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11/25/2008 09:43:49 PM · #1 |
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11/25/2008 04:11:29 PM · #2 |
Counter Article for refutation. I really hate when words, like statistics, are used to push an agenda that is not related to the original words or statistics.
Some info from the article...
"Church membership was very low (less than 30 percent) among the citizens of the various colonies during the period between the First and Second Great Awakenings."
"George Washington, though he did not sign the Declaration, was a member of the Episcopal Church in Virginia, but he was known by his closest friends and his minister as a person who was not a communicant (received Lord's Supper) and more a Deist in his personal religious views. Deists perused the Bible more as a source of morals while discounting its miracles, inspiration, and teachings concerning salvation."
"This quote is wrong in all particulars. The Continental Congress did not found the American Bible Society. The Society was not founded until 1816, twenty-seven years after the Continental Congress ceased to exist."
On the Patrick Henry Quote: "This quotation is accurate in that Henry spoke these words, but the quote lacks proper ellipses, and thus gives the impression that his speech was more religious in nature rather than interspersed with general religious notions typical of political speeches of the time. Henry's entire speech can be examined at the website: //www.quoteworld.org/docs/phgiv328.php."
See, anyone can take stuff out of context and show that it means whatever they want it to. Of course, some are better than others...
All in all, a very interesting refutation of Mary Jones and her bible thumping web site...
Sorry - just had to add this:
Jefferson: "I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma [sic] of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the compre-hension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature...."
Seems Jefferson was anti-Christian but pro-Jesus. hmmm....
Message edited by author 2008-11-25 16:17:27. |
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11/25/2008 03:44:11 PM · #3 |
| Bad news. God Bless America was written by a Jew. All this time, the Jewish God has been blessing us, sans Christ. |
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11/25/2008 02:34:48 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Most of what you read in this article has been erased from our textbooks. Revisionists have rewritten history to remove the truth about our country's Christian roots. |
It is hardly breaking news that in W. Europe and N. America 200 years, religion was an important part of everyday life and Christianity dominated.
The truly impressive thing was that progressive thinkers such as Jefferson managed to import the concept of freedom of religion and separation of church and state so effectively into the constitutions of, first, Virginia, then the US. These were the first instances of this in the world, and are part of the foundations of modern political philosophy. It was a truly remarkable feat.
Sadly, the preeminence of intellectualism within the US is diminishing and unthinking prejudice is once again afoot. Almost alone among modern Western democracies, advances in education have not been allied with a reduction in religiosity in the US. The things that I admire most about the US are being diminished as a result.
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11/25/2008 01:57:40 PM · #5 |
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11/25/2008 01:34:41 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
America's real history starts with the genocide and displacement of millions of Native Americans and was build on the backs of slavery.
Don't be ignorant. |
Careful - you are speaking of my (native - most likely Iroquis) ancestry there. Please feel free to right this wrong and leave - so that we can go back to killing and enslaving our own - via our traditions.
Please enlighten me (so that I won't be ignorant), of any peoples through early history that have not engaged in the practice of conquering and enslaving the conquered. I seem to be at a loss of recollecting exceptions to this historic fact. Your implication is that we (America) are to be dispised due to our history. At least be consistent and dispise every government or War Chief that ruled - after conquering another. |
Do you still ascribe to this Neolithic way of thinking? |
Are you claiming that this method does not exist today? Like Rawanda or Darfur or a host of other tribal run areas on the Globe. Are the 800,000 slaves trafficked worldwide not evidence of this? Is America's conquering of the natives the only example in history? No? Well then my point has been made. And where did the slaves originate from that MadMordegon referenced when denigrating America? And who enslaved them initially - those evil americans or their neighboring tribesmen? So again I state, if you are going to demonize America for conquering a people, at least be consistent and demonize every like act accross the globe and throughout history. |
For one thing, all he was doing was counter-pointing the original post. He was in no way denigrating America of today. Just making it clear that America's history isn't all happy bells and lollipops and christian wonderful. You take the good, you take the bad.
For another, not all Native American tribes were conquerors, killers, and slavers, and some were only forced into war tribes because of the European invasions, so your inference that native americans would all go back to that is a little ridiculous.
Yes, humanity was built on the fact that we conquer each other and take lands, and no we shouldn't have to spend our lives apologizing and living in the past and never moving forward because of horrors that took place long ago, but we shouldn't also entirely forget it or fail to learn from the mistakes of the past.
