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05/25/2008 02:20:19 PM · #1 |
Well, spiritualspatula, I did ask if someone were arranging to have a kitten bar-b-que as, at that time, I didn't have any Memorial Day plans.
I was just looking for a party. |
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05/25/2008 07:39:26 AM · #2 |
| I don't have a problem with an actual discourse, and in fact would welcome it, I just think that establishing an online fan club for a real world fan club (Christianity) and a fan club to denounce the fan club of a fan club in turn, is asinine. There isn't discourse so much as "I'm Christian and Jesus Saved me!" or "I'm an atheist." That is what I think is stupid. I will admit that I hadn't read both threads in their entirety, but having read them now, it seems that my comment was even more on point than I had at first believed. Scalvert has pointed out how asinine it is to "carve out a private niche" on DPC for Christians. I understand this thread was formed in retaliation, and, on that note, is somewhat amusing in that it's a parody, but that doesn't change the fact that beyond the tongue in cheek creation, it has become exactly what the other was only with less proselytizing/"seed planting." Scalvert even commented on the divisiveness of such behavior, and specifically how having a separate thread and proclaiming how awesomely Christian you are is unnecessary, and furthermore explained an opposition to the atheist equivalent of the Christian thread. More to the intent of this thread, we might as well be back on the schoolground telling each other how stupid the other is and that my dad can beat up your dad. Or, better yet, we could all change our avatars/profile pictures to represent whatever sect/God we support and then we can really know who is respectable and who isn't. Once all the Christians adopt crosses, the atheists will adopt images of crossed out crosses! Or better yet, just a blank white or black image relating the lack thereof! Genius! This whole thread is behaving like the kid that didn't get picked in kickball so they tried to start their own game instead. Responding to stupid behavior with stupid behavior is stupid. Seriously. Also, I'm glad that I could add a rant to the rant section. I'm feeling at home already! Woo! |
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05/23/2008 12:10:35 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Oh, good... a thread where we can express our disbelief in the creator. As in, "I can't believe anyone found it necessary to create this thread in response to the other one." :-/ |
I'm glad some folks see both this (and the Christian thread as well) as childish and divisive. For a second there I was wondering if everybody on the site had lied about being over the age of 13... |
This is just too funny... I can only surmise that you haven't read thread in its entirety or are not all that familiar with Scalvert's position.
I for one cannot agree with your statement that the threads are childish as I find both of them rather informative and replete with well reasoned arguments.
Are they divise?... more than likely they are, but diviseness is not necessarily a bad thing as it elucidates the thought process of the differing viewpoints. It is only through earnest and intelligent discourse that we can ever hope to better understand the views of others.
Ray
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05/23/2008 09:32:40 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Oh, good... a thread where we can express our disbelief in the creator. As in, "I can't believe anyone found it necessary to create this thread in response to the other one." :-/ |
I'm glad some folks see both this (and the Christian thread as well) as childish and divisive. For a second there I was wondering if everybody on the site had lied about being over the age of 13... |
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05/19/2008 09:19:37 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by JMart:
Originally posted by Jac:
I'll pick it up when I see it before my vacation this summer. I plan on reading reading and reading during my 2 weeks of R&R. Thanks for sharing. |
Jac, you might want to order it ahead of time as it may need to be imported from the UK. I'll check this out over the summer as well (we teachers have TONS of time to read over the summer months ;P ) |
Jac, I found it at the Chapters on Richmond St. in Toronto... which of course is no help to you. :) But it is available in bookstores in Canada, though I do notice that amazon.ca says it's not yet available for some reason. Here it is at chapters.ca. |
There are some US resellers via Amazon but I haven't been able to find it locally. Oh well, don't mind having it shipped. |
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05/19/2008 08:16:55 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Originally posted by Jac:
I'll pick it up when I see it before my vacation this summer. I plan on reading reading and reading during my 2 weeks of R&R. Thanks for sharing. |
Jac, you might want to order it ahead of time as it may need to be imported from the UK. I'll check this out over the summer as well (we teachers have TONS of time to read over the summer months ;P ) |
Jac, I found it at the Chapters on Richmond St. in Toronto... which of course is no help to you. :) But it is available in bookstores in Canada, though I do notice that amazon.ca says it's not yet available for some reason. Here it is at chapters.ca. |
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05/19/2008 07:31:54 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Jac:
I'll pick it up when I see it before my vacation this summer. I plan on reading reading and reading during my 2 weeks of R&R. Thanks for sharing. |
Jac, you might want to order it ahead of time as it may need to be imported from the UK. I'll check this out over the summer as well (we teachers have TONS of time to read over the summer months ;P ) |
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05/19/2008 12:23:21 PM · #8 |
| I'll pick it up when I see it before my vacation this summer. I plan on reading reading and reading during my 2 weeks of R&R. Thanks for sharing. |
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05/19/2008 12:08:05 PM · #9 |
I've just begun reading Charles Freeman's AD 381: Heretics, Pagans, and the Christian State. Mostly I prefer history over polemics, and this book is about the loss of freedom of speech and free thought from the year 381, when the Christian Roman emperor Theodosius defined the orthodoxy of the state's religion in a decree that would have an impact on the west for about the following fourteen hundred years, and even to today.
