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01/13/2007 08:56:41 AM · #1 |
I actually gave scores of 10 and 7 to TWO full colour shots in this B&W Portrait II challenge and I think they deserved those scores and IMO lived up to the Challenge Title even if they did step outside the box. I am not saying everyone will agree with me but, the challenge did not have any Details on it to narrow it to a particular style of photography necessarily. Yet ... I gave 4's to several sepia toned shots as I did not feel that THEY met the challenge. Go figure. It just seemed right to score these this way ...
... edited to change Description to Details.
Message edited by author 2007-01-13 09:00:09. |
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01/10/2007 11:29:45 AM · #2 |
But it is also abundantly clear that if you do decide to warm or cool tone your B&W, you are way outside the literal interpretation & colouring outside the lines of acceptable behaviour for a B&W challenge.
It's always been like that in B&W challenges here, no reason its going to change any time soon.
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01/10/2007 11:22:54 AM · #3 |
Probably shouldn't add fuel to the fire, but have to offer an opinion...
While we are shooting digital today, photography as form of communication does have a history and heritage based on film. B&W photography is a very strong part of that heritage from a number of perspectives, including photojournalism, reportage and fine art. This heritage should not be ignored when we are given the opportunity to shoot in a B&W challenge.
If you look at this heritage, there is a color process and there is B&W or monochrome process. There are many toning and printing techniques that start with B&W film and from my perspective they remain B&W because their foundation is B&W, despite the fact that the printing or toning may introduce color.
In the digital age I will still consider an image to be B&W as long as the color was removed and discarded at one point during the processing. Any toning added after is simply toning applied to a B&W image.
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01/10/2007 11:03:03 AM · #4 |
I've found this article pretty useful.
Sepia is certainly a whole lot browner than most B&W photos are.
But I don't think I've ever seen an actually neutral B&W print in a gallery - at least not a good one.
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01/10/2007 10:49:48 AM · #5 |
| When I use B&W film it and take it to get developed, it has some black, some white and the gray in between. If I had remembered to enter a photo last night, it would have been just that. IMO, sepia has color I wouldn't include that type of photo in this challenge. It would be fun to have a challenge that it B&W with color accent/selective desat. |
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01/08/2007 01:30:48 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by idnic:
From a voters' point of view - The challenge is Black & White Portrait - not Black & White and Blue.... or red or anything else...... so leaving a touch of color will likely not score well with voters like me. |
i think that's a fair point ... but challenge rules suggest people are open minded about their interpretation of whether an entry meets the challenge.
if a photograph did have some colour in it, but it was very clever or artistic, then i wouldn't vote it down. i would actually give it bonus points for being original and creative.
but i'd expect most entries to be purely b&w ...
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01/07/2007 06:55:09 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
What absolutely blows my mind is something so simple, obvious...something a 5 year old could pick out...a b/w image is beings questioned as to its meaning. You guys are seriously scaring me in regards to the general understanding of such a simple idea. Wow... |
What's scary is all the people that think understanding black and white is... well, black and white. LOL!
I use to do REAL black and white using Lithographic film back in the 70's. Start with a high contrast slide, print to a sheet of Litho, contact print it a few more times on Litho film and you end up with only blacks and whites... no mid tones at all. Made for great bas relief (also known as pen and ink) photos. Even got a couple of nice awards in 1976 in experimental photography from the Air Force. Of course it's a snap to do today with Photoshop, which takes all the fun out of it.
Anyway, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, nor will my mind be changed on how and what I think of black and white. I spent too many years shooting it, processing it and printing it. I even have a few hundred feet of Tri-X bulk film packed away from the 70's. Still sealed away in their foil packs and large tin canasters. I figure it's worth more for it's silver content than anything. :D
Like several have said, no matter who is right or wrong, the voters will make the final determination as to what they accept as their choice for ribbons. And that will be regardless of if they know what they are voting on or not... or why. LOL!
Mike
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01/07/2007 05:38:17 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
What absolutely blows my mind is something so simple, obvious...something a 5 year old could pick out...a b/w image is beings questioned as to its meaning. You guys are seriously scaring me in regards to the general understanding of such a simple idea. Wow... |
No question here. I know what a B&W image is just fine. I see them often in fine galleries and in print. They are beautiful and I will vote with that in mind. ;-) |
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01/07/2007 05:31:52 PM · #9 |
What absolutely blows my mind is something so simple, obvious...something a 5 year old could pick out...a b/w image is beings questioned as to its meaning. You guys are seriously scaring me in regards to the general understanding of such a simple idea. Wow...
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01/07/2007 05:20:58 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by sodoff:
Whoa! Bitchy. Do what you like, don't get heavy with me cos I don't agree with your ideas! I stated how I will vote, that is my choice as a paid up member here. If you disagree, that's up to you. And don't presume to judge me by you own standards! |
Wasn't meant to sound bitchy, just an observation. As I've already said, tinting has always been used in B&W photography and thus IMHO fits this challenge 100%. As I have also already stated, I will use my vote accordingly with that in mind and would expect you to do the same using your own criteria.
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01/07/2007 05:17:19 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by tooohip:
Originally posted by sodoff:
If you want a blue tint or a sepia tint, then so be it! Man, why do we have this stupid questioning of every challenge, just to shoe horn an idea to fit. Just ask Langdon to make a B&W challenge with a blue tint! I know what I think B&W is, that's how I will vote and that's what counts at the end of the day! |
Because people such as yourself obviously can't even think "inside" the box. How is a B&W image with a slight tint shoe horning??? Tinting has always been used on B&W photographs and thus meets this challenge just fine. |
Whoa! Bitchy. Do what you like, don't get heavy with me cos I don't agree with your ideas! I stated how I will vote, that is my choice as a paid up member here. If you disagree, that's up to you. And don't presume to judge me by you own standards! |
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01/07/2007 05:16:31 PM · #12 |
So what about something like this?
