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12/01/2003 11:48:09 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
A (better) poll near the end or after the trial period is likely.
Also remember that it is completely possible to create "digital art" within the current rules:
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This was where I was trying to go with suggesting a poll about end results, rather than asking about means to an end -
I'd much rather see suggestions that would bias voting against shots like this, in favour of more 'straight' photography, while at the same time presenting no restrictions what so ever in terms of what tools are used.
The general mood seems to be against digital art, not against the screen blending mode. It would be good to address the destination, not the mode of transport. The trial changes are a good step in that direction. |
I wasn't trying to bias anyone in favor of "digital art,' just trying to point out (like you) that describing the ends rather than the means is more useful here.
The images I cited were NOT generally well-received at the time, and I have submitted fewer highly-modified images of late. But I don't think we need to be MORE biased than before ... I think everyone should just go on scoring photos by the same standards they have in the past.
The images I posted scored (not in order) 4.2, 4.5, 4.3, 5.0, 5.1
Interestingly, one of my best-received photos (5.6) was also pretty highly (but I thought appropriately) modified:
Golden Gate
Message edited by author 2003-12-01 23:48:58. |
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12/01/2003 11:31:19 PM · #2 |
Very cool, I think this will be a great experiment!
I for one really enjoy making small adjustments to my images just to make them the best they can be, and I think a lot of others feel the same way.
As far as "digital art" goes, I doubt the challenges will turn into highly modified entries because it's clear that most people here do NOT like digital art for these challenges, which is fine. I fell the same way most of the time but still enjoy digi-art from time to time, but don't think highly modified images will do well (which they shouldn't here).
Looking forward to this!!!
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12/01/2003 11:20:40 PM · #3 |
This was where I was trying to go with suggesting a poll about end results, rather than asking about means to an end -
I'd much rather see suggestions that would bias voting against shots like this, in favour of more 'straight' photography, while at the same time presenting no restrictions what so ever in terms of what tools are used.
The general mood seems to be against digital art, not against the screen blending mode. It would be good to address the destination, not the mode of transport. The trial changes are a good step in that direction. |
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12/01/2003 11:14:57 PM · #4 |
A (better) poll near the end or after the trial period is likely.
Also remember that it is completely possible to create "digital art" within the current rules:
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12/01/2003 10:50:32 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by alansfreed:
Originally posted by Natator:
I vote for a poll. Can we please have a poll to see if we should have another poll ;) |
Just as a note, this was once posed as a poll question, back in September of 2002. I'm sure the December test period will help sway people one way or another, so a new poll would undoubtedly be a more accurate representation... but here's what people thought back then:
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Yup, that's exactly where I was coming from Alan. The previous poll was, for want of a better term, uninformed.
A poll AFTER a trial would indeed be a good prepresentaion. I for one have an open mind on all this, and I'm not going to decide if I want this toi change or not until I see what the month brings.
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12/01/2003 10:46:28 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
December is Open Editing Month for Members!
This is your chance to show us the best your photos can be! As a trial, we are going to suspend all of the post-shot editing rules for the member challenges that start in December except for the "no text" rule. Members are reminded to hold photographic integrity in the highest regard when both submitting and voting. This trial is intended to allow the best quality photographs to be submitted -- without them looking like obviously manipulated digital art.
Challenges that are part of this trial will be marked with the red flag icon, and the rules in effect during the trial will be noted in the "Extra Rules" section -- please read these changes before submitting or voting!
Open challenges are not affected by this trial and those submissions must adhere to the normal post-shot editing restrictions. |
We opened the can of worms now,I hope will be only December and we will go back to normal again! :-) |
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12/01/2003 10:39:11 PM · #7 |
I also want to point out why I (who at this point is still straddling the fence on this issue but has primarily been a "don't change it" voice) wanted this "trial." And yes, it is a trial, meaning we are not changing everything until we see what happens. But, I digress.
In the few challenges we have had where open editing was allowed, there were entries that were obviously strong, but had some effect in them, just because they could. It's kinda like a taking a kid in a candy store and telling them everything is free. At first they go crazy. This, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this. After the novelty wears off, and things level out, the kid will take only what he really wants or needs, if any. (Okay, probably a bad analogy, but give me this one, will ya?)
The way I see it, we needed 4 or 5 challenges straight allowing editing so that you can see what the trend will be. You cannot tell a trend by one challenge, I don't think. Give it some time. Please.
This is a trial, it is only a trial. Had it been an actual emergency . . . |
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12/01/2003 08:58:29 PM · #8 |
| How about asking what people want to do with the tools, rather than what tools to use ? |
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12/01/2003 08:52:38 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Natator:
I vote for a poll. Can we please have a poll to see if we should have another poll ;) |
Just as a note, this was once posed as a poll question, back in September of 2002. I'm sure the December test period will help sway people one way or another, so a new poll would undoubtedly be a more accurate representation... but here's what people thought back then:
What kind of restrictions would you prefer for challenge submission?
