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05/30/2008 10:56:39 PM · #1 |
| Yeah, I get the idea: 2 clicks and move on. |
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05/30/2008 10:46:52 PM · #2 |
| 1. doesn't suit my taste 2 does suit my taste 3 heard of the rule of thirds 4 dnmc in my opinion 5 i don't get what your saying with this photo 6 out of focus in my opinion 7 too dark 8 too lite 9 too much like a snapshot 10 comp not pleasing well you get the idea i think if a good list like this could be made up of the most common high and low points it would be much simpler for the voters--2 clicks and move on.? |
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05/30/2008 04:07:21 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by rider:
there is always so much talk about voting and comments--- perhaps if it was simpler to comment---say a selection of 10 standard comments listed more people would comment and more people would be satisfied? |
I hope this is a joke. If not, I'm looking forward to a suggestion for the list of "standard comments". |
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05/30/2008 12:10:35 AM · #4 |
| there is always so much talk about voting and comments--- perhaps if it was simpler to comment---say a selection of 10 standard comments listed more people would comment and more people would be satisfied? |
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05/29/2008 02:09:48 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by yospiff:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
The voting scale is 1-10. We need to be free to use that scale as fits each individual photo in each individual challenge as long as we stay within the rules. |
I agree, however I would ask anyone who has cared enough about this subject to be involved in this thread, to please try and leave a comment on the shots you vote poorly. The photographer probably thinks it great and gets frustrated when it comes in at a 4.5 or so. I've actually decided it is more important to comment on the 4's and 5's for this reason. The clearly great ones and obviously poor ones will likely get other comments, but the guy who ends up with a 4.5 to a 5.5 want to know why. |
Agreed |
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05/29/2008 02:07:08 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Originally posted by Citadel:
In some ways, I'd like to limit the number of ones, twos, nines and tens we can give in a challenge. Realistically 10% of the entries can't be ones (Or tens). I'd say maybe 1%. So if you have a challenge with 300 entries you can hand out 3 ones and 3 tens. Then maybe 9 votes allowed for twos and nines. (it could also be a fixed number)
Again, we're not going to get rid of the ones and twos. What we can do is dilute them a bit and make them a little easier to swallow. |
But then we're forcing a comparative scale. If you choose to vote that way that's fine as long as you're consistant, but I prefer to vote each shot on its own particular merits.
I've never given out such high scores as I did on the boat challenge. Out of 160 votes there are ten 9's and thirty-three 8's, while only six got 4 or less. Why should any of those be forced to take a lower score than I think they've earned, just because I've used up my allotment of votes for that number?
Conversely, there have been challenges with a greater than normal number of entries that don't deserve high scores, usually because they either didn't bother to read the challenge description or because it was a technical challenge and they didn't bother learning what it meant. Should they automatically receive a higher score, while those who did put in the extra homework are held down?
The voting scale is 1-10. We need to be free to use that scale as fits each individual photo in each individual challenge as long as we stay within the rules. |
I totally agree. That's why I started with in some ways. (I knocked out the line saying that "Who am I tell people how to vote?") Dang.
I do like the idea of increasing the voting requirement to get a few more votes though.
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05/29/2008 02:06:26 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
The voting scale is 1-10. We need to be free to use that scale as fits each individual photo in each individual challenge as long as we stay within the rules. |
I agree, however I would ask anyone who has cared enough about this subject to be involved in this thread, to please try and leave a comment on the shots you vote poorly. The photographer probably thinks it great and gets frustrated when it comes in at a 4.5 or so. I've actually decided it is more important to comment on the 4's and 5's for this reason. The clearly great ones and obviously poor ones will likely get other comments, but the guy who ends up with a 4.5 to a 5.5 want to know why. |
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05/29/2008 01:56:09 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
In some ways, I'd like to limit the number of ones, twos, nines and tens we can give in a challenge. Realistically 10% of the entries can't be ones (Or tens). I'd say maybe 1%. So if you have a challenge with 300 entries you can hand out 3 ones and 3 tens. Then maybe 9 votes allowed for twos and nines. (it could also be a fixed number)
Again, we're not going to get rid of the ones and twos. What we can do is dilute them a bit and make them a little easier to swallow. |
But then we're forcing a comparative scale. If you choose to vote that way that's fine as long as you're consistant, but I prefer to vote each shot on its own particular merits.
