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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> DQ - why wouldn't you request one?
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08/30/2007 08:46:59 PM · #1
Originally posted by JawnyRico:

There were a lot of comments removed from the SC, as they should have been. On my part and his.


NOTE: Only two comments on that image were removed. Neither was eschelar's.
08/22/2007 11:08:10 AM · #2
But one person requesting validation on your entry doesn't mean you'll actually receive the request...the entry must receive a certain number of SC votes before it ever comes to you. So even if you were the target of malicious requests (which I do not believe you were), you likely wouldn't see those unless a percentage of the SC felt there was any merit to the claim.
08/22/2007 11:02:58 AM · #3
Originally posted by mk:

Neither necessarily means we think you're lying.


That was not directed at SC. It was directed at whoever views the image with all the details right there and yet still decides to request validation. The previous request that came after the challenge ended was the Mama Woody shot which had a shot of the set-up used in the details until after the VR.

Oh, and with the Tree shot, I actually expected to get a VR during the challenge and was somewhat surprised when it did not happen. I figured someone would question the major element rule or the use of multiple exposures.

Message edited by author 2007-08-22 11:04:28.
08/22/2007 10:58:19 AM · #4
Your most recent image was initially sent through the validation process because there were a few questions about it and some of the SC voted to add a validation stamp to it. It looks like it didn't get enough votes to push it through the remainder of the process until recently but I'm not really sure why there was follow-up so late in the game. I think we can attribute that one to SC error.

I don't know what other image you're talking about without going through them all but images do sometimes get kicked through the queue after the challenge ends and we do sometimes request proof even when the details are posted. Neither necessarily means we think you're lying.
08/22/2007 10:38:35 AM · #5
Oh, sorry for the terminology.

So I guess someone took the request to heart. I am confused though. This is the 4th validation request I have received in the 80 some challenges I have entered. The first two were during the challenges. However the last two were more than a week after the challenge had ended. What confuses me about both of them is on the first one I had all the details of the shot - editing, set-up, etc. and even had a pic of the set-up in the pic details. That made no sense to me unless someone thought I was lying. The second happened yesterday and again more than a week after the challenge had ended and again all the details were in the pic description. So why is there a validation request made? Again, does someone think I am lying or something? Also, on the second it really baffles me as the shot did extremely poorly (what I expected).

I don't mind a 'VR' at all. The last two just don't make any sense to me is all.
08/15/2007 01:57:43 PM · #6
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Let everyone discussing Sheryll's shot take it to another thread and get this one back on topic.

DQ - why wouldn't you request one?

BTW, it's not a request for DQ, it's a request for validation. A DQ is the result of a failed validation.


Yes please!!
08/15/2007 01:45:32 PM · #7
Originally posted by Sheryll:

...Jawny helped me the most by suggesting ways to edit my shot which is why he has an interest in this.


Perhaps, but surely you realize that there exists a quantum leap between having an interest in something and casting aspersions on someone, which is exactly what he did.

Ray
08/15/2007 12:59:33 PM · #8
Because I do not look good in Pink Stripes.
08/15/2007 12:52:56 PM · #9
Let everyone discussing Sheryll's shot take it to another thread and get this one back on topic.

DQ - why wouldn't you request one?

BTW, it's not a request for DQ, it's a request for validation. A DQ is the result of a failed validation.
08/15/2007 12:12:55 PM · #10
Originally posted by Sheryll:

Apparently he is still unwilling to let it go... ...and REQUEST nicely that if he feels the need to comment further then he can begin his own thread on the topic of my shot.


I guess you didn't read this part?

edit to add.... dpl teams (team 5.0 - my team - is #61). Jawny helped me the most by suggesting ways to edit my shot which is why he has an interest in this. And I didn't ask you to remove your edits because I felt it was helpful in showing that you didn't improve on the shot at all and you didn't put your "money where your mouth was". They spoke for themselves.

Message edited by author 2007-08-15 12:21:06.
08/15/2007 09:26:25 AM · #11
Interesting. I was pretty sure I only sent you like two or three PM's. One to offer to put my money where my mouth is regarding the original and a re-edit, one to inform you that I posted the edits and maybe one other?

Whatever. I already told you that if you wanted the pics removed that I would do so WHEN I POSTED THE EDITS. I told you that in the PM regarding having posted the edited versions.

Why you didn't just tell me so in the first place is a little confusing. I will remove the edits as per your current request.

If you don't tell me that what I have posted is bothering you, then what can I possibly do about it? Otherwise, I simply carry on with my impression that you had no problem with our exchange. I had no reason to believe that you were offended until now. Leaving a comment marked unhelpful doesn't say as much as a simply PM saying 'hey, I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable with this - can you turn back down a notch?'.

