. Did you know that the three parties put forward ideas for a coming budget, as asked by the PM before the economic update, and all ideas were rejected out of hand? Do you call that cooperating, or running a successful minority Parliament? Power grab schmower schmab. What do you with an immovable object like Mr. Harper? You turf him. |
We'll find out in January whether the ideas for the budget were rejected or not since that's when it's scheduled. |
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12/05/2008 09:49:33 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
130,000 jobs created to date despite the 70000 lost.
Most of the 70000 lost are in Ontario's manufacturing sector which does most of its business with the US.
It is not entirely the feds that need to get involved here. What is the Ontario government doing? Are they willing to work with the feds? |
Yep. Ontario announced they'll go it alone if they have to due to the Parliamentary "crisis", and they've started drawing up plans and crunching numbers.
I obviously don't agree with your assessment of the Coalition. Did you know that the three parties put forward ideas for a coming budget, as asked by the PM before the economic update, and all ideas were rejected out of hand? Do you call that cooperating, or running a successful minority Parliament? Power grab schmower schmab. What do you with an immovable object like Mr. Harper? You turf him. |
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12/05/2008 06:34:52 PM · #3 |
130,000 jobs created to date despite the 70000 lost.
Most of the 70000 lost are in Ontario's manufacturing sector which does most of its business with the US.
It is not entirely the feds that need to get involved here. What is the Ontario government doing? Are they willing to work with the feds? Based on previous attempts by the feds the answer is no. Why not? Only Dalton McGinty can answer that. My guess is the federal government has the wrong stripes. Put party politics aside and get on with it.
What happens in the next few weeks with respect to the conservatives and the opposition parties will tell us what the real intent of the opposition is, get on with dealing with the issues or keep the government distracted with quibling over who gets to be Prime Minister.
It's obvious that the opposition never had any intention of letting the conservatives get on with governing. That was shown when removing the items that were complained about made no difference.
Yes, Harper dealt with it badly. So the opposition doesn't agree with the governing party's approach to the problem. So what. Figure out a way to work in compromises and get on with it. They complain about Harper's my way or the highway attitude but what of the opposition?
They're all the same. In this case the coalition is just an attempt at a power grab.
The wait and see at the moment is related to the US auto industry bailout. What happens here depends on what happens there. |
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12/05/2008 06:15:38 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by Louis:
More than 70,000 jobs lost in November.. In October, there were 9,000 personal and business bankruptcies, 9% more than the previous month, 21% more than the previous October. If the government's reaction to this is "wait and see", they're nuts. We could have a coalition government on Monday ready to take this issue on. Instead, we get to wait until February for a vote on the budget. Thank you, Mr. Harper, for taking our economic situation so seriously. |
It's already old, not even front page news anymore. We're in Canada, it's going to take a hockey and beer strike to get us off our arses and do something about our government. Let's hope that Harper has learned from this and that his pompous attitude will change for the better because of it.
What else can we do except wait it out. You can bet that the budget will include some candy, for who, is another question though. |
Most likely some kind of "Credit credit" check. "Here's $100 for everyone of legal credit card age in Canada to help pay off your Holiday debt."
Followed by "The Conservatives love us!" |
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12/05/2008 05:57:23 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Louis:
More than 70,000 jobs lost in November.. In October, there were 9,000 personal and business bankruptcies, 9% more than the previous month, 21% more than the previous October. If the government's reaction to this is "wait and see", they're nuts. We could have a coalition government on Monday ready to take this issue on. Instead, we get to wait until February for a vote on the budget. Thank you, Mr. Harper, for taking our economic situation so seriously. |
It's already old, not even front page news anymore. We're in Canada, it's going to take a hockey and beer strike to get us off our arses and do something about our government. Let's hope that Harper has learned from this and that his pompous attitude will change for the better because of it.