No restrictions on editing 50
Unlimited use of filters, no spot editing 34
Limited use of filters only, spot editing allowed 56
Limited use of filters, no spot editing (like current rules) 213
More restrictive editing rules 37
390 users participated.
... for the record, I voted for "Limited use of filters only, spot editing allowed"
Message edited by author 2003-12-01 20:53:40. |
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12/01/2003 08:38:57 PM · #10 |
I was originally anti rule changes, but would now be more along the lines of liking the idea of minor edits, hot pixels removed etc.
Without seeing how it pans out, I THINK I like the new rules, as long as they are not abused.
I can however see huge arguments in the future around the "digital art" vs "photographic integrity" as everyone will see that differently, so I do predict an awful lot of the "Why did my photo do so badly, all the voters suck" threads, but moved into this new area.
I do, very much, hope that the next step would not be a further relaxation and it becomes an "anything goes" site. Using the frightening pic of Kiwi's brothers as an example ... love that photo, but would not want to see montages being legal for the challenges (other than a periodic fun one).
The argument some have put up about the people who want changes (like the traffic light example) always make the most noise while there is possibly a silent majority, is a very valid one.... the way round that is a poll, where everyone can quietly vote. As long as the poll is worded well then if you are not in the majority and thus do not get your way you have to at least accept that the majority of others may not agree with your view.
I am a little surprised, even though I like this change, that it may be the result of listening to the most noise, rather than what most people want, which a poll might have helped with.
What I would really like to see would be this .....
Run it for the next month and lets see what happens. I am hopeful we will see an increase in quality without a degeneration into digital art.
At the end of the month there is a simple solution .....
Ask members if they prefer the new way or not in a poll at the end of the month. By then people will have seen it woirk, or not work, and make valid decisions, rather than what they think might result.
I vote for a poll. Can we please have a poll to see if we should have another poll ;)
I can't see any valid objection to this, assuming the poll is worded well, unless it is someone who would rather ignore the majority view.[b]text
Message edited by author 2003-12-01 20:41:47.
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12/01/2003 08:34:54 PM · #11 |
Don't get me wrong guys/gals. I don't think this change will be a bad thing at all. I think it will just encourage me to do that much better and work that much harder. Everyone should just give it a chance as I am going to do.
I like your shapes entry, Gordon! LOL :-) 10 from me.
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12/01/2003 07:53:31 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
As far as your "preview" goes Gordon, I personally find it somewhat troubling that you were a fairly vocal supporter of getting the rules here on DPC relaxed |
I'd find it somewhat more troubling if you thought that was a serious example of a photograph. |
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12/01/2003 05:43:39 PM · #13 |
It will be interesting to see how the voters react, won't it?
If "digital art" wins, then we'll know that the voters like digital art and don't have a problem scoring it high. If "digital art" does poorly, then that should give a message to future submitters not to create digital art, shouldn't it? Sure somebody could submit "digital art", just like they can submit off-topic entries. But in the end, the voters determine what deserves to be on the front page.
Remember folks, this is just a trial. And it will last for 5 challenges (6 if you count the month-long free study challenge.) That will give us plenty of non "Open Editing Speed Challenge" to evaluate how this particular set of rules worked.
As far as your "preview" goes Gordon, I personally find it somewhat troubling that you were a fairly vocal supporter of getting the rules here on DPC relaxed (including making references to how you know several very good photographers who won't participate here because they find the rules "a joke"), and then you present an image in this thread that many would consider "digital art" -- the exact thing that the "don't change the rules" camp worry about taking over DPC.
Message edited by author 2003-12-01 17:44:48. |
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12/01/2003 05:26:35 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Refracted:
Originally posted by wackybill:
As been said before, I jus hope this doesn't turn into some type graphic design contest. |
it cant.. unless you break the rules, which state to keep photographic integrity in the highest regard. I know if i see one digital art piece, it's getting a 1. |
The challenge rules state "While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly." We already know that some people don't take this in to account, so why should it be any different with the photographic integrity rule?
Message edited by author 2003-12-01 17:27:24. |
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12/01/2003 05:24:37 PM · #15 |
Here's a preview of my shapes entry...
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12/01/2003 05:20:42 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Refracted:
Originally posted by wackybill:
As been said before, I jus hope this doesn't turn into some type graphic design contest. |
it cant.. unless you break the rules, which state to keep photographic integrity in the highest regard. I know if i see one digital art piece, it's getting a 1. |
At the risk of linking two threads together, it only says to keep in the highest regard. That doesn't actually make it a cast-iron requirement any more than meeting the challenge does. /sigh
My gut feeling is that the "no rules" brigade has won a big argument here, because the rules have been lifted in a much more drastic way than I expected to see - however, I'm more than happy to keep an open mind and see if I can't figure out a way to give negative votes to anything I see which is gross manipulation or digital art :) |
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12/01/2003 04:42:10 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by wackybill:
As been said before, I jus hope this doesn't turn into some type graphic design contest. |
it cant.. unless you break the rules, which state to keep photographic integrity in the highest regard. I know if i see one digital art piece, it's getting a 1.