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01/07/2007 05:05:33 PM · #13 |
I still have some of that paper... I've thought about selling it on e-bay, but it is WAY out of date.
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01/07/2007 05:04:24 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by sodoff:
If you want a blue tint or a sepia tint, then so be it! Man, why do we have this stupid questioning of every challenge, just to shoe horn an idea to fit. Just ask Langdon to make a B&W challenge with a blue tint! I know what I think B&W is, that's how I will vote and that's what counts at the end of the day! |
Because people such as yourself obviously can't even think "inside" the box. How is a B&W image with a slight tint shoe horning??? Tinting has always been used on B&W photographs and thus meets this challenge just fine. |
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01/07/2007 05:00:09 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by sodoff:
B&W is just that, a range from black to white...all the GREY scale as well. Sepia is brown, no way is it B&W. Wriggle all you like, sepia will never be and can never be B&W! |
If I remember correctly Kodak's paper had a blue tint to the "grays" ... so you are saying all those photos I took in college are not B&W? |
There's a magazinge, Black and White Photography, in this latest issue they had an ad trying to get people to donate or something (I'm fuzzy on the details) to convince a manufacturer to start making that film again since kodak discontinued it. I love that look, I always add about +3 cyan to black and neutral via selective color. Stick it in your ear whoever thinks its dnmc.
Message edited by author 2007-01-07 17:00:51. |
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01/07/2007 04:56:06 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by sodoff:
B&W is just that, a range from black to white...all the GREY scale as well. Sepia is brown, no way is it B&W. Wriggle all you like, sepia will never be and can never be B&W! |
If I remember correctly Kodak's paper had a blue tint to the "grays" ... so you are saying all those photos I took in college are not B&W? |
We aren't using Kodak paper anymore. If you want a blue tint or a sepia tint, then so be it! Man, why do we have this stupid questioning of every challenge, just to shoe horn an idea to fit. Just ask Langdon to make a B&W challenge with a blue tint! I know what I think B&W is, that's how I will vote and that's what counts at the end of the day! |
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01/07/2007 04:52:26 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by sodoff:
B&W is just that, a range from black to white...all the GREY scale as well. Sepia is brown, no way is it B&W. Wriggle all you like, sepia will never be and can never be B&W! |
If I remember correctly Kodak's paper had a blue tint to the "grays" ... so you are saying all those photos I took in college are not B&W?
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01/07/2007 04:51:13 PM · #18 |
| Where is Ansel Adams when you need him? |
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01/07/2007 04:50:36 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by sodoff:
B&W is just that, a range from black to white...all the GREY scale as well. Sepia is brown, no way is it B&W. Wriggle all you like, sepia will never be and can never be B&W! |
B&W with Sepia is just good B&W photography if done right and thus fits this challenge perfectly as well. Again, my opinion and I will vote accordingly. |
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01/07/2007 04:48:03 PM · #20 |
B&W is just that, a range from black to white...all the GREY scale as well. Sepia is brown, no way is it B&W. Wriggle all you like, sepia will never be and can never be B&W!
Message edited by author 2007-01-07 16:48:20. |
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01/07/2007 04:41:59 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by zxaar:
could you tell me how did you search it. |
The "find" method isn't working for me (changes to IE, I wonder?) so I just started at the bottom of the list in Challenge History and worked up 'til I saw it. |
If you select some text on the page and then use the Find command it will work. |
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01/07/2007 04:27:25 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by mattforbes:
Can't we all just get along? |
We tried that once... it got boring ;-)
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01/07/2007 04:24:05 PM · #23 |
| Can't we all just get along? |
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01/07/2007 04:18:46 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
I can pretty much assure everyone that if I enter, I won't be using neutral gray for my B&W. I likely won't go so far as to sepia tone it, but it will likely be a "warm gray".
FWIW, an image that is only desaturated will get a lot lower vote from me than a sepia image. |
Aye. I don't have an entry, but my b/w shots are rarely pure b/w. I usually push them into very slight duotones. It usually deepens the shadows and highlights the textures just a touch (shadows into blue, midtones into red, highlights into yellow, never more than 5% in any direction), but the color shift is so slight that the perception is still b/w. |
Which gives a lot of depth to the image.
To me, B&W isn't about grayscales, it's about reproducing the feel of B&W photography (which was NEVER greyscale).
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01/07/2007 04:15:14 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by MikeJ:
By the way, sepia is a process that is applied to a black and white photograph. You don't "take" sepia images, you "take" black and white or color or infared or x-ray or what ever images. But sepia is a process that is added to the image afterwards to tone it or stablize it so it archives longer. In it's original use (I know a lot of people only know of film from the history books now) sepia was used to replace the silver in the print with silver sulphide. I use to do a lot of sepia toning back in the darkroom days (darkroom being where the old fashion photographers use to create their images after they took them). It's a smelly process, that's for sure.
It was always associated with black and white photographs. Times have changed, and today, with digital manipulation, people create sepia images directly from their color images. So I can see where a lot of the confussion comes from. And since this is a "digital" forum, I suppose that the belief that black and white and sepia have nothing in common is appropriate. Us older photographers just look at it a bit different.
Mike |
Thank you - these threads drive me crazy. I still sepia tone black and white prints. |
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