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03/05/2007 05:47:49 PM · #1 |
Well, submitted something and given the entries to date reckon I might even make the top 100! :-)
Interesting debate and I have to say a little disheartening, especially with the emphasis on "scientific proof". As noted earlier my background is heavy in the engineering/science space and I was always amused at how much of what I was taught as "absolute" was often empirical (e.g. aerodynamics - you really do not want to go there :-), and some that was obvious was almost impossible to prove (e.g. only 4 colours for a map was only proved recently using a super computer).
What is interesting is that drug companies, although they need to follow extensive scientific trials to introduce product to the market, still get it wrong and often badly so. I am all for science but have never seen it as absolute.
I can only go on what I have observed and experienced either directly or through those close and dear to me. While keyhole surgery for my angry gall bladder was always going to be preferred to, say, crystal therapy I will say that I nearly throttled the surgeon and anaesthetist after the operation with the pain I was left in, even though they claimed to have applied "scientific principles" to my anaesthesia. However, the acupuncture I received for my sinal problems was far more effective than the drug treatments I have received over many years. And so on.
Bottom line: if it works, use it! If it don't, then don't: don't be afraid to mix it either. |
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03/04/2007 08:42:31 PM · #2 |
Also, it should be pointed out that alternative medicine has a different definition of health than the medical kind.
For medical science, absence of disease is what's important and as such practitioners are knowledable in pathology.
Alternative medicine is more concerned, I believe, with robust good health and maximizing human potential. |
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03/04/2007 08:33:52 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Homeopathy certainly does not have the backing of the big drug companies that fund, along with the NIH, most clinical trials and so questions remain about it. Until money is forthcoming to study it in greater depth (which is obviosly not going to happen) people will have to go by anectodal reports. |
There have been quite a few trials - reliable trials (double blinded) do not support homeopathy. Surely it is open for homeopathists to demonstrate scientifically the validity of their practice? It is not only the labs that can conduct reliable trials. What are homeopathists waiting for? |
I believe the studies that were done for homeopathy were criticized for their design flaws and low sample populations and so were not conclusive either way. Pharmaceutical companies and governmental organizations have the kind of resources needed to carry these out to a meaningful conclusion. Clinical trials are very expensive and major projects to undertake, but still, at best, they are quaNitative in nature and their designs are reductionistic. While they do tell a part of the story, they are still open to interpretation and statistical manipulation and many times their results are "determined" by who is funding.
Wholistic and alternative practitioners would also need to carry out quaLitative studies that are anthropologic in nature and require much more time and resources. They too are very open to interpretation but give a broader picture.
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I don't see why people have such animosity towards alternative medicine, even if they don't believe it to work, as I do not believe that all of it is legit either, but one has to pick and choose wisely their medical treatments for what is right for them, and what they believe in. |
Originally posted by Matthew:
I am frustrated by many pseudosciences, not just alternative medicines. They are objectionable for many reasons, including their uses to scam people, profiteer, denigrate the value of scientifically demonstrable alternatives, damage people's wealth and potentially health (either because they don't seek proper treatment, or because they are engaged in untested, potentially dangerous procedures being implemented by unaccredited people with no requirement for formal training or even basic knowledge of safe practice). |
May I remind you that there are accredited practitioners with all the formal conventional training in the world who are equally dangerous. Such is the world we live in. I'm not exactly sure what pseudosciences you are speaking of that engage in "untested, potentially dangerous procedures being implemented by unaccredited people." I certainly would be against that as well, but we need to be careful that we don't elevate medical science to a religion with priests who are unapproachable, except on their own terms, who decide for us what is right and what is wrong. If anything, I would say that wholistic/alternative medicine is an attempt by practitioner, and patient alike, to take responsiblity for their own health and well being and to get in touch with nature. Alternative medicine, from what I know of it, acts more slowly in conjunction with natural cycles, and as such is alot harder to study. Like DrAchoo said above, and I agree with him on this point, most everyone nowadays wants the quick fix. They want the pain taken away and fast. They can't live with the consequences of their actions.
Medical science is now a business much greater than the alternative kind and has seen some amazingly bad results because of it. eg FenPhen |
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03/04/2007 08:31:56 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by maxaz1:
Originally posted by ralph:
hmmm.. leeches & trepanation
could be fun .. |
I don't think leeches are that "alternative" anymore. My daughter is an RN at Mayo Clinic, and uses them frequently. Now trepanation....I don't know about that. Wouldn't want to be the subject of THAT photo. |
sorry should have wrote what i was thinking (yes leeches can be very helpfull in limb reattachments & other things )
i should have wrote bloodletting ;)
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03/04/2007 07:00:08 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Sorry Olyuzi, I got your meaning wrong. I was deriding the alternative forms of medicine, not conventional medicine.