I'm hardly obsessed with your shot, i mentioned it without direct reference in this thread and it was jumped upon by JawnyRico and turned back into him pointing fingers at me. He doesn't even appear to be on your DPL team. How is he privy to the details? weird. Anyways, I do appreciate the suggestion that I can post something about a photo leaving it nameless, then be jumped on by JawnyRico and whoever else, but somehow not have a right to respond without being called 'obsessive'. Great stuff.

Regarding the pics, I think we agreed to disagree a long time ago. No problems there.

Message edited by author 2007-08-15 09:34:44.
08/14/2007 11:57:49 PM · #12
apology not necesary at all.... you're absolutely right that it got off course.... (sent you a pm though).
08/14/2007 06:57:47 PM · #13
Sheryll...I want to thank you for your post in the thread. As I believe you saw my post near the end, after such a thoughtful post by you, I felt I owe you an apology of sorts.

I honestly was not aware of the controversy around your shot, even if of limited scope. I did not vote on or view all of those challenge entries. I do apologize for the direction the thread took with the spotlight on your image. Personally, I feel it is a beautiful image. But the thread went way beyond what I had sought to get feedback on at your expense. I had no specific image or comment in mind when I created this thread and thought I had made that clear.

08/14/2007 04:48:00 PM · #14
I'm sorry to the OP but this thread was recently brought to my attention and it seems to have gotten off topic a little but I as the photographer of the well discussed bird shot feel the need to comment here.

Eschalar did PM me first and as I didn't agree with his opinion and was quite proud of my shot I did provide him with the original sort of as a challenge in itself...... (okay go ahead show me...). My shot was done completely within the ruleset and I actually felt even complimented that he couldn't get the same results (though as he stated was not attempted).

I feel he went too far by posting his edit in the thread of the photo. I was very very careful in all my responses to him in that thread as well as in my pm responses. I really wanted to say much more that wasn't so nice but cautiously chose my wording. Instead I "vented" to my dpl teammates in our private thread which is why they have come to my defense in this thread. You may also notice that a very high percentage of comments left on my shots get checked as helpful but one of his was not checked as my nice way to let it go. In PM's after that he persistantly wanted me to defend the shot as to why it was not dnmc and I didn't respond at all because I truly wanted to say some -not so nice- things and chose instead to just drop it and let it go. Apparently he is still unwilling to let it go and I really don't get his obsession with my shot but I will answer him here once and REQUEST nicely that if he feels the need to comment further then he can begin his own thread on the topic of my shot.

As for how I feel it meets the challenge... The shot was taken at the zoo after a performance by this and other birds to educate people and the handlers were standing in front of a stage which held a sign. The shot I entered had that sign in the bg and several other shots I took that day did not. I felt that the one with that sign because of the color compared to the others with a darker bg really made this beautiful bird pop BECAUSE of the bg. And since the bird takes up about 1/4th of the entire shot I.... not my teammates..... "I" felt that it met the challenge both quantitatively and qualitatively (if that's a word). The editing (which was entirely within the ruleset by the way) was done with that sole purpose in mind - to use the color to create the pop and thus the wow of the bird in this shot. I believe that is exactly what the challenge was calling for if I'm not mistaken. In your previous post here you stated (and it reads as if you are stating fact and not an opinion) that... and I quote "there is nothing about the NS in that image that creates the wow. It is there, true, but the wow of the image comes from the bird." I submit to you that IN MY OPINION the wow of the bird comes from the way the bg/ns makes it pop.

As far as your comments about dpl and putting my teammates and the entire dpl down because you think they "chose" (your words not mine) that shot. Although I respect and admire my teammates in the dpl I am my own person and have my own opinions and make my own choices. I had a few shots that I thought fit the challenge and I posted those options and asked my teammates what they thought. They advised me which one they liked best and >>>>>> I <<<<<< chose which shot to enter. I pretty much already knew which one I was going to use but wanted confirmation and got it. I think you might be able to learn a few things if you joined a team who could help you grow instead of being jealous and obsessing on other peoples shots.

Now with respect to CEJ, the OP, and an attempt to get things back on track here I will say that I have wondered about how someone got their results during a challenge before but if it isn't something quite obvious then I do one of two things.... I vote as if it were legally accomplished or I pass it up. I don't vote down because I can't figure out how someone accomplished something. Oh.... and I don't get obsessed about it afterward either....
08/12/2007 04:36:19 AM · #15
I was referring to the statement that the picture ought to USE negative space to create the WOW of the image. There is nothing about the NS in that image that creates the wow. It is there, true, but the wow of the image comes from the bird. The challenge states that one must use negative space to create the wow. Not just take a picture of something neat. The picture is essentially the same regardless of how much negative space is present in the pic, therefore I felt that the pic, while it CONTAINED negative space, did not USE negative space. It stands out quite dramatically if viewed in context with the other 29 pics in the top 30.