I've never given out such high scores as I did on the boat challenge. Out of 160 votes there are ten 9's and thirty-three 8's, while only six got 4 or less. Why should any of those be forced to take a lower score than I think they've earned, just because I've used up my allotment of votes for that number?
Conversely, there have been challenges with a greater than normal number of entries that don't deserve high scores, usually because they either didn't bother to read the challenge description or because it was a technical challenge and they didn't bother learning what it meant. Should they automatically receive a higher score, while those who did put in the extra homework are held down?
The voting scale is 1-10. We need to be free to use that scale as fits each individual photo in each individual challenge as long as we stay within the rules.
Message edited by author 2008-05-29 13:57:13. |
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05/29/2008 01:01:22 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Would you rate an excellent photo of a pile of dog poo the same as an excellent photo of model? |
No; most probably.
I agree like/dislike tempers my vote but I could see myself voting higher on an excellent pile of dog poo than a poor photo of a model, which I think explains threads in the forum where an explanation is demanded to justify a vote of '2' for Snookums. To get more realistic, I would tend to vote a higher score, given equal 'goodness' in my estimation, to a color photo than a B&W. My bias. But it still boils down to being able to make the initial distinction between good/bad and that is done through rules.
In my view, there are three major fields of knowledge required for a successful photograph. The first, in order of importance, is a knowledge of the rules. Anyone who has watched new people come to photography has to admit that even just the one basic 'rule of thirds' will improve their work tremendously. The second is ability with the camera. Do you 'Grok' what's going on. Can you get the results you want? Consistently? And thirdly, you need to be able to output the results in some fashion. I am much more inclined to overlook Photoshop short comings than compositional ones (Perhaps because Photoshop is one of my weaknesses, which is why I'm here.)
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05/29/2008 12:52:57 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by yospiff:
My personal theory on this is that some people vote with a scale of BAD <---> GOOD, while others vote using a scale of DISLIKE <---> LIKE. Those who lean toward the latter scale will give low votes to good photos that they simply don't care for.
That oversimplifying it, of course, as most of us are influenced in both regards. I may not give a 9 to a shot that does not personally appeal to me, but I will try to recognize good work with a decent vote. For instance, many photos done by  biteme have a macabre feel that I don't personally care for. However, they are good photos and I don't think I've ever given a shot of hers less than a 6. |
Thank you! |
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05/29/2008 12:43:45 PM · #11 |
In some ways, I'd like to limit the number of ones, twos, nines and tens we can give in a challenge. Realistically 10% of the entries can't be ones (Or tens). I'd say maybe 1%. So if you have a challenge with 300 entries you can hand out 3 ones and 3 tens. Then maybe 9 votes allowed for twos and nines. (it could also be a fixed number)
Just another idea to throw out there. Maybe increase the requirement for voting from 20% to 25%. That would mean more votes. Yes, potentially it would also mean more voting on the extreme ends however it would give a broader cross section of voters and therefore give more accurate results.
And a third point - I think we are all in a agreement that we have different tastes and different voting styles. I'd like to point out that the number of ones and twos an entry gets even when its a poor image is quite low relatively speaking.
Again, we're not going to get rid of the ones and twos. What we can do is dilute them a bit and make them a little easier to swallow.
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05/29/2008 12:42:08 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Frankly, anybody who hands out 1s and 10s regularly are not voting on the photo's merits but rather on something else entirely (ex. a personal bias, perceived DNMC, the spouse is giving you crap, you're in a good mood, you're trying to cheat, this looks like so and so's and I hate/love that person's work, etc, etc.)
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That describes my voting style, A to Z.
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05/29/2008 12:36:51 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
So then we knock off 2 and 9, then 3 & 8, then 4 & 7, leaving 5 and 6. Nobody can complain when everyone ends up with a 5.5, right? |
how about a "yes" and "no" button
the photo works
or it doesn't
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05/29/2008 12:17:26 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Well, I vote BAD <--> GOOD, but I do temper it by LIKE <---> DISLIKE. A great photo of a disagreeable subject will get lower marks than a great photo of an agreeable subject.