I think it would behoove Christians to read about their history in this book. They may be comforted by the fact that Freeman considers himself a highly spiritual person, and in his preface, he has a go at Dawkins, calling him "simplistic", that he has no sense of emotion, that he engages in "frenzied denunciations". Though I think this dismissal is itself simplistic, the actual subject of the book is a great read, very approachable, and very exciting. This is history, not a polemic, so for those interested in this sort of thing, I think it's highly recommended.
Message edited by author 2008-05-19 12:10:13. |
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05/13/2008 12:52:29 PM · #10 |
Interesting article. He does dismiss orginized religions, including his own jewish faith, but it seems that he did believe in an intelligent being or disigner, just not one that answers prayers. |
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05/13/2008 12:26:46 PM · #11 |
Einstein thought religion "childish".
Message edited by author 2008-05-13 12:26:57. |
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05/12/2008 06:21:43 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Good points all, echoing very strongly the central theme of the Harris book. If by religion you mean faith, and by faith you mean belief without evidence -- belief that is by turns contradictory, self-referring (and self-perpetuating), and in any other realm of human experience simply mad -- then I think it must die out, for the sake of the species. If you're referring to a kind of extra-faith spirituality, then I, as Harris and others, think that it deserves investigation -- but not at the expense of evidence, scientific inquiry, or reason. |
I've been wanting to respond to this, but also needed some time to gather my own thoughts as my own impressions in this area are still forming. And I apologize in advance for the rambling nature of this post, which is a direct consequence of my own lack of solid conclusions in this area.
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I'm not talking about extra-faith spirituality in the Harris sense. I also think that this topic it is worth looking at scientifically, but must admit to being highly skeptical. (I found that section of Harris, and Dawkins's discussion of memes very odd and out of place in their arguments. These areas may be valid points of study, but in both cases the discussions were, in my opinion, unnecessary and ended up detracting and confusing their primary points.)
When I say that I don't see religion/faith dying out, I'm simply stating what I think to be a probable outcome, not what I would see as the most desirable outcome. But while I might want to see a point and time when the human species abandons faith (non-evidence based belief), I think that our evolutionary baggage makes this leap very improbable.
Science has recently been looking at the way the human brain handles dichotomy - mutually exclusive or contradictory belief. It turns out our brains don't have any problem with dichotomy, we humans have no difficulty holding multiple, conflicting beliefs at the same time. A hypothetical example of this might be the evolutionary biologist able to hold a firm belief in some form of supernatural god, while at the same time being completely aware and accepting of all evolutionary evidence for a materialistic "creation." This facility for dichotomous thinking is what I believe has allowed us to advance our physical understanding of the world, without having to abandon our inclination to supernatural belief. (It would also seem to be part of what prevents us from advancing our moral understandings as quickly as we seem to be able to advance our scientific knowledge.)
This inclination can only go so far, of course, before it begins to cause serious mental strain. As we learn more and more about the materialistic nature of things, certain dichotomies become increasingly sharp and increasingly difficult to hold. Even most devout believers in the modern world will not be able to sustain a belief in an earth-centered universe, for example, unless they completely close themselves off to the modern knowledge base of available information.
I think that as our materialist understanding increases this range of sustainable supernatural belief in opposition to scientific knowledge will necessarily have to contract -- barring, of course, theist success in achieving an actual rollback of human knowledge. Religion and faith in this conception may have to dwindle to pale imitations of its former self in years to come -- as I would argue it has already done in comparison to the religious faiths of history. Yet it seems likely to remain in some form.
If we ever manage to actually throw off this aspect our of humanity entirely, it may only come about when we are able and comfortable with taking control of our own evolutionary destiny. At that point, however, I'm not sure that we would still be "human" in the sense we think of now. It may be that our future fully rational selves - if the species can manage to not kill itself off before then - would be as dissimilar to us as we are to our primate ancestors and be looked upon as just as animalistic and simple-minded as we look upon chimpanzees now.
I guess, in the end, I would be happy if we could reduce faith-based thinking in humanity to a mere curiosity. A psychological coccyx, so to speak, the mental equivalent to our vestigial tail. Something to perhaps inspire us to certain forms of harmless ritual and vague spiritual palpitations, but that doesn't interfere with rational discourse in daily life as religion most definitely does now.
(Or, to paraphrase Grover Norquist - My goal is to reduce the inclination in humans for faith-based thinking to the point where we could drown it in a bathtub.) ;)
Message edited by author 2008-05-12 18:27:13. |
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05/12/2008 05:31:56 PM · #13 |
Can't have a trial without a defendant.