One problem escapetooz, is that it's a two-way street. I 100% agree that diet and exercise are a great treatment for hypertension, but the number of people who want to slog the work to lose that 40 pounds by eating right and exercising is small. Doctors are only going along with the "I need a pill to fix my problems" mentality of our society. So while we are not helping the issue, I don't think we are the root cause. |
Agreed, and it's very frustrating. Same thing with anything... crazy diet pills... well I can just munch this down every day and lose weight!
Ridilin for hyper kids. That's especially sad to me as the child doesn't have a choice really. Some I'm sure benefit from it but others are just children being children and will probably grow out of it (or have behavioral problems from bad parenting).
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03/04/2007 06:51:35 PM · #6 |
Sorry Olyuzi, I got your meaning wrong. I was deriding the alternative forms of medicine, not conventional medicine.
One problem escapetooz, is that it's a two-way street. I 100% agree that diet and exercise are a great treatment for hypertension, but the number of people who want to slog the work to lose that 40 pounds by eating right and exercising is small. Doctors are only going along with the "I need a pill to fix my problems" mentality of our society. So while we are not helping the issue, I don't think we are the root cause. |
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03/04/2007 06:45:38 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Homeopathy certainly does not have the backing of the big drug companies that fund, along with the NIH, most clinical trials and so questions remain about it. Until money is forthcoming to study it in greater depth (which is obviosly not going to happen) people will have to go by anectodal reports. |
There have been quite a few trials - reliable trials (double blinded) do not support homeopathy. Surely it is open for homeopathists to demonstrate scientifically the validity of their practice? It is not only the labs that can conduct reliable trials. What are homeopathists waiting for?
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I don't see why people have such animosity towards alternative medicine, even if they don't believe it to work, as I do not believe that all of it is legit either, but one has to pick and choose wisely their medical treatments for what is right for them, and what they believe in. |
I am frustrated by many pseudosciences, not just alternative medicines. They are objectionable for many reasons, including their uses to scam people, profiteer, denigrate the value of scientifically demonstrable alternatives, damage people's wealth and potentially health (either because they don't seek proper treatment, or because they are engaged in untested, potentially dangerous procedures being implemented by unaccredited people with no requirement for formal training or even basic knowledge of safe practice). |
And what about the deaths caused by drugs that have been approved and tested? My friends grandmother actually died from a medication that was later recalled.
Besides that... talking about wasting money. Doctors are so quick to pump everyone with meds these days and that costs a lot of money. Half the time it's not needed... such as blood pressure meds when exercise and eating right would solve the problem on it's own.
Just take a little look in to psychiatric meds and it's scary how many people are wrongly diagnosed with schizophrenia, depression, bi-polar disorder, ADHD, etc and are just pumped full of meds that mess with their bodies and often make things worse.
Don't get me wrong. Medications ARE helpful when used correctly for correctly diagnosed ailments. It just seems there are MANY people out to make a quick buck. Homeopathic or western practitioners. |
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03/04/2007 06:36:40 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Homeopathy certainly does not have the backing of the big drug companies that fund, along with the NIH, most clinical trials and so questions remain about it. Until money is forthcoming to study it in greater depth (which is obviosly not going to happen) people will have to go by anectodal reports. |
There have been quite a few trials - reliable trials (double blinded) do not support homeopathy. Surely it is open for homeopathists to demonstrate scientifically the validity of their practice? It is not only the labs that can conduct reliable trials. What are homeopathists waiting for?
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I don't see why people have such animosity towards alternative medicine, even if they don't believe it to work, as I do not believe that all of it is legit either, but one has to pick and choose wisely their medical treatments for what is right for them, and what they believe in. |
I am frustrated by many pseudosciences, not just alternative medicines. They are objectionable for many reasons, including their uses to scam people, profiteer, denigrate the value of scientifically demonstrable alternatives, damage people's wealth and potentially health (either because they don't seek proper treatment, or because they are engaged in untested, potentially dangerous procedures being implemented by unaccredited people with no requirement for formal training or even basic knowledge of safe practice).
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03/04/2007 06:30:08 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Another note... someone can check me on this because I'm not 100% sure but I beleive that for a new medicine to be considered viable by the FDA it only has to be AS effective as a placeabo.