Would you rate an excellent photo of a pile of dog poo the same as an excellent photo of model? |
Notice I qualified my broad statement by saying it was oversimplifying. I was trying to isolate a potential element that may make some people vote lower on good entries.
I would certainly vote the model higher. But If it were a good picture of dog poo, I would not give it a 1 simply because I don't like dog poo. Maybe we need a "gross" challenge? |
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05/29/2008 12:09:10 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by rider:
Would you rate an excellent photo of a pile of dog poo the same as an excellent photo of model?
in a dog poo challenge the poo would get the nod, though if the model was a nude it might get saved!--lol
that is something that gets missed quite often when people discuess scores---i try to pick a best and a worst shot for each challenge and let everything else fall where it may i give a lot of 6's because i think most people here are above the average--but it seems to me that the average vote by the masses are 4's |
If we have a dog poo challenge, then I'm afraid DPC will have jumped the shark. :)
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05/29/2008 12:04:38 PM · #16 |
Would you rate an excellent photo of a pile of dog poo the same as an excellent photo of model?
in a dog poo challenge the poo would get the nod, though if the model was a nude it might get saved!--lol
that is something that gets missed quite often when people discuess scores---i try to pick a best and a worst shot for each challenge and let everything else fall where it may i give a lot of 6's because i think most people here are above the average--but it seems to me that the average vote by the masses are 4's
Message edited by author 2008-05-29 12:08:23. |
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05/29/2008 11:52:59 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by dsray:
Originally posted by yospiff:
My personal theory on this is that some people vote with a scale of BAD <---> GOOD, while others vote using a scale of DISLIKE <---> LIKE. Those who lean toward the latter scale will give low votes to good photos that they simply don't care for.
That oversimplifying it, of course, as most of us are influenced in both regards. I may not give a 9 to a shot that does not personally appeal to me, but I will try to recognize good work with a decent vote. For instance, many photos done by biteme have a macabre feel that I don't personally care for. However, they are good photos and I don't think I've ever given a shot of hers less than a 6. |
This, I believe, is the crux of the matter. I would go a step further and suggest it is in part due to a lack of formal art education. Doesn't mean you have to like everything you see. Change the context: I hated John Elway and I liked nothing better than Joe Montanna kicking his butt, but I was in awe of his talent! Someone with no sports knowledge would have no basis for an opinion outside of pretty colors or nice padding.
Same with art. I don't care much for Ansel Adams but I love Helmut Newton. |
Well, I vote BAD <--> GOOD, but I do temper it by LIKE <---> DISLIKE. A great photo of a disagreeable subject will get lower marks than a great photo of an agreeable subject.
Would you rate an excellent photo of a pile of dog poo the same as an excellent photo of model?
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05/29/2008 11:37:08 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by yospiff:
My personal theory on this is that some people vote with a scale of BAD <---> GOOD, while others vote using a scale of DISLIKE <---> LIKE. Those who lean toward the latter scale will give low votes to good photos that they simply don't care for.
That oversimplifying it, of course, as most of us are influenced in both regards. I may not give a 9 to a shot that does not personally appeal to me, but I will try to recognize good work with a decent vote. For instance, many photos done by biteme have a macabre feel that I don't personally care for. However, they are good photos and I don't think I've ever given a shot of hers less than a 6. |
This, I believe, is the crux of the matter. I would go a step further and suggest it is in part due to a lack of formal art education. Doesn't mean you have to like everything you see. Change the context: I hated John Elway and I liked nothing better than Joe Montanna kicking his butt, but I was in awe of his talent! Someone with no sports knowledge would have no basis for an opinion outside of pretty colors or nice padding.
Same with art. I don't care much for Ansel Adams but I love Helmut Newton.
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05/29/2008 08:20:57 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by pennyj1957:
Originally posted by bobnospum:
Does not have to be a troll. Imagine my surprise to see this photo on the front page as the winning photo for Movie Titles II.
1: 0 votes
2: 1 votes <---- My vote
3: 0 votes
4: 3 votes
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I still do not see the appeal, but I'll believe what the majority says. To me it was uninteresting subject and had a wierd patterns in the background that I found very distracting (especially in the lower right). The title also did not seem to match well with the photo.