While the people who started America were probably very religious, they were also trying to escape religious persecution, and were striving to build a better land, but much of the time, they went about it very badly, made a lot of mistakes, and killed a lot of innocent natives while doing so. That is a truth of the past, and shouldn't be ignored when discussing anything to do with the roots of the land. |
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11/25/2008 01:19:54 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
America's real history starts with the genocide and displacement of millions of Native Americans and was build on the backs of slavery.
Don't be ignorant. |
Careful - you are speaking of my (native - most likely Iroquis) ancestry there. Please feel free to right this wrong and leave - so that we can go back to killing and enslaving our own - via our traditions.
Please enlighten me (so that I won't be ignorant), of any peoples through early history that have not engaged in the practice of conquering and enslaving the conquered. I seem to be at a loss of recollecting exceptions to this historic fact. Your implication is that we (America) are to be dispised due to our history. At least be consistent and dispise every government or War Chief that ruled - after conquering another. |
Do you still ascribe to this Neolithic way of thinking? |
Are you claiming that this method does not exist today? Like Rawanda or Darfur or a host of other tribal run areas on the Globe. Are the 800,000 slaves trafficked worldwide not evidence of this? Is America's conquering of the natives the only example in history? No? Well then my point has been made. And where did the slaves originate from that MadMordegon referenced when denigrating America? And who enslaved them initially - those evil americans or their neighboring tribesmen? So again I state, if you are going to demonize America for conquering a people, at least be consistent and demonize every like act accross the globe and throughout history. |
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11/25/2008 12:09:56 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Welcome back to the conversation... jump in Jac, Flash.
Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-P |
LOL I don't blame ya. :) |
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11/25/2008 11:59:44 AM · #9 |
Welcome back to the conversation... jump in Jac, Flash.
Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-P |
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11/25/2008 11:32:18 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
America's real history starts with the genocide and displacement of millions of Native Americans and was build on the backs of slavery.
Don't be ignorant. |
Careful - you are speaking of my (native - most likely Iroquis) ancestry there. Please feel free to right this wrong and leave - so that we can go back to killing and enslaving our own - via our traditions.
Please enlighten me (so that I won't be ignorant), of any peoples through early history that have not engaged in the practice of conquering and enslaving the conquered. I seem to be at a loss of recollecting exceptions to this historic fact. Your implication is that we (America) are to be dispised due to our history. At least be consistent and dispise every government or War Chief that ruled - after conquering another. |
Do you still ascribe to this Neolithic way of thinking? |
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11/25/2008 11:01:36 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
America's real history starts with the genocide and displacement of millions of Native Americans and was build on the backs of slavery.
Don't be ignorant. |
Careful - you are speaking of my (native - most likely Iroquis) ancestry there. Please feel free to right this wrong and leave - so that we can go back to killing and enslaving our own - via our traditions.
Please enlighten me (so that I won't be ignorant), of any peoples through early history that have not engaged in the practice of conquering and enslaving the conquered. I seem to be at a loss of recollecting exceptions to this historic fact. Your implication is that we (America) are to be dispised due to our history. At least be consistent and dispise every government or War Chief that ruled - after conquering another. |
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11/25/2008 10:07:04 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
America's real history starts with the genocide and displacement of millions of Native Americans and was build on the backs of slavery.
Don't be ignorant. |
What are you doing spreading truth around like it was fact. sheesh! ;) |
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11/25/2008 10:05:16 AM · #13 |
America's real history starts with the genocide and displacement of millions of Native Americans and was build on the backs of slavery.
Don't be ignorant. |
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11/25/2008 12:15:39 AM · #14 |
| Oops. I stand way corrected about the alleged Christianity of the founding fathers. (Old age, dim memory). Nice work, posters. |
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11/24/2008 11:51:39 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Was George Washington a Christian? Consider these words from his personal prayer book: 'Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the lamb and purge my heart by the Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in thy fear, and dying in thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of thy son, Jesus Christ.' |
According to Frank Grizzard (senior associate editor of the George Washington Papers collection at University of Virginia), in a correspondence with Ed Brayton of the blog Dispatches from the Culture Wars, the Washington prayer book, while not necessarily a fraud, is not in Washington’s handwriting and didn’t reflect Washington’s other known writings with regard to religious belief.
Writes Brayton:
When I first came across these claims I emailed Frank Grizzard, a historian who specializes in the life of George Washington and the editor of the Washington collection at the University of Virginia. He said the journal was absolutely not from Washington, and in a 2005 book he showed handwriting samples showing that the handwriting ni (sic) the journal did not match Washington's at all.