The subject is a bird. True, the subject could be anything, but the bird is not significantly related in any way to the negative space of the image or impacted by it. It's a background with a generous crop. Hence my comment.

I would concede that because there exists a lot of negative space that the pic "almost" meets the challenge.

Anyways. That's just how I feel. You like the use of NS in that image, great. Point was that while I was editing it, I didn't push the button because I didn't see that any benefit would come of it.
08/11/2007 11:59:41 PM · #16
Originally posted by eschelar:

I further disliked another aspect of the shot and that was that this shot had been chosen by DPL teammates when it was quite clearly a bird shot in a Negative Space challenge. Don't like the challenge description? That's what the Free Study is for.


I don't understand that at all. A bird is not a valid subject for composing images that use negative space for impact? That's crazy! Is a flower OK? A wine glass? C'mon! You're saying, I guess, that "this is a bird-shot-that-uses-negative-space, not a negative-space-shot-using-a-bird-as-its-positive-subject"? Isn't that an awfully fine line to draw for making a DNMC judgment? I can see hammering it if it was ALL bird, but there IS quite a bit of negative space in the image and it is a strong, even dominant element of the composition, so surely you'd concede the image "approximately" meets the challenge, right?

And the voters, of course, collectively feel it meets the challenge, which in the end is what matters. Sometimes they can be flaky (the hummingbird in "Triumph", THAT one I can understand the mixed reactions), But as far as I am concerned the voters are right on this one; the bird's head image clearly meets the challenge IMO.

R.
08/11/2007 10:03:37 PM · #17
Hmm...sorry I started this thread. It seems to have gone way off course.
08/11/2007 03:08:31 AM · #18
Originally posted by JawnyRico:

You are the biggest hypocrite I have ever seen. First of all that shot you are talking about was incredible and a very rare shot. Your argument was that a top 10 shot DNMC. Yet everyone else thought it was incredible, then you left nasty comments on the shot. You frankly didn't like the shot, it wasn't that you thought it was not basic editing. I read every comment you made and it was very rude to that person. Curves, USM, and Color Balance are ALL LEGAL in basic editing. Leaving a comment like you did on the picture and not emailing the person in my eyes makes you out to be an ass....


hrmm. I wonder if it is fair for me to respond to this?

Ok, let's see.

The challenge was not "Incredible and Very Rare Bird Shots". The challenge was NEGATIVE SPACE - Use negative space to create the 'wow' of your image.

I did not think the shot was suited to that. (at least one other comment supports this)

Additionally, I thought the processing was overdone and unpleasant, having caused unnecessary graininess in the BG. (also supported by other comments)

I decided to put my money where my mouth was and have a go at editing it. I contacted the original photographer via PM (at the same time of my first comment) and was provided with an original to work with.

I did so. I stayed within Basic Editing rules and couldn't say for sure that anything I got was any better, although I personally felt that the overprocessing issue was addressed in my variants. I therefore posted what I came up with to provide some context. The comments were public, so I felt that making the pics public was suitable.

I did not suggest that curves, USM and other things were illegal in basic anywhere.

I further disliked another aspect of the shot and that was that this shot had been chosen by DPL teammates when it was quite clearly a bird shot in a Negative Space challenge. Don't like the challenge description? That's what the Free Study is for.

Originally posted by JR:

Leaving a comment like you did on the picture and not emailing the person in my eyes makes you out to be an ass....


Ok, quite early on, I posted re-edits from the original. Which could only have been provided by photographer. Requested with the use of the PM tool. Which you would have no idea if I had used or not.

So what does it make you out to be to have flared up like you did about me not having emailed someone when it is completely obvious that I must have contacted the OP at some point to obtain the originals?
08/11/2007 02:33:55 AM · #19
Originally posted by eschelar:

Recently, I came across a top ten shot which bothered me as I felt it was blatantly DNMC and I that I additionally felt was badly processed. I was surprised that it had come in so high, so I had a go at re-editing it with permission from the shooter. I was unable to obtain the same type of results with basic editing rules editing (although with advanced, I could have done it in about 30 seconds). I strongly considered pushing the validate button but chose not to. My processing goals were different, so in a way, I was also trying to have my cake and eat it too with the editing.