My top 3 finished in 24th, 28th, and 88th places, so I had a poor voting correlation with everyone else on this challenge. Of course, my photos usually score towards the bottom, so what do I know about art :)
-Bob |
Bob,
Thanks for coming forward about your scoring on this photo. If this had been my photo and had rec'd the 1 it would have been great to have the comment left so that I knew the reason behind the score. Your reasons could maybe help someone make their photo even better. I really appreciate all the differences of opinions here at DPC. |
I guess I kind of agree and disagree. If I ever win a ribbon, I do not think I would really care about a few outliers giving me 1's, 2's, and 3's. I mean how often have you watched a movie with 4-5 friends and you loved and they thought it was stupid, or vice versa. Personal preference for a style or subject easily outwieghs technical merit in much of life, never mind DPC voting. I brew my own beer and have had to come to grips that many people would rather drink Bud Light than my latest IPA or Stout! That being said when you vote you have no idea if your low vote will be an outlier or agree with the majority. I try to comment on about 10-20% of the photos and skew the comments towards the lower end of my voting. I still comment on the ones I really like, as I could always be outlier in the positive direction as well and perhaps make someone happy. :) |
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05/29/2008 07:18:00 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by yospiff:
My personal theory on this is that some people vote with a scale of BAD <---> GOOD, while others vote using a scale of DISLIKE <---> LIKE. Those who lean toward the latter scale will give low votes to good photos that they simply don't care for.
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This is so true (and not only on DPC). A mediocre shot of a very pretty model will often be highly appreciated by the crowds, whereas a great shot of an average model will not recieve as much appreciation.
The (or some) proof will be in the outcomes of the male and female portrait challenges.
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05/29/2008 06:54:00 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Personally, I don't think many of the photos on DPC deserve all the 10's they get. I think some people just vote 10 for personal reasons just like the people who give out 1's - like they have some bias for or against the subject, etc. It might also be some people trying to cheat or recognizing a friend's image. I think a true measure of the ranking would occur if we just counted the votes from 2-9. |
Pseudosolution. The 2 would quickly become the new 1 and the 9 the new 10. And you have the same problem again. |
"Pseudosolution" is my middle name. |
Mine's Franklin. |
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05/29/2008 05:29:47 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Personally, I don't think many of the photos on DPC deserve all the 10's they get. I think some people just vote 10 for personal reasons just like the people who give out 1's - like they have some bias for or against the subject, etc. It might also be some people trying to cheat or recognizing a friend's image. I think a true measure of the ranking would occur if we just counted the votes from 2-9. |
Pseudosolution. The 2 would quickly become the new 1 and the 9 the new 10. And you have the same problem again. |
"Pseudosolution" is my middle name. |
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05/29/2008 04:47:23 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
So then we knock off 2 and 9, then 3 & 8, then 4 & 7, leaving 5 and 6. Nobody can complain when everyone ends up with a 5.5, right? |
Hehe, yes, this is where it would lead. Ribbons for everyone!
No, seriously: I think there are pictures that deserve 10s and also pictures that should get 1s. However, they are both rare. Numbers in the middle should be given more frequently than those at the extremes. It is clear that opinions and tastes vary, but it surprises me that most pictures get both 1s and 10s...
About "comparative scoring": I don't think that's a good idea. I rate each picture independent of its competition in the challenge. Sometimes I have several 10s in a challenge and sometimes there is none. If all entries are mediocre I don't see any reason to give a 10 to my favorite. And in a challenge like the current "Boats" one with a lot of wonderful entries, I won't hold back good ratings just because there are many very good submissions. |
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05/29/2008 04:24:48 AM · #24 |
| So then we knock off 2 and 9, then 3 & 8, then 4 & 7, leaving 5 and 6. Nobody can complain when everyone ends up with a 5.5, right? |
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05/29/2008 04:16:23 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Personally, I don't think many of the photos on DPC deserve all the 10's they get. I think some people just vote 10 for personal reasons just like the people who give out 1's - like they have some bias for or against the subject, etc. It might also be some people trying to cheat or recognizing a friend's image. I think a true measure of the ranking would occur if we just counted the votes from 2-9. |
Pseudosolution. The 2 would quickly become the new 1 and the 9 the new 10. And you have the same problem again. |
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