Apparently, the handwritten prayer book was found in a trunk of Washington’s relatives heirlooms. (I’m writing this next part from memory, so may be off in details.) At that time, the current owner, looking at a possible business opportunity, sent the book for verification to the Smithsonian Institute. Washington experts at the Smithsonian informed the owner of the prayer book was not in Washington’s handwriting and had most likely been written by one of his relatives. The seller, not wanting the truth get in the way of a good sale, ignored the news from the Smithsonian and sold the prayer book as having been written by Washington anyway.
Message edited by author 2008-11-24 23:53:40. |
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11/24/2008 10:14:49 PM · #16 |
Mary Jones
It seems the present day MJ is on a mission from god. Maybe she has been reborn? |
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11/24/2008 09:22:06 PM · #17 |
Just to throw something totally random into this thread....I'm related to John Quincy Adams (not very closely, but he is listed in our genealogy (along with John Alden, Priscilla Mullins, several French Kings and a couple of Norse Kings). At least that's what I've seen in the Official "Wert" history.
You can all go back to your .... whatever now. *grin* |
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11/24/2008 08:55:02 PM · #18 |
If you want to claim revisionist history, look no further than the letter you posted.
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." - Thomas Jefferson
"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses." - John Quincy Adams
"We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition ... In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States." - George Washington (That prayer book quote is bogus. Washington never mentioned Christ in his writings aside from one poem penned as a child). |
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11/24/2008 08:41:20 PM · #19 |
I find nothing noxious in the quotes. And there is no reason not to ponder them. True I have been suspected of being a bible thumper, something I am also willing to ponder.
I seem to remember that the English philosopher John Locke was called upon to help establish the principles of government, and it was his belief that God was in some way necessary to guarantee them. There were not that many people roaming about the Eastern US at that time who were not Christians, although indeed there were Portugese Jews who predated the Pilgrim fathers, Native people with their own beliefs and practices, and likely a number of Muslims among people of African descent. And yet among the Christians there were vast differences: some came to escape persecution in England, what is now Germany, and Russia; others, mostly Anglicans and Catholics, had lesser persecution issues, if any. And even among these groups there were some sore divisions the Orthodox Quakers and the Hicksite Quakers; Roger Williams broke from the Pilgrims to found Rhode Island on the basis of religious freedom. I think it safe to say that most of the founding fathers, for all that they were believers, were sensitive to these matters, and their intention was not to impose belief and teaching and practice, but to reflect their belief.
Possibly a slight difference. Or even a deceptive one? But I rather hope it is a real one, and that for all I may rue the nation's children being deprived of even reading a very interesting and historically significant book In School, no one has thereby been prevented from living his or her life as he or she believes God sees fit for her or him to do. |
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11/24/2008 08:36:35 PM · #20 |
(edited to change boring article into interesting quotes without putting this tripe of a thread back at the top of the list)
Not sure exactly what the OP was trying to say, but I have a pretty good guess. In the style/form of the OP I offer this rebuttal:
The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion
(article by Jim Walker here)
Jim Walker's article is great, but here are some of the founders in their own words:
Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
-The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)
George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
-George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)
John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
-The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.
Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
-Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.
James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
-The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.
Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
-Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)
Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
-Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.
Message edited by author 2008-11-24 21:01:35. |
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11/24/2008 08:22:28 PM · #21 |
Who cares?
A lot of things happened in the past. It doesn't make them correct and it doesn't make them relevant to the modern day. In retrospect, many have been realized to have been bad ideas, or at least well out of vogue.
And just because something was back then is a lousy reason to keep doing it today.
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11/24/2008 08:09:37 PM · #22 |
Why ask God to Bless the US indeed?
A pointless exercise really, you might as well ask the refrigerator for forgiveness and eternal life. Actually asking an appliance might be better since the refrigerator actually exists and it'll keep your beer cold.
Message edited by author 2008-11-24 20:11:50. |
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11/24/2008 08:01:45 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Would you do this in real life? Would you walk into any gathering, and start in? I know the anonymity of the internet lessens inhibitions, but that is not necessarily a good thing. If the answer was no, then it is not a good idea to do it here. If it was yes, then... I think I'd probably wander to another room.
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Judging from the profile he's been in this room for six years. So is suspect he knew the hate this post would rouse. |
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11/24/2008 07:58:09 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
I'm just wondering what the point is (or if there IS one). |
To establish the quickest route to rant. |
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11/24/2008 07:54:47 PM · #25 |
(David Ey) + (Long Post) = (Religious Stuff)
:-)
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