Yeah, I know that DNMC does not equal DQ. I never considered pushing the button until after I had a go at the processing from the original. I didn't find the same results because I had different goals in processing, but I did think it was a little odd that certain parts of the image looked quite a bit sharper as if a mask had been applied or something. I didn't go any further with it either in processing (to try to duplicate the results) or in pressing the button because I felt nothing would be gained by it. A bunch of time could have been spent messing around with USM and whatnot for nothing. Hence no press of the DQ button.

Originally posted by JawnyRico:

There were a lot of comments removed from the SC, as they should have been. On my part and his. And he went back after everyone called him out on it and rephrased his wording. I am done commenting on that shot. All it does is upset me that I came to DPC to learn and enjoy photography, but all I ever seem to read is people complaining about pics DNMC or aren't good enough for them instead of trying to give them help to improve the picture. Just take the thread about Spizzer's Humming Bird shot, "personal triumph does not mean triumph" someone said. So DNMC... It was the best picture, won and that was that.... Why make a crying thread over it. Are we in 2nd grade where jealousy controls our feelings and totally takes over to where we can't congratulate a person and move on to the next challenge? Whats DPC coming to.........The End... Edit to correct my horrible spelling. :)


Jawny, from what I have seen, the only comment that was removed was your own calling me names. None of my comments were removed or edited by the SC. After your comment was removed, I edited my comment to remove my reference to what you said and add that any futher discussion by yourself or others who disagreed should move to the forums.

Initially, I contacted her privately and had a go myself. I thought it fair to put my variations there for anyone else to see. I reported my own comments to the SC because I do not feel that any of that was a personal attack, nor did the person who took the picture. It was merely a difference of opinion over a single pic.

I was not the only one who noticed that the pic was DNMC if you read the other comments. Not one comment was made regarding the contribution of negative space. At least one other comment mentions the lack of any specific use of Negative space. Moreover, when I was reviewing the top and bottom 20 (as is my custom for each contest if I have time), another photographer who was with me at the time noticed the exact same thing as me quite independently.

On the other hand, you have repeatedly brought up my own skills and my own pictures with personal attacks heavily laced. Please try to control yourself and remember that people do have lives, do things, take pictures and such outside of DPC too.
08/10/2007 11:01:55 PM · #20
Originally posted by levyj413:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Your non-conformity is duly noted, catalogued, cross-referenced and filed. Keep your eyes open for the black car pulling up to your driveway.


I hear it's best if you go quietly. Otherwise, the outcome tends to be ... unpleasant.


I'm already gone. I'm in Canada, sleeping in bucket's darkroom. He won't mind.
08/10/2007 10:43:03 PM · #21
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Your non-conformity is duly noted, catalogued, cross-referenced and filed. Keep your eyes open for the black car pulling up to your driveway.


I hear it's best if you go quietly. Otherwise, the outcome tends to be ... unpleasant.
08/10/2007 09:35:24 PM · #22
Originally posted by Citadel:

When I see an image that I feel has broken the rules I make the request for validation and then I skip voting and commenting on it.

One quick question. Does the SC get annoyed with us Rules Freaks when we submit a bunch of pictures for validation? (Obviously if you do this to EVERY picture you'll get the DPC equivalent to a punch in the face...) I'm just curious because there were a couple of challenges I submitted a few (like 6)

Edit:spelling


Not really, no. We would rather you request validation/dq and let us investigate rather than sitting on it and it be illegal in some way.
08/10/2007 07:56:15 PM · #23
I do click the button. I vote as if it's legal as the rules tell me.
08/10/2007 07:45:29 PM · #24
Originally posted by posthumous:

If I spend time worrying about whether a particular photo meets all the rules, then that time is spent away from considerations that are integral to my character (e.g., "do I like this photo? Why or why not?"). You will often find that oppressive societies encourage their citizens to act as police, to turn each other in. This not only terrorizes nonconformists, it also dissolves the informant's sense of himself and turns him into an agent of the state.

Your non-conformity is duly noted, catalogued, cross-referenced and filed. Keep your eyes open for the black car pulling up to your driveway.

Originally posted by idnic:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Now, can this thread get back on topic and drop the finger pointing?

Hmmm What must that be like? A thread on topic AND no finger pointing would be like Christmas came early!

08/10/2007 06:45:02 PM · #25
When I see an image that I feel has broken the rules I make the request for validation and then I skip voting and commenting on it.

One quick question. Does the SC get annoyed with us Rules Freaks when we submit a bunch of pictures for validation? (Obviously if you do this to EVERY picture you'll get the DPC equivalent to a punch in the face...) I'm just curious because there were a couple of challenges I submitted a few (like 6)

Edit:spelling

Message edited by author 2007-08-10 18:45:28.
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