To me that's a scary thought. That people could be putting some harmful stuff into their bodies and it does not much more good than a sugar pill. |
This is completely untrue. |
I searched for about an hour on the FDA site among others and couldn't find the requirements for this at all... however I did find A LOT of reports that found many drugs that HAD been approved were no more affective than placebos. This was mostly the case in psychiatric drugs. I actually heard this piece of information from my Abnormal Psych professor so perhaps it applies only to pyshciatric drugs.
Either way. It's not completely untrue. It has a lot of truth to it. Please find me the sources you have against this.
Just google "no more effective than placebo" and you will be amazed at what you see.
Article
Message edited by author 2007-03-04 18:30:51. |
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03/04/2007 06:25:24 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Brielle:
However, it DOES improve circulation, it DOES relieve stress, and both of those do wonders for the human immune system. And yes, that has been proven. This works much like lymphatic massage, which is used widely by both doctors and nurses. |
I have no problem with people going for a massage (at the price of a massage - nothing more) - I agree that they are relaxing. I do have a problem with someone saying that they can sense liver issues (or even worse ease them) because there is a stiffness in the 4th toe on the left foot (or somesuch).
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03/04/2007 06:24:56 PM · #11 |
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03/04/2007 04:55:51 PM · #12 |
| At this point I need to take a break and stretch my legs a bit. I've been in front of this computer the whole afternoon and need to get out for the freshly polluted air (lol) we have here on Long Island. But I will certainly rejoin later this evening. Have a nice rest of the afternoon, what ever is left of it. |
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03/04/2007 04:52:29 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Basically I hold a special place for homeopathy as the worst of alternative medicine modalities. It has great potential to do harm as well as the fact that it is "medicine" and so comes with a general understanding that this treatment is in lieu of conventional medicines and not in conjugation with it.
You can't just say, "there is good to be gotten from allopathy" without having something to back it up. I wonder what you have to back that statement up? |
I am referring to Allopathy being conventional modern medicine, not the alternative kind. There is certainly good to be gotten from modern medicine practitioners. Or is your statement asking me to prove there is bad in modern medicine?
Sorry, I don't see the "great potential to do harm" in Homeopathy as you do. Seems that your opinion is based soly on the fact that it is done in lieu of conventional medicine, which I'm not sure is accurate, or is there something else I'm missing?
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03/04/2007 04:23:49 PM · #14 |
Basically I hold a special place for homeopathy as the worst of alternative medicine modalities. It has great potential to do harm as well as the fact that it is "medicine" and so comes with a general understanding that this treatment is in lieu of conventional medicines and not in conjugation with it.
You can't just say, "there is good to be gotten from allopathy" without having something to back it up. I wonder what you have to back that statement up? |
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03/04/2007 04:17:31 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
What specific far flung claims are you aware of that legitimate and certified alternative practioners are making? |
How about this from the "acclaimed guide to homeopathy"?
Homeopathic remedies (also called homeopathics) are a system of medicine based on three principles:
Like cures like
For example, if the symptoms of your cold are similar to poisoning by mercury, then mercury would be your homeopathic remedy.
Minimal Dose
The remedy is taken in an extremely dilute form; normally one part of the remedy to around 1,000,000,000,000 parts of water.
The Single Remedy
No matter how many symptoms are experienced, only one remedy is taken, and that remedy will be aimed at all those symptoms.
I didn't hunt for it either, I found that in less than 60 seconds of searching... |
There is no doubt that this basic tenet of homeopathy has NOT been confirmed and that few scientific studies have been undertaken to support it. Homeopathy certainly does not have the backing of the big drug companies that fund, along with the NIH, most clinical trials and so questions remain about it. Until money is forthcoming to study it in greater depth (which is obviosly not going to happen) people will have to go by anectodal reports.
I don't see why people have such animosity towards alternative medicine, even if they don't believe it to work, as I do not believe that all of it is legit either, but one has to pick and choose wisely their medical treatments for what is right for them, and what they believe in. Certainly, allopathic medicine has not shown its efficacy in all ailments, and has shown many times over to have deleterious effects and has resulted in deaths and debilitation. There is much politics, inaccuracies of reporting of clinical trails, aggressive marketing, etc. of modern medicine. There is good to be gotten from allopathy, but much bad as well. At least, as far as I know, most of the alternative therapies do not have negative effects.
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03/04/2007 04:10:44 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Puckzzz:
I turned in my photo the day before yesterday, and also wrote to the SC to ask them if they could have a look at it to see if it was within the rules. haven't gotten an anwser back from them so I'm guessing it is... |
well, they got back to me. I'm VERY dissapointed, but I've had to withdraw my entry. If only people were as openminded as we are here in Holland. damn...