Gives a whole new meaning to the word absentia. |
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05/12/2008 05:28:54 PM · #14 |
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05/12/2008 05:23:40 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Jutilda:
Originally posted by redjulep:
I fall in the "spiritual but not religious" category. Definitely not Christian. |
Amen, Sistah!!!
I have faith: in mankind, in nature. I live as some would say is "christianlike" yet I am not doing it in the name of anyone or anything. I am living that life BECAUSE TO ME IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. I believe in energy, kharma. I believe in kindness and non-judgemental attitudes. I believe in gratitude and forgiveness. I find more "god" in the stillness of a forest or the smell of the rain, than any dogma or doctrine can preach along the way. |
That's my kinda church!! |
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05/12/2008 05:18:37 PM · #16 |
Classic! Ya gotta love the Onion, thanks Louis.
Edit to say I think the Israelites have a very strong case.
Message edited by author 2008-05-12 17:19:32. |
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05/12/2008 05:03:50 PM · #17 |
Israelites sue God for breach of covenant
Message edited by author 2008-05-12 17:04:07. |
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05/12/2008 10:00:14 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by redjulep:
I fall in the "spiritual but not religious" category. Definitely not Christian. |
Amen, Sistah!!!
I have faith: in mankind, in nature. I live as some would say is "christianlike" yet I am not doing it in the name of anyone or anything. I am living that life BECAUSE TO ME IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. I believe in energy, kharma. I believe in kindness and non-judgemental attitudes. I believe in gratitude and forgiveness. I find more "god" in the stillness of a forest or the smell of the rain, than any dogma or doctrine can preach along the way. |
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05/11/2008 02:10:04 PM · #19 |
| Thanks Shannon. Good article though not too precise about how the author of the book arrived at his conclusions. I'm going to pick it up if I see it locally. |
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05/11/2008 11:54:28 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by togtog:
I don't really think any of us will know until we know. :) |
An interesting proposition considering that once your brain ceases to function, you will no longer have the capacity to know or feel anything.
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Was your enlightenment a gradual conversion over a period of time or was it a sudden epiphany? Was there a mourning period, as if you lost a part of your identity, or did you feel pure elation to your new found truth, maybe a mixture of both at first. |
Probably about the same as when doubts over flying reindeer and elves producing "Made in China" toys eventually led to the conclusion that there is no Santa Claus (no matter how firm the convictions of my peers). No mourning, no guilt, and nothing taken away from those who continued to believe, but relief and personal satisfaction at finally "getting" what makes so much more sense in retrospect. I spent the last two weeks in ancient parts of Europe and as I sat in church yesterday (don't ask), I couldn't help but picture the scene as a Greek temple, with all that time and energy wasted on tributes to Zeus, etc.
An interesting article that might help explain such beliefs. |
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05/11/2008 10:20:27 AM · #21 |
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05/11/2008 01:25:18 AM · #22 |
Ah, yes. The benefits of proper education in the classics.
;)
Originally posted by Louis:
Think of your conception, you'll soon forget
what Plato puffs you up with, all that
"immortality" and "divine life" stuff.
"Man, why dost thou think of Heaven? Nay
consider thine origins in common clay"
is one way of putting it, but not near blunt enough.
Think of your father, sweating, drooling, drunk,
you, his spark of lust, his spurt of spunk.
-- Palladas of Alexandria |
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05/10/2008 09:37:18 PM · #23 |
Think of your conception, you'll soon forget
what Plato puffs you up with, all that
"immortality" and "divine life" stuff.
"Man, why dost thou think of Heaven? Nay
consider thine origins in common clay"
is one way of putting it, but not near blunt enough.
Think of your father, sweating, drooling, drunk,
you, his spark of lust, his spurt of spunk.
-- Palladas of Alexandria
Message edited by author 2008-05-10 21:40:47. |
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05/10/2008 02:32:05 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Another beautiful day.
A thought...
I'm so happy that this one particular sperm (cell) managed to squeak and sliver its way to another cell (egg) after coitus, and then managed to penetrate its outer shell to fertilize the egg. If it had been any other sperm among millions, I wouldn't be here writing this. Was it a miracle? No. It was physics. The only miracle was that my parents actually met and then got along together well enough to have married and then had sex.
Yes I have lots and lots of free time. ;-\ |
You have too much free time if you are pondering your parents sex life and your conception;) |
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05/10/2008 02:18:59 PM · #25 |
Another beautiful day.
A thought...
I'm so happy that this one particular sperm (cell) managed to squeak and sliver its way to another cell (egg) after coitus, and then managed to penetrate its outer shell to fertilize the egg. If it had been any other sperm among millions, I wouldn't be here writing this. Was it a miracle? No. It was physics. The only miracle was that my parents actually met and then got along together well enough to have married and then had sex.
Yes I have lots and lots of free time. ;-\
Edited to add:
THIS IS A JOKE
Just in case some don't get it.
Message edited by author 2008-05-10 15:23:13. |
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