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12/01/2003 04:40:07 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by wackybill:
I want to be able to do those awesome things that some do with Photoshop (I.e., kiwi's brothers). |
FYI, that shot would not have been legal, even with the new rules. It must originate from only 1 image.
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12/01/2003 04:29:54 PM · #19 |
I was fine with the site as it was and I'm sure I will be happy with the new rules if they are kept. As been said before, I jus hope this doesn't turn into some type graphic design contest. Not that I can keep up with those on this site now without the rules being lifted, I know I can not keep up with the Photoshop experts on the site. For example, the work Kiwi does blows me away.
However, if it does relax the rules enough that we can fix hot pixels, dust, etc. I'm all for it. Go with the flow is what I always say. :-)
On the other hand. I want to be able to do those awesome things that some do with Photoshop (I.e., kiwi's brothers). I'm willing to learn and am willing to listen to those who will teach. I would like to see more tutorials on the use of Photoshop (as well as other popular less expensive manipulation programs). I really want to learn how to successfully put myself into a photo multiple times without it looking like I took the scissor and glue to it. :-) And yes, I think this would be an excellent challenge but would not be at all fair to those that don't have the proper tools to work with.
I say let's all wait and see what comes out of this whole thing before we go and get pissed off about it. Who knows? Maybe we will like it. :-)
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12/01/2003 04:19:19 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
At first when I saw this I thought boy I can't wait till January when things get back to normal again, but I really don't expect it to go back to the way it was. So what good does complaining about it do? I'll just change the way I do things and wait and see... |
what do you have to change in the way you do things? rules are being lifted, not added.. you can keep on going as you were before..
These open editings doesn't mean you HAVE to use it... out of all my DPC entries, maybe only 2 or 3 would have needed any editing beyond the regular rules, the others were just fine. Having the choice to do that is nice though, and i know i've stopped myself from submitting a few times because i had done something "illegal" and couldn't get the photo i wanted otherwise...
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12/01/2003 04:08:15 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Judging from past statements in forums, some of them coming from past, current, and new Site Council members, there aren't many OPEN MINDS about in regards to this topic. Something tells me that this is a "done deal". No matter what happens in this month's member challenges, those that pushed so hard will declare it a flameing success and start patting themselves on the back for the way they have prevailed. |
Not all of the Site Council members are in favor of the new editing rules so hopefully they'll be able to help make sure that the final evaluation is based on something more than "woowee, we got what we wanted!"
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12/01/2003 04:07:47 PM · #22 |
I still believe that this site is about the essence of good photography, regardless of the rules. A good negative is always required for a good print. Since we are using digital cameras, I also still believe that learning how to finish a photo and how to improve your photo with digital tools is all part of the process.
We shouldn't really limit ourselves to the 1hr photo lab technique when we have much more than that at our disposal.
I agree that there are lots of people here who are very proficient with photoshop. Unfortunately, I am not one of them. What this will do for me is expand my knowledge and use of photoshop to make the best image I can from my original. If my original is no good, there is only so far I can go with it, no matter what tools I have.
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12/01/2003 04:06:10 PM · #23 |
harvey, we've corresponded a bit, as you know, and you seem like a nice guy, so maybe you can believe me when i tell you that I have been associated with this site for nearly 2 years now, and this dicussion has been undergone the entire time.
The point being that this wasn't a decision that was RUSHED into. Maybe you, and others, can find it in you, to understand that these are decisions and directions designed to take the site into GOOD directions, not bad.
After all, the site that you originally fell in love with did not spring fully formed from the head of a god, but rather was the result of much discussion and loving growth.
I suggest to all: just be patient.
:)
Originally posted by coolhar:
Judging from past statements in forums, some of them coming from past, current, and new Site Council members, there aren't many OPEN MINDS about in regards to this topic. |
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12/01/2003 04:00:09 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Judging from past statements in forums, some of them coming from past, current, and new Site Council members, there aren't many OPEN MINDS about in regards to this topic. |
I am doing my best to go into this with an open mind as a new member of Site Council. I have expressed views in the past that I would like to see SOME relaxation in the editing restrictions that would allow for dodging and burning, and hot pixel/dust elimination.
I have spoken out against the idea of lifting rules almost entirely as they're being done for the trial period, but I am very interested in seeing the results.
My view is that I hope that DP Challenge will continue to pursue the spirit of photography rather than "photo illustration." I can't speak for the creators of the DPC, but it seems to me that the site has been here for the purpose of improving photographic skills, primarily with the click of the shutter, rather than the mouse. I hope that this continues to be the "spirit" of the site.
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12/01/2003 03:58:09 PM · #25 |
"When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us."
--Alexander Graham Bell |
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