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03/04/2007 03:58:45 PM · #17 |
| I think a holistic approach to medicine is most in tune with my own thoughts, treat the body, mind and spirit. However, I also believe that 'ionized' bracelets, crystals, and magnets are 100% wishful thinking. But sometimnes, just the belief that something will work is sufficient to effect a 'cure'! |
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03/04/2007 03:16:14 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
What specific far flung claims are you aware of that legitimate and certified alternative practioners are making? |
How about this from the "acclaimed guide to homeopathy"?
Homeopathic remedies (also called homeopathics) are a system of medicine based on three principles:
Like cures like
For example, if the symptoms of your cold are similar to poisoning by mercury, then mercury would be your homeopathic remedy.
Minimal Dose
The remedy is taken in an extremely dilute form; normally one part of the remedy to around 1,000,000,000,000 parts of water.
The Single Remedy
No matter how many symptoms are experienced, only one remedy is taken, and that remedy will be aimed at all those symptoms.
I didn't hunt for it either, I found that in less than 60 seconds of searching...
Message edited by author 2007-03-04 15:16:47. |
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03/04/2007 03:15:20 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
- they are clearly absurd and should not be tolerated. Numerology, reflexology etc are equally absurd. If they work, then their efficacy would be demonstrable - but for some reason we are asked to tolerate them. |
For one thing, numerology has absolutely nothing to do with natural health. Its a way of profiling someone's personality based on birth dates and times. For another, as a Reflexologist, I have never claimed to be able to magically rid someone of an ailment. However, it DOES improve circulation, it DOES relieve stress, and both of those do wonders for the human immune system. And yes, that has been proven. This works much like lymphatic massage, which is used widely by both doctors and nurses.
Message edited by author 2007-03-04 15:16:21. |
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03/04/2007 03:14:19 PM · #20 |
Wasn't all mainstream medicine considered "alternative" at some time?
(btw, I'm very much a follower of conventional medicine. About the limit of my ventures into alternate treatments were visits to a chiropractor on the advice of my doctor.) |
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03/04/2007 03:11:03 PM · #21 |
What do you mean by "shown to help"? I would imagine verifyable results. So far so good. I respect and accept those alternative therapies. Everything else, though, goes in the same basket, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, my examples may look far flung and crazy to you and me, but they are not for other people. Vice versa for other beliefs.
Crystals and gemstones are one example.
Harry |
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03/04/2007 02:56:15 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by hsolakidis:
It's just claims people make without scientific proof. EXACTLY like some alternative medicine practices.
Happy now? |
I don't think that the claims that many alternative practitioners make are as far flung as the links you've posted, and to make a comparison seems to me to intentionally try to disparage alternative practitioners and their practices. While some alternative practices lack scientific inquiry not all do and some have been shown to help, as the examples above attest to. What specific far flung claims are you aware of that legitimate and certified alternative practioners are making?
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03/04/2007 02:37:36 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Another note... someone can check me on this because I'm not 100% sure but I beleive that for a new medicine to be considered viable by the FDA it only has to be AS effective as a placeabo.
To me that's a scary thought. That people could be putting some harmful stuff into their bodies and it does not much more good than a sugar pill. |
This is completely untrue. |
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03/04/2007 02:02:51 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Brielle:
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I am the last to say otherwise. |
I'm never convinced by this - nor the suggestion that alternative "medicine" should be tolerated. jan_vdw brought up some of the more extreme alternative therapies - the fact that someone believes in them does not justify them - they are clearly absurd and should not be tolerated. Numerology, reflexology etc are equally absurd. If they work, then their efficacy would be demonstrable - but for some reason we are asked to tolerate them. The fact that no-one has been able to show that these things work should be a big clue as to their validity. The fact that traditional teaching of these arts bears no relationship to known biology, should be a big clue that it is made up nonsense.
What can be demonstrated is the power of placebo (it is ironic that escapetooz is alarmed by the idea that drugs have to be only a little more effective than a sugar pill, when all alternative medicines have been shown to be less, or no more effective). What can be seen is the strength of desire for people to believe that they can be cured when sometimes they cannot (though they can be relieved of cash in the process).
I find it amazing that people think that western medicine only cures symptoms, not causes. I can think of fairly little medical procedure that is purely palliative.
I do agree that human companionship is an important but sometimes lacking aspect of western medical practice (usually for financial reasons).
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03/04/2007 01:52:14 PM · #25 |
It's just claims people make without scientific proof. EXACTLY like some alternative medicine practices.
Happy now? |
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