What else can we do except wait it out. You can bet that the budget will include some candy, for who, is another question though. |
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12/05/2008 12:57:34 PM · #6 |
| More than 70,000 jobs lost in November.. In October, there were 9,000 personal and business bankruptcies, 9% more than the previous month, 21% more than the previous October. If the government's reaction to this is "wait and see", they're nuts. We could have a coalition government on Monday ready to take this issue on. Instead, we get to wait until February for a vote on the budget. Thank you, Mr. Harper, for taking our economic situation so seriously. |
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12/05/2008 12:16:55 AM · #7 |
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12/04/2008 07:30:49 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Jac:
Job growth is up again, productivity is up again, every thing is OK... |
Jac, are you kidding? Show me some stats, buddy. |
My job is cut from 5 to 2 days per week now, due to the economy. I took out a second mortgage to get by. We'll be OK for five or six months, then we won't. That will be accelerated if my job goes away completely. From where I'm sitting, the economy sucks major ass. |
What's Dalton McGinty doing about it? |
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12/04/2008 07:09:06 PM · #9 |
I'm sorry to hear that Slippy, don't know what you work in but I hope things turn around.
Louis,
I'm not saying the economy isn't going to have problems sometime in the future but to sound the alarm like the coalition has been doing is overzealous and reeks of power grab. They could have waited until the budget, this would have made it look more planned out and it would have given them an air of legitimacy, rather than the vultures they look like now. Funny, vultures wait until their meal is dead, they don't ever kill it themselves.
Was there a crisis before the economic update report? Canada's economy was doing ok and the government was doing what seemed to be the right thing at the time, by waiting six weeks for further evidence there actually was an economic downturn and our economy would suffer. Nothing wrong with that under those circumstances and seeing the budget was due near that date, it sounded like the right course of action, seeing there was no emergency or even a perceived threat, at that point.
Stats, here's a link to some stats that aren't spelling out disaster to me at all. Of course some sectors that have been mentioned above are not doing well but they're directly attached to exports to the US like the auto industry and it's suppliers.
Economic indicators Lots more info on that site.
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12/04/2008 06:09:21 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Qart:
//www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=a7vpdAIcY3Yc&refer=canada
Just one source. Let's talk about what's going on, not what the fear mongers want to have you believe. |
Sure. From that article:
"[Canada's] economy will expand at a 0.6 percent pace this year and next, the slowest since the last recession in 1991-92, the Bank of Canada said Oct. 23. 'Canada was hanging in there better than most economies' in the quarter, said Doug Porter, an economist with BMO Capital Markets in Toronto. Still, 'with the U.S. economy breaking quickly, it’s hard to see Canada avoiding a recession.'"
Yep. "Everything's ok," as Jac said. Please.
Hardly the end of the world and hardly enough to prompt a non confidence full scale attack. Would expect numbers to be far worse than these to cause such a stir since this fact is what the coalition claim is the nudge they needed... or more acurately they were laying in wait for.
Originally posted by Qart:
Harper has lied... unusual for a politician I know... but the biggest assholes (the Three Amigos) are the ones that are trying to scare the public into believing that the sky is falling and they're the only ones that can save us. |
Um, no. They're trying to tell you that in our Parliamentary democracy, a coalition that will be guaranteed support and confidence in the House by a majority is a bona fide government according to our constitution. The only asshole shrieking about the sky falling is Harper, who manufactured this crisis so that his party wouldn't have to face defeat by a vote of confidence in the House, a vote he knew he was going to lose. Why is is that so many constitutional scholars are saying that the de facto result here is that Harper is simply running away from such a vote? Turn on the TV to hear them.
Sorry but the CBC is hardly the place to get unbiased info. :) Most reports and comentary are having trouble getting past the optics of this. Interesting observation made today by some political scholar... wish I could remeber his name... anyway he said that Bob Ray will go down in history as one of the only politicians who destroyed his career twice in two seperate eras. Afraid I have to agree. Time will tell.
Originally posted by Qart:
In the long run they'll do more damage to our economy with their fear mongering that the North American auto industry. |
Yeah, that's right. Asking to form a constitutionally sound government comprised of members voted for by 62% of Canadians is fear mongering.
You forgot to mention that the 62% were divided between 3 parties that despise each other and in one case the country they belong to.
Originally posted by Qart:
Oh loooook... Toyota just opened a new plant in Ontario today. How'd that happen? I hear it was quite an event. I wonder who'll get the roughly 1200 jobs. |
And how long has that been in the works? And you think that's a sign that everything's just peachy, or that the economy will somehow simply chug along with Harper and his Cons smiling fixedly from the sidelines? Think those 1,200 jobs will offset the 2,000 jobs lost in manufacturing in London, Ontario alone? |
My point was more about how some auto builders can expand while others scream for a bailout, but yes 1200 jobs says something considering this is just one company and one example.
Bob Ray huh... You kill me. |
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12/04/2008 05:18:28 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Louis:
Duceppe ... He's the best politician on the scene, aside from Bob Rae.
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Louis, please tell me this is a typo. Are you talking about the same Bob Rae whose party almost brought the province of Ontario to ruination. |
That's the one. |
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12/04/2008 05:16:43 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Qart:
//www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=a7vpdAIcY3Yc&refer=canada
Just one source. Let's talk about what's going on, not what the fear mongers want to have you believe. |
Sure. From that article:
"[Canada's] economy will expand at a 0.6 percent pace this year and next, the slowest since the last recession in 1991-92, the Bank of Canada said Oct. 23. 'Canada was hanging in there better than most economies' in the quarter, said Doug Porter, an economist with BMO Capital Markets in Toronto. Still, 'with the U.S. economy breaking quickly, it’s hard to see Canada avoiding a recession.'"
Yep. "Everything's ok," as Jac said. Please.
Originally posted by Qart:
Harper has lied... unusual for a politician I know... but the biggest assholes (the Three Amigos) are the ones that are trying to scare the public into believing that the sky is falling and they're the only ones that can save us. |
Um, no. They're trying to tell you that in our Parliamentary democracy, a coalition that will be guaranteed support and confidence in the House by a majority is a bona fide government according to our constitution. The only asshole shrieking about the sky falling is Harper, who manufactured this crisis so that his party wouldn't have to face defeat by a vote of confidence in the House, a vote he knew he was going to lose. Why is is that so many constitutional scholars are saying that the de facto result here is that Harper is simply running away from such a vote? Turn on the TV to hear them.
Originally posted by Qart:
In the long run they'll do more damage to our economy with their fear mongering that the North American auto industry. |
Yeah, that's right. Asking to form a constitutionally sound government comprised of members voted for by 62% of Canadians is fear mongering.
Originally posted by Qart:
Oh loooook... Toyota just opened a new plant in Ontario today. How'd that happen? I hear it was quite an event. I wonder who'll get the roughly 1200 jobs. |
And how long has that been in the works? And you think that's a sign that everything's just peachy, or that the economy will somehow simply chug along with Harper and his Cons smiling fixedly from the sidelines? Think those 1,200 jobs will offset the 2,000 jobs lost in manufacturing in London, Ontario alone? |
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12/04/2008 03:43:12 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Duceppe ... He's the best politician on the scene, aside from Bob Rae.
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Louis, please tell me this is a typo. Are you talking about the same Bob Rae whose party almost brought the province of Ontario to ruination.
Ray |
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12/04/2008 03:36:13 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Job growth is up again, productivity is up again, every thing is OK... |
Jac, are you kidding? Show me some stats, buddy. [/quote]
//www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=a7vpdAIcY3Yc&refer=canada
Just one source. Let's talk about what's going on, not what the fear mongers want to have you believe. Sure the big three are suffering and they're dragging down some good supply and support companies with them but they did it to themselves.
Harper has lied... unusual for a politician I know... but the biggest assholes (the Three Amigos) are the ones that are trying to scare the public into believing that the sky is falling and they're the only ones that can save us. In the long run they'll do more damage to our economy with their fear mongering that the North American auto industry.
Oh loooook... Toyota just opened a new plant in Ontario today. How'd that happen? I hear it was quite an event. I wonder who'll get the roughly 1200 jobs.
Message edited by author 2008-12-04 15:39:53. |
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12/04/2008 02:03:19 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Jac:
Job growth is up again, productivity is up again, every thing is OK... |
Jac, are you kidding? Show me some stats, buddy. |
My job is cut from 5 to 2 days per week now, due to the economy. I took out a second mortgage to get by. We'll be OK for five or six months, then we won't. That will be accelerated if my job goes away completely. From where I'm sitting, the economy sucks major ass.
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12/04/2008 01:47:55 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Louis, it may not have ever been done but now it's being done with a party that has an open policy of not wanting to be a part of Canada, that's where this whole thing becomes a circus and cannot be taken seriously. |
Why? The Bloc are signatories to an agreement that simply says they won't vote against confidence votes put forward by the Coalition until 2010. What could be wrong with that? The government will actually work for a year and a half minimum. Or have you bought into the Conservative lies that the Bloc is simply waiting to blackmail their way into separation? Nonsense. Nothing that has been suggested by the Coalition was not suggested by Harper himself in 1996, 2000, and 2004. The man is a degenerate liar. That anyone would believe anything he says at this point is fairly shocking.
Originally posted by Jac:
I can't let my government be run by a party that sits with separatists just because it benefits their current power grab. |
How about if it benefits running the country in a sound, bipartisan way?
Originally posted by Jac:
Imagine, I live in Quebec and I'm appalled at the idea so can you imagine how the rest of Canada feels right now? |
The majority, 51%, want Harper out. You're a minority in Quebec; most are absolutely appalled at Harper's banana republic style of politicking. Is this Zimbabwe, or Canada? (Are you Francophone or Anglophone? Most Francophones are more furious at Harper than they are suspicious of the Coalition, it seems to me.)
Originally posted by Jac:
Only winners in this I see is Gilles Duceppe and Stephan Dion, two wannabees that will never ever get a taste of power except through coalitions based on media perceptions that things are going bad economically in Canada. |
Tell that to the people who've lost their manufacturing jobs in the last two months. C'mon, Jac. There's a global economic crisis that Canada is part of. Incidentally, if you watched the Leader debates, you'll know that Duceppe has no false ideas about being in power. He's the least disingenuous of all the party leaders. If I could vote for him, I would. He'd make a great Prime Minister but for the fact that he's a sovereigntist. He's the best politician on the scene, aside from Bob Rae.
Originally posted by Jac:
Do you think we could have waited until Jan for a budget and financial stimulus for Canada as it stands today economically? |
Sure. It would take that long for the Coalition to deliver a budget anyway.
Originally posted by Jac:
Job growth is up again, productivity is up again, every thing is OK... |
Jac, are you kidding? Show me some stats, buddy.
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12/04/2008 11:28:22 AM · #17 |
Thanks for the invite Slip but...
Roots are deeply planted here although if my two sons end up leaving here I just may follow, but that's for another day...if ever. Who would we shoot first? :) |
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12/04/2008 10:20:26 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Jac:
..... Imagine, I live in Quebec and I'm appalled at the idea so can you imagine how the rest of Canada feels right now? ..... |
I'm fine with Quebec separating. |
I most definitely am not! |
You could come & live in Burlington. We could hang out & shoot together...
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12/04/2008 10:17:22 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Jac:
..... Imagine, I live in Quebec and I'm appalled at the idea so can you imagine how the rest of Canada feels right now? ..... |
I'm fine with Quebec separating. |
I most definitely am not! |
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12/04/2008 10:13:42 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by Jac:
..... Imagine, I live in Quebec and I'm appalled at the idea so can you imagine how the rest of Canada feels right now? ..... |
I'm fine with Quebec separating.
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12/04/2008 10:08:38 AM · #21 |
I hope the GG shuts it down. This is just plain wrong for Canada at this current time. My nose tells me this is not good for Canada and may put us in a place we do not want to be in.
If I were a Bloc supporter I would be claiming victory. They're getting power IN Canada, something I don't think they planned on. Thank you Mr Dion and Mr Layton. You are giving Canada what IT DOESN'T WANT. from coast to coast.
A shameful situation, to say the least. |
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12/04/2008 09:36:05 AM · #22 |
My impression of the coalition is that this has been the plan all along so it didn't matter what the outcome of the election was. By hook or by crook, a minority government was going to be defeated.
Concessions were made regarding what the opposition was complaining about. However, since the real plan was to bring down the government that didn't matter. How the conservatives were handling the economy -- believe it or not they were doing things just on a proactive basis rather than a reactive one -- just not the way the opposition thought was the right way.
Having said that, Harper has shot himself in the foot (possibly more than once). Just take a look at how he's walking.
Harper should be meeting with the GG at this very moment so we can just sit and wait for the outcome of that and go from there. If she does allow Harper to halt parliament until late January, maybe both sides will learn something and the budget presented will reflect a bit of what both the conservatives and the opposition want. I kind of doubt it but let's be a little bit optimistic. :o/
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12/03/2008 11:40:26 PM · #23 |
Louis, it may not have ever been done but now it's being done with a party that has an open policy of not wanting to be a part of Canada, that's where this whole thing becomes a circus and cannot be taken seriously. I can't let my government be run by a party that sits with separatists just because it benefits their current power grab. Imagine, I live in Quebec and I'm appalled at the idea so can you imagine how the rest of Canada feels right now? Only winners in this I see is Gilles Duceppe and Stephan Dion, two wannabees that will never ever get a taste of power except through coalitions based on media perceptions that things are going bad economically in Canada.
Do you think we could have waited until Jan for a budget and financial stimulus for Canada as it stands today economically? I hope your answer is yes, so why all the fuss about how bad we need stimuli? How many Canadians are losing their homes? Same as last year and the year before... Job growth is up again, productivity is up again, every thing is OK but not according to the dooms day naysayers that comprise our opposition parties. Harper is an ass and deserves to be replaced by his own party members, not the opposition. That would cement his fate and he would wander off into the setting sun to where Joe Clark is still trying to convince people he was once PM. Or at least trying to convince himself it wasn't a dream. ;]
Message edited by author 2008-12-03 23:41:44. |
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12/03/2008 11:18:27 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
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... can't say that I am. If indeed the general populace had wanted either the Liberals or the NDP in power, then I remain confident that one of these parties would have won. |
But a majority of the general populace did want the Liberals or NDP in power, Ray. And in parliamentary democracy, it's the right of the Opposition to defeat the government and offer an alternative based on a coalition, something many of our more shrill compatriots seem to be mistaking for a "coup d'état". It's a shame so many are so ignorant about the way their own government works.
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I may not be a big fan to Mr. Harper, but the fact remains that he did win the election, and gained more seats in the process. |
...but with less of the popular vote this time, interestingly enough. He does not have a majority. If he refuses to govern like a sane person, he should have the courage to face the House, not run in fear of being defeated in a confidence vote. There is reason not to like him, and his bullying of the House and the other parties as though he were a watered down version of Hugo Chavez or Robert Mugabe is the best reason.
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Sorry, but if we truly want to hear the voice of the population, then let's have an election... and then we will truly know what the Canadian populace wants. |
No thanks. I don't have the stomach for ten elections in ten years that essentially returns the same results, irrespective of the winning party. If the Liberals are elected in a minority, the Conservatives would hardly have the credibility to form a coalition if they are whining about coalition governments now. If the Conservatives win, it's a foolish waste of money that nets the exact same result.
I get the sense people don't like the idea of a coalition simply because it hasn't been done in Canada in recent memory. This is our form of government. In a country where we now have five major political parties, an election result turning out a minority government is all but guaranteed. You'd better get used to the idea of coalition governments. Despite Harper's disingenuous yapping about the subversion of democracy -- a disgusting lie, an insult to anyone who's ever taken high school history lessons -- coalition governments are the future for this country. |
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12/03/2008 06:55:58 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Eyesup:
even if the 'coalition' is formed, I couldn't see it lasting very long (certainly not past the Liberal leadership convention) |
In their talks to forge the coalition, the parties are fundamentally agreeing that it will govern for a minimum of two and a half years, and they'll have the seats to make it so. I understand that so long as a government is comprised of parties with different ideologies, the government is in a kind of flux, but I don't believe the opposition parties are as cynical and duplicitous as the Conservatives. |
Actually only 18 months. That's the term the Bloc has given that they will support the Liberals and NDP then they will renegotiate.
ETA: My impression of Dion through the whole signing process. I can picture him saying...
"I get to be Prime Minister. I get to be Prime Minister." -- said while jumping up and down with glee trying not to grin.
ETA: The Bloc could bring it down at any time since they can veto anything put forward if they feel it is detrimental to Quebec.
Message edited by author 2008-12-03 19:34